From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[sw85]

I posted the subject of scandal out of charity. If one is publicly and repeatedly disagreeing with the teachings of the Church, it seems prudent to me to examine one’s own conscience and talk (note I said talk, not confess) with one’s own confessor to seek guidance and counsel, especially concerning grave matter.

I don’t think that would have the effect you seem to think; she’s mentioned once before her confessor advised her to use birth control.

Personally, I’ve given up trying to make the case (not that any of my posts were being replied to, anyway). How you appear in an argument matters, and we are evidently always going to look like legalistic naysaying feudalists out to ruin young couples’ marriages, and will be mocked as such.

 

[Corki]

Scandal—Scandal is an attitude or behavior that leads another to do evil. If someone is deliberately lead into a grave offense, that person’s tempter commits a grave sin (CCC 2284 and 2285). Jesus said, “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believes in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea” (Matthew 18:6).

General question: Are some of the posts in this thread scandalous? No reply to me, please. Simply ask yourself this question, examine your conscience and talk with your confessor.

I posted the subject of scandal out of charity. If one is publicly and repeatedly disagreeing with the teachings of the Church, it seems prudent to me to examine one’s own conscience and talk (note I said talk, not confess) with one’s own confessor to seek guidance and counsel, especially concerning grave matter.

Fallibly, yes, she does. It is authoritative non infallible teaching, which must admit therefore at least some degree of possible error, and admit of the possibility of prayerful, respectful private dissent.

When dissent is posted on a discussion forum where many people might read it who are less informed about their faith, you run the risk of spreading false teaching and leading others to sin. We have seen time and time again here on CAF where someone with a malformed conscience is affirmed in their sin and “consoled” in their decisions by those exercising “private” dissent. That’s giving scandal.

The anonymity of a forum such as this might mitigate the sin of dissenting against the Church but does not lessen the sin of giving scandal.

 

[Blacksword]

There’s a few people that just can’t resist an NFP thread as an opportunity to challenge Church teaching. Patience, brother.

I resent this insinuation. I rarely get involved in NFP discussions, and to both of you, this thread was highjacked LONG before I got involved in it, thank you very much. But i wish both of you well despite your implying I’m a heretic. God bless you.

 

[Blacksword]

When dissent is posted on a discussion forum where many people might read it who are less informed about their faith, you run the risk of spreading false teaching and leading others to sin. We have seen time and time again here on CAF where someone with a malformed conscience is affirmed in their sin and “consoled” in their decisions by those exercising “private” dissent. That’s giving scandal.

The anonymity of a forum such as this might mitigate the sin of dissenting against the Church but does not lessen the sin of giving scandal.

And my quote above was on general teaching authority levels and could be applied to many unrelated things. I made no specific recommendation on behavior. And this is off-topic, why don’t you give the OP some positive experiences you’ve had with NFP and I will happily listen.

 

[Corki]

And my quote above was on general teaching authority levels and could be applied to many unrelated things. I made no specific recommendation on behavior. And this is off-topic, why don’t you give the OP some positive experiences you’ve had with NFP and I will happily listen.

You are confusing the sin of leading someone directly into sin themselves and the sin of scandal. The latter does not mean you “recommend” a sin but that by your actions you lead someone to believe that something is right when it is really wrong.

As for your request, they are many and I will compose my thoughts and return to this thread later to post them.

 

[Bookcat]

Now of course the comment can come where someone says “contraception is good for my marriage”. My experience of it is good.

Not to get into the all the details that it is not good…(one can read all sorts of books etc on the subject)…instead lets look at the general idea of something being good that in fact is an objectively grave evil. Where a person may think their “experience” justifies such an action.

Lets use a different moral issue (though still a grave matter like Contraception) Sometimes this helps …and though they are fictional…and hopefully more far fetched then real (though given our world it is possible) …I hope they will help.

Leo and Sally are married…they are engaged in adultery with others…and are very unhappy. They have a conversion …and repent of their deeds and set out to follow Christ faithfully and to be faithful to each other. The find this really also helps their marriage. And they find that they have new life in him here…and look forward to being with him…happy they are not longer living in a way that would send them to hell but are following he who is life. Many like couples experience the same and objectively they are doing good.

Sam and Sue are married. Their marriage is troubled. They are always fighting about Sam’s unhappiness about Sue not want sexual relations so often. They are terribly unhappy. Sam prays about it…and decides that God will understand if he finds a companion on the side for the sake of his family…heck men have done so in all ages. Sam decides to have an affair on the side. The fighting practically goes away entirely…the affair continues for years and years…and they report their marriage is now happy. Sam in a discussion with a friend with similar problems…suggests he get a girl on the side…for this has saved their marriage and they are now happy…and when he later meets with his friend…he finds his friend has had the same experience…so he is confirmed in his feeling…I had to save my family…it was good for my marriage…

So it can be said that some find that adultery is helpful to their marital happiness…

Does that make it “good”?

No.

Can there be spiritual consequences to such…yes …of the most grave kind.

The ends do not justify the means.

Adultery and other gravely evil proposals are well… evil …they are contrary to God…and even if someone experiences some “temporal” happiness …even if they think “this will help my marriage”…or “this is good for such and such”…“I need to do such and such otherwise such and such will happen”…

It is the age old thing that the Bible talks about…the choosing of some temporal or “apparent” happiness…over God and true happiness…true life.

Now is it possible that they have a really erroneious conscience that God will take into account?..it is possible…is it possible for some other things to reduce the culpability?..yes it is…but I would not count on either…for often we can be at least guilty along the way in getting there… (read Pope Benedict XVI in Spe Salvi!) and these are very dangerous waters…to say the least…and we have a duty to correct a conscience in error…

Many though perhaps listen to their feelings or even rationalize things away…and think in terms of the temporal good…“this helps my marriage” …“I need to do what the Church thinks is wrong but it is the Church that is wrong” (misunderstanding the nature of the Church and her authority etc)…or “If I do not do X …Y will happen and Y will be bad for me or for my family”…etc…

Such is not the way to go…we are to find another way…the right way.

A “temporal benefit” …a “temporal happiness”…is not necessarily a true happiness and certainly not the final happiness we are called to. A temporal happiness is not worth the exchange.

Jesus is very clear though: what does it profit for a man to gain the whole world…and loose his soul…? ( see Mark 8:36)

 

[Debora123]

The central point to this thred was hijacked. I’m really tired of the posters venting on why nfp don’t work start your own thred That being said I have a homesexual friend who claims to have a healty lovemaking sex life. Who am I to say otherwise?

Respectfully, you yourself contributed to this when you specifically and personally asked ME questions about why NFP didn’t work for me. Just sayin.

Also, I didn’t realize that the opposing side couldn’t give their personal views/opinions on controversial thread subjects. My mistake.

PS - homosexuals can’t have sex.

 

[Bookcat]

PS - homosexuals can’t have sex.

They will tell you that they have a healthy sex life.

Sound familiar?

 

[sw85]

Respectfully, you yourself contributed to this when you specifically and personally asked ME questions about why NFP didn’t work for me. Just sayin.

Also, I didn’t realize that the opposing side couldn’t give their personal views/opinions on controversial thread subjects. My mistake.

PS - homosexuals can’t have sex.

Why? Because the Church says they can’t? Because it’s contrary to natural law? Why are those facts valid with respect to homosexuality but not contraception?

As I’ve said over and over again (and to which no one has responded), you cannot reject the Church’s teachings on contraception without calling into question their teachings on everything else about sexual morality. They all derive from the same philosophical tradition and therefore they all stand or fall together.

 

[SwizzleStick]

I don’t think that would have the effect you seem to think; she’s mentioned once before her confessor advised her to use birth control.

Personally, I’ve given up trying to make the case (not that any of my posts were being replied to, anyway). How you appear in an argument matters, and we are evidently always going to look like legalistic naysaying feudalists out to ruin young couples’ marriages, and will be mocked as such.

I guess you are probably correct.

Truly, I am trying to be charitable and looking out for others. I have advised looking inward at self and examining conscience. I have done that myself, and I am not judging or accusing or anything like that. But, true charity requires speaking up in support of the teachings of the Church and advising others to follow those teachings.

 

[SwizzleStick]

You are confusing the sin of leading someone directly into sin themselves and the sin of scandal. The latter does not mean you “recommend” a sin but that by your actions you lead someone to believe that something is right when it is really wrong. …

Thank you for this. The meaning of scandal is sometimes misunderstood, so I think this helps clarify.

 

[Bookcat]

But, true charity requires speaking up in support of the teachings of the Church and advising others to follow those teachings.

Pope Benedict XVI speaks of “intellectual charity”

 

[Corki]

Why? Because the Church says they can’t? Because it’s contrary to natural law? Why are those facts valid with respect to homosexuality but not contraception?

As I’ve said over and over again (and to which no one has responded), you cannot reject the Church’s teachings on contraception without calling into question their teachings on everything else about sexual morality. They all derive from the same philosophical tradition and therefore they all stand or fall together.

I can only respond by agreeing with you. This is why the teaching of the Church on contraception is always given in terms of marriage. The fundamental reality of the Sacrament of marriage is not compatible with acts that close off one of the purposes of marriage. That’s why the CCC calls it an offense against the dignity of marriage. All of the teachings of the Church on marriage including its permanence, one man- one woman, against adultery and fornication, against pornography and rape, the essential character of freedom within marriage and the complementary role of spouses – they are all tied together.

If you reject one (ie contraception), you reject the foundation on which it is taught. If you reject that foundation, how do you defend any of the teachings on marriage.

 

[Corki]

Pope Benedict XVI speaks of “intellectual charity”

That’s a great phrase. Do you have a cite?

 

[Bookcat]

That’s a great phrase. Do you have a cite?

He used it a number of places. Let me see if I can track down one.

 

[Debora123]

They will tell you that they have a healthy sex life.

Sound familiar?

Comparing homosexual “sex” (even though they physically CANT have sex) to married sex with my husband. Nope, does not sound familiar.

 

[SwizzleStick]

Pope Benedict XVI speaks of “intellectual charity”

This excerpt from commentary goes along with that idea.

"…This new “compassion” is a cunning trick that says each of us can decide for ourselves what is right and wrong, but don’t be fooled. It is a lie from the pit of hell because it deceives us into tolerating sin and calling evil good. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.” Isaiah 5:20

We’re not doing anyone any favors by denying or “fudging” the reality of sin. God tells us quite specifically that certain things are sinful, whether we like it or not. And that’s precisely the problem – a lot of people don’t like it.

The modern motto is that people should be able to live as they please without moral “imposition” from anyone else. I even hear Catholics saying the Church has no right to impose its beliefs or morality on anyone else. I strongly disagree – with the premise and the wording. The Church has every right, and more importantly, every obligation, to tell mankind of the danger of sin and the deadly consequences of indulging in it. That’s not “imposing morality.” It is the greatest demonstration of compassion.

God desires that not one of His children be lost for eternity, and His people are charged with the mission of telling the world that each of us has a choice to make. “I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live…” Deut 30: 19

We must be motivated by the same love and compassion that compelled Christ to die for us. We cannot be afraid to call sin what it is. We will be scorned and called every name in the book for insisting that some things are wrong and sinful. We’ll be labeled judgmental, self-righteous and hateful. But consider this: do you leave your door unlocked and welcome the criminal who would rob your house and maybe even kill you? Satan is just such a thief. He comes to kill and destroy our souls and sin is his weapon. How, then, is it compassionate to welcome and tolerate the sin that threatens to kill?"…

Entire commentary at link below:

Beware the New Compassion
catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=33803

 

[Debora123]

Why? Because the Church says they can’t? Because it’s contrary to natural law? Why are those facts valid with respect to homosexuality but not contraception?

Do you want be to get graphic? Intercourse = penis in vagina. This does not happen in homosexual sex.

 

[Bookcat]

That’s a great phrase. Do you have a cite?

here is one vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/april/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080417_cath-univ-washington_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

Comparing homosexual “sex” (even though they physically CANT have sex) to married sex with my husband.

I am glad you decided to get rid of the contraceptives…That is great!

Married sex or rather martial relations is wonderful. It is open to life…an exercise in total self gift (including ones fertility)…

Great!