From your experence why does NFP feel better than contraception?

[Bookcat]

Hot off the press…

from a day or so ago… I know…but I just saw it

From ArchBishop Timothy Dolan (who is also Pres. of the US Confer. of Bishops)

blog.archny.org/?p=1473

bump

 

[Warrior1979]

That’s not what he said. You can have all kinds of expressions of love that don’t involve sex. But for marital sex to be a true expression of love it must be both ordered toward procreation and unitive. You can’t have one without the other - in the marital act. That doesn’t mean that the love between the spouses ceases.

My interpretation is that the love doesn’t cease. What I don’t get is that both spouses consider it an act of love, yet the Church disagrees. I could understand the reasoning going as far as, say, calling it “disordered,” but I have trouble accepting anything beyond that.

 

[Calliso]

I had to stop reading the posts at page 15 because there was just too much in the way of ridiculous for me to continue without commenting.

Someone said they use condoms when the wife is ovulating to avoid pregnancy. I had to laugh, but really probably should have cried. When practiced correctly, NFP has a VIRTUAL ZERO accidental pregnancy rate, and that’s better than any form of artificial birth control. Indeed, most abortions that occur today are a result of failed artificial contraception!!! Whomever said they are using condoms to avoid pregnancy during ovulation is fooling themselves by putting their trust in a method that will result in A LOT more unplanned pregnancies than NFP! I personally know of two babies that were created while the man was using a condom.

Secondly, someone on the board keeps insisting that when pregnancy is trying to be avoided, NFP and ABC are the same thing because they both have the same end result. Wrong. The results do NOT justify the means. There is a HUGE moral difference between NFP and ABC. Dr. Janet Smith puts it this way: two husbands have lost their jobs and have a family to support. One husband steals the money to support his family with. The other husband takes odd jobs wherever he can find them to get money. Both end up supporting their families, but the end does not justify the means. ABC would be the thief in this analogy.

Thirdly, I feel sorry for those who have found their sex life stilted from NFP. Mine personally has become a lot more expressive, fun and even surprising since usng NFP. I will admit, however, that both me and my husband are pretty laid back kind of people and would never place undo pressure on ourselves or one another.

Thats great and all if you can actually use NFP perfectly. But when even the experts can;t help and your signs are forever uncertain well its kinda impossible to use NFP perfectly! And even if you can use NFP perfectly this often means using the most conversative forms which donlt leave a ton of safe days add that to lives obligations people have like job kids and so on and well next thing you know you find yourself having almost no time at all for sex. So on the occasions that you have the oppurtunity I can see how some posters here have felt pressured to do their best despite not truly being in the mood.

 

[Bookcat]

My interpretation is that the love doesn’t cease. What I don’t get is that both spouses consider it an act of love, yet the Church disagrees. I could understand the reasoning going as far as, say, calling it “disordered,” but I have trouble accepting anything beyond that.

Lots of people think lots of things are acts of love…which are not.

 

[Corki]

My interpretation is that the love doesn’t cease. What I don’t get is that both spouses consider it an act of love, yet the Church disagrees. I could understand the reasoning going as far as, say, calling it “disordered,” but I have trouble accepting anything beyond that.

This is along the same lines as the parallel discussion of morality based on feeling.

Love, as in married love, is more than a feeling. The two spouses engaging in contracepted sex consider it an act of love but only because they haven’t embraced the essense of the act as being both unitive and procreative. You can say the same thing about most of the offenses against marriage. For example, a person may divorce his wife and remarry - feeling that the second marriage is an act of love. But it isn’t. It’s simply missing what is needed to actually be an act of love just like contracepted sex is missing what is needed to actually be an act of love.

 

[Bookcat]

blog.archny.org/?p=1473

 

[Nate13]

I think what they are getting at Warrior is that your basically saying that if two people consent and agree something is loving it is loving. If its loving in their minds then it is a loving act. This idea reduces the idea of love to merely a feeling, when it is so much more. Its degrading to the true meaning of love in the least.

 

[TasteAndSee]

Thats great and all if you can actually use NFP perfectly. But when even the experts can;t help and your signs are forever uncertain well its kinda impossible to use NFP perfectly! And even if you can use NFP perfectly this often means using the most conversative forms which donlt leave a ton of safe days add that to lives obligations people have like job kids and so on and well next thing you know you find yourself having almost no time at all for sex. So on the occasions that you have the oppurtunity I can see how some posters here have felt pressured to do their best despite not truly being in the mood.

OF course the experts can use NFP correctly. It’s not that difficult actually if you know what signs to look for. Mother Teresa taught NFP to women in India as a means of avoiding pregnancy, and even among that group of women there was a virtual zero pregnancy rate.
However, I can certainly relate to those who have irregular cycles and trouble using NFP. When I first started NFP after I got off the pill, my cycles were all over the place. However, those irregular cycles pointed to a deeper health problem that I have since resolved. Had I not given up the pill, I would have had no idea that I had a nodule growing in my thyroid and that my thyroid was underactive. My case is the exception, not the rule, and most women will finds that their cycles are easy to track.
During the time I was trying to get to the bottom of my thyroid issues, my husband and I refrained from sex completely for about three months as I prepared for a radioactive iodine uptake scan. My doctor told us not to get pregnant since I needed the scan, and we knew that with my cycles being irregular, the only sure-fire way to avoid pregnancy was to not have sex. My hubby was AWESOME during that period, and so patient. It was a tough time in our marriage for sure, but worth it. We accepted the challenge in an effort to remain faithful to the church. But we love the church and ALL of her teachings.

 

[ahs]

However, I can certainly relate to those who have irregular cycles and trouble using NFP. When I first started NFP after I got off the pill, my cycles were all over the place. However, those irregular cycles pointed to a deeper health problem that I have since resolved.

My wife’s cycles were all over the chart as well at first. Nothing was ever diagnosed physically as being a cause, but after about a year they started looking “normal”. Then, at another point, they went all crazy again…and after a another year they went back to normal and have stayed that way for the last couple years.

Here is what is similar to the time periods when her cycles were all whacky: 1st time was early into our 1st year of marriage, which most married people I’ve talked to would agree is a rough spot of growing pains in getting used to marriage (it certainly was for us). 2nd time was during a HUGE family fued on my side of the family…very stressful in general and stressful on our marriage (I wouldn’t want to go through that again, but it sure brought us closer in the long run!)

Anyway, since we never found a physical cause for it, I’m convinced that is was psychological/emotional stressors that were making her temps all whacked out. The body and mind work together, and can suffer together as well.
(Yeah, some of you probably think I’m whacky myself, now. )

ahs

 

[Good_Daughter]

Odell, I knew we were going to get your story eventually. Thank you, I really identify with your contraception struggle. You had me close to tears.

I’ve done some reflecting on the questions in your OP. Spiritually, I think that couples who use NFP tend to do so because they desire total submission to God. Humble obedience to His will must be an indescribable experience. To share this with your beloved in the marriage covenant seems like heaven on earth. It reminds me of the St. Ignatius prayer:

Take, Lord, and receive all my liberty,
my memory, my understanding,
and my entire will,
All I have and call my own.

You have given it to me.
To you, Lord, I return it.

Everything is yours;do with it what you will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
That is enough for me.

Imagine being able to surrender your marriage and marital embrace to God in this way. I’m trying so hard to do this. Imperfectly, but I’m still trying.

 

[Blacksword]

I had to stop reading the posts at page 15 because there was just too much in the way of ridiculous for me to continue without commenting.

Someone said they use condoms when the wife is ovulating to avoid pregnancy. I had to laugh, but really probably should have cried. When practiced correctly, NFP has a VIRTUAL ZERO accidental pregnancy rate, and that’s better than any form of artificial birth control. Indeed, most abortions that occur today are a result of failed artificial contraception!!! Whomever said they are using condoms to avoid pregnancy during ovulation is fooling themselves by putting their trust in a method that will result in A LOT more unplanned pregnancies than NFP! I personally know of two babies that were created while the man was using a condom.

Secondly, someone on the board keeps insisting that when pregnancy is trying to be avoided, NFP and ABC are the same thing because they both have the same end result. Wrong. The results do NOT justify the means. There is a HUGE moral difference between NFP and ABC. Dr. Janet Smith puts it this way: two husbands have lost their jobs and have a family to support. One husband steals the money to support his family with. The other husband takes odd jobs wherever he can find them to get money. Both end up supporting their families, but the end does not justify the means. ABC would be the thief in this analogy.

Thirdly, I feel sorry for those who have found their sex life stilted from NFP. Mine personally has become a lot more expressive, fun and even surprising since usng NFP. I will admit, however, that both me and my husband are pretty laid back kind of people and would never place undo pressure on ourselves or one another.

Ok, here goes. First, the efficacy of NFP is touted greatly by its proponents, but the real-life experience of thousands of couples, as shown even on CAF threads, says otherwise.

Secondly, I’m not arguing about “results” of NFP or BC, I’m talking about intent of the couple using each method. I’m saying the intent of the couple using NFP is pretty much always contraceptive in nature, therefore if any other form of BC is wrong, then so is NFP. Their intent is equally sinful according to the teaching.

Lastly, your analogy about stealing exemplifies the invalid argumentation and logical fallacies proponents of NFP only make: you’re assuming the consequent. Your analogy assumes the very thing it’s trying to prove, i.e. the wrongness of BC. You compare it to stealing, but if you haven’t shown how it’s similarly wrong, you’re going in circles.

 

[Debora123]

I had to stop reading the posts at page 15 because there was just too much in the way of ridiculous for me to continue without commenting.

Someone said they use condoms when the wife is ovulating to avoid pregnancy. I had to laugh, but really probably should have cried. When practiced correctly, NFP has a VIRTUAL ZERO accidental pregnancy rate, and that’s better than any form of artificial birth control. Indeed, most abortions that occur today are a result of failed artificial contraception!!! Whomever said they are using condoms to avoid pregnancy during ovulation is fooling themselves by putting their trust in a method that will result in A LOT more unplanned pregnancies than NFP! I personally know of two babies that were created while the man was using a condom.

Secondly, someone on the board keeps insisting that when pregnancy is trying to be avoided, NFP and ABC are the same thing because they both have the same end result. Wrong. The results do NOT justify the means. There is a HUGE moral difference between NFP and ABC. Dr. Janet Smith puts it this way: two husbands have lost their jobs and have a family to support. One husband steals the money to support his family with. The other husband takes odd jobs wherever he can find them to get money. Both end up supporting their families, but the end does not justify the means. ABC would be the thief in this analogy.

Thirdly, I feel sorry for those who have found their sex life stilted from NFP. Mine personally has become a lot more expressive, fun and even surprising since usng NFP. I will admit, however, that both me and my husband are pretty laid back kind of people and would never place undo pressure on ourselves or one another.

I guess you just happen to be better than me.

 

[ahs]

Odell, I knew we were going to get your story eventually. Thank you, I really identify with your contraception struggle. You had me close to tears.

I’ve done some reflecting on the questions in your OP. Spiritually, I think that couples who use NFP tend to do so because they desire total submission to God. Humble obedience to His will must be an indescribable experience. To share this with your beloved in the marriage covenant seems like heaven on earth. It reminds me of the St. Ignatius prayer:

Take, Lord, and receive all my liberty,
my memory, my understanding,
and my entire will,
All I have and call my own.

You have given it to me.
To you, Lord, I return it.

Everything is yours;do with it what you will.
Give me only your love and your grace,
That is enough for me.

Imagine being able to surrender your marriage and marital embrace to God in this way. I’m trying so hard to do this. Imperfectly, but I’m still trying.

Wow…now YOU’VE got ME nearly in tears!!! That is a beautiful explanation!

 

[Warrior1979]

For example, a person may divorce his wife and remarry - feeling that the second marriage is an act of love. But it isn’t.

But if the wife divorces the husband first, it is.

You know how to pick 'em.

Being that this is essentially my situation, I have experience with it. I utterly reject this notion that this act, resulting in abandoned children being provided a loving home and being raised RC (despite my feelings), by the most magnificent mother one could imagine, is anything other than an act of love. I’ll let God be the judge on this one.

It’s simply missing what is needed to actually be an act of love just like contracepted sex is missing what is needed to actually be an act of love.

IMHO, it’s “not an act of love” simply because the act of love is redefined to mean something else.

 

[TasteAndSee]

Ok, here goes. First, the efficacy of NFP is touted greatly by its proponents, but the real-life experience of thousands of couples, as shown even on CAF threads, says otherwise.

Secondly, I’m not arguing about “results” of NFP or BC, I’m talking about intent of the couple using each method. I’m saying the intent of the couple using NFP is pretty much always contraceptive in nature, therefore if any other form of BC is wrong, then so is NFP. Their intent is equally sinful according to the teaching.

Lastly, your analogy about stealing exemplifies the invalid argumentation and logical fallacies proponents of NFP only make: you’re assuming the consequent. Your analogy assumes the very thing it’s trying to prove, i.e. the wrongness of BC. You compare it to stealing, but if you haven’t shown how it’s similarly wrong, you’re going in circles.

So my virtual zero statistic is incorrect, even though it has been documented by numorous people from physicians to Mother Teresa herself, but your generalized statement that the “real life experience of thousands of couples” including many on this board is something I should take as fact? I don’t buy it.

Saying that the intent of an NFP couple is pretty much always contraceptive in nature is another gross generalization that is in no way based on fact. A true NFP couple who is avoiding pregnancy is doing so for grave reason and yet still opens themselves up to the possibility of a child (virtual zero does not mean zero). Additionally, there is no blocking during sex as there is in barrier methods. There is no abortifacient risk as there is with hormonal methods. And there is a willigness to say YES to God, unlike sterilization methods. In other words, even though the means are the same in NFP and ABC (no pregnancy) one is immoral in that it destroys the unitive aspect of marriage, can result in the actual death of a child, and says NO to God. NFP is always life-giving, a YES to God, and a total self-giving between spouses. NFP = moral, like the man who works for his money. ABC = immoral = like the man who steals for his money.

 

[Blacksword]

So my virtual zero statistic is incorrect, even though it has been documented by numorous people from physicians to Mother Teresa herself, but your generalized statement that the “real life experience of thousands of couples” including many on this board is something I should take as fact? I don’t buy it.

Saying that the intent of an NFP couple is pretty much always contraceptive in nature is another gross generalization that is in no way based on fact. A true NFP couple who is avoiding pregnancy is doing so for grave reason and yet still opens themselves up to the possibility of a child (virtual zero does not mean zero). Additionally, there is no blocking during sex as there is in barrier methods. There is no abortifacient risk as there is with hormonal methods. And there is a willigness to say YES to God, unlike sterilization methods. In other words, even though the means are the same in NFP and ABC (no pregnancy) one is immoral in that it destroys the unitive aspect of marriage, can result in the actual death of a child, and says NO to God. NFP is always life-giving, a YES to God, and a total self-giving between spouses. NFP = moral, like the man who works for his money. ABC = immoral = like the man who steals for his money.

Sorry, maybe it’s just me, but I’m not seeing how meticulously checking temperatures, mucous levels, and all other manner of biological minutae in attempt to figure out when it’s “safe” is in any way saying “yes” to God. I mean really? In fact it strikes me as the most involved and unnatural, extreme way possible, excepting surgery, to avoid conception:shrug:

 

[Nate13]

Sorry, maybe it’s just me, but I’m not seeing how meticulously checking temperatures, mucous levels, and all other manner of biological minutae in attempt to figure out when it’s “safe” is in any way saying “yes” to God. I mean really? In fact it strikes me as the most involved and unnatural, extreme way possible, excepting surgery, to avoid conception:shrug:

haha you pray and and put a lot of thought into whether you are abstaining for the right reasons. Also how is it unnatural to monitor you bodily functions? I guess I shouldn’t bother to worry if I start peeing blood since it would be unnatural for me to monitor that

It is saying “yes” to God because we are accepting the way God has made us. He made women to have 2 days where they are fertile and the ability to keep semen alive for up to 7 days I believe. The rest of the time we are infertile and you can’t deny that God made us this way. If a couple chooses to have sex during the time where they are fertile but use contraception they are denying who they are. NFP on the other hand respects the way GOD has made us and the couple chooses to abstain at the time when they are fertile rather then disrespecting God and our bodies. If you truly had a good reason to not have another child, you would respect the way God has made us period.

How can you see contraception as something other than a way to “correct” the way we were made since obviously God didn’t do a very good job…

 

[Corki]

Sorry, maybe it’s just me, but I’m not seeing how meticulously checking temperatures, mucous levels, and all other manner of biological minutae in attempt to figure out when it’s “safe” is in any way saying “yes” to God. I mean really? In fact it strikes me as the most involved and unnatural, extreme way possible, excepting surgery, to avoid conception:shrug:

Maybe it is you. I didn’t practice NFP by being that obsessed about any of those things. But then, I didn’t have a **very serious **reason to postpone another child. If I had a life threatening medical condition, I probably would have taken that route. But then, I would have been grateful for every day then too.

How complicated a couple lets NFP get is directly related to how seriously they need to avoid another pregnancy (or how desperately they want to conceive).

 

[sw85]

Sorry, maybe it’s just me, but I’m not seeing how meticulously checking temperatures, mucous levels, and all other manner of biological minutae in attempt to figure out when it’s “safe” is in any way saying “yes” to God. I mean really? In fact it strikes me as the most involved and unnatural, extreme way possible, excepting surgery, to avoid conception:shrug:

The act itself is licit because it conforms to the procreative *telos *of the sexual faculty.

Using NFP is illicit only when the will itself is disordered – when a person uses NFP for selfish, rather than serious, reasons.

 

[Blacksword]

haha you pray and and put a lot of thought into whether you are abstaining for the right reasons. Also how is it unnatural to monitor you bodily functions? I guess I shouldn’t bother to worry if I start peeing blood since it would be unnatural for me to monitor that

It is saying “yes” to God because we are accepting the way God has made us. He made women to have 2 days where they are fertile and the ability to keep semen alive for up to 7 days I believe. The rest of the time we are infertile and you can’t deny that God made us this way. If a couple chooses to have sex during the time where they are fertile but use contraception they are denying who they are. NFP on the other hand respects the way GOD has made us and the couple chooses to abstain at the time when they are fertile rather then disrespecting God and our bodies. If you truly had a good reason to not have another child, you would respect the way God has made us period.

How can you see contraception as something other than a way to “correct” the way we were made since obviously God didn’t do a very good job…

Because it isn’t. It’s a way of trying to prevent conception of a child while still engaging in sex, just like NFP.