Frustrating confession. Validity?

[DoNotWorry]

If an otherwise good and charitable person burns in hell for [insert sympathetic mortal sin here], then what chance does anyone really have?

That wasn’t a joke, and if you think it was, that’s a serious problem. Those who die in a state of mortal sin go directly to Hell. That’s what the Church teaches. Our Lady warned that people were falling into hell like snowflakes because they have no one to pray for them, but that was a century ago; today, they are falling into hell like snowflakes in a blizzard because no one is willing to man up and tell them that what they are doing is a mortal sin for fear of “offending” them. No one wants to say that homosexuality is a mortal sin. No one wants to say that divorce is a mortal sin. No one wants to say that imbibing drugs is a sin. That isn’t love, it’s cowardice. It’s fear. We must do better, because we are dealing with eternal consequences.

Divorce is NOT a sin. In fact, you MUST be divorced to obtain an annulment. Look it up. And glibly telling someone “at least you can spark one up in the lake of fire” is NOT loving correction. It is pompous derision and mocking a person. What is YOUR main weakness? Can we all sit around and make sarcastic comments about you burning in hell while you masturbate/look at porn/yell at your wife?

 

[maryjk]

I’m sorry, I knew it was foolish of me to come to this site. Every time I do I am reminded of the ugliness that comes out in people. So far in this thread, I have personally been basically called a drug addict, a bad mother, a bad Catholic who should just leave the Church and join some other faith, etc. etc. there is a reason I left long ago and my faith blossomed in the interim. This site has some very toxic people and it is easy to forget and lose sight of the MERCY of Jesus here.

Sorry, it’s not just you. I know you were just being glib, but this site is rife with flip pomposity. I’m sick of it.

You came to this site with an agenda. You were called out for it.

So what exactly are you sick of?

 

[fre803]

What is YOUR main weakness?

I acknowledge that the sinful conduct into which I occasionally relapse is actually sinful, rather than trying to defend that conduct and making implausible arguments about why the Church doesn’t actually condemn it as sinful, as you and Robert are attempting to do. The Church’s teaching is clear. The issue is not whether you or I sometimes fail to live up to that teaching, it is whether one accepts that teaching or attempts to evade it.

 

[HelenRose]

I acknowledge that the sinful conduct into which I occasionally relapse is actually sinful, rather than trying to defend that conduct and making implausible arguments about why the Church doesn’t actually condemn it as sinful, as you and Robert are attempting to do. The Church’s teaching is clear. The issue is not whether you or I sometimes fail to live up to that teaching, it is whether one accepts that teaching or attempts to evade it.

 

[Chayla]

I’m sorry if I missed something, but are you saying that you’re self-medicating for anxiety?

If there are times that feel that you “need” a drug to relax, I would talk to your physician. There may be more to the problem that you have not considered, and there also may be solutions that do not involve drugs.

My experience (as someone who has anxiety disorders) that if you go to a Dr. to be seen for anxiety, you will by prescribed a drug which is dangerous, addictive, and potentially deadly. Certainly, much more dangerous than cannabis.

And, I have seen many doctors for anxiety over the years…

And yet, using dangerous pharmaceutical prescribed by the Dr. would NOT be a sin, and yet legal cannabis is??? I just have a hard time understanding that concept.

I just don’t get it…

 

[HelenRose]

My experience (as someone who has anxiety disorders) that if you go to a Dr. to be seen for anxiety, you will by prescribed a drug which is dangerous, addictive, and potentially deadly. Certainly, much more dangerous than cannabis.

And, I have seen many doctors for anxiety over the years…

And yet, using dangerous pharmaceutical prescribed by the Dr. would NOT be a sin, and yet legal cannabis is??? I just have a hard time understanding that concept.

I just don’t get it…

Using a dangerous pharmaceutical drug prescribed by a Doctor can be a sin too, if it is abused. In fact, a dear and precious niece of mine died because of abusing a prescribed drug.

My mother who was a girl in the 1920’s had very strong opinions about smoking tobacco. It was considered “unladylike” She thought that the taboo against smoking was stupid. She thought that is was a puritan dictate. My fondest memories as I child was sitting around a table with my older sister, my mother, my aunt and my older cousin while they smoked tobacco. I loved, and still do, the smell of tobacco.

My sister, my brother, my aunt and my cousin all died because of tobacco. Cancer and emphysema were the causes. They did not know at the time of the harm caused by smoking tobacco. We do not know the long term effects of smoking marijuana. There is also the effect of the smoke and its harm to babies and children to consider.

The people I know, my nieces and nephews and other young people I love who smoke pot also smoke tobacco and drink alcohol. What the state of their souls is completely unknown to me. That is between themselves and God. But what they are doing to their bodies is another matter. And to be honest, I am tired of watching people I love dying of drug use.

What I don’t understand is why people are pushing so hard to give the world another drug. I just don’t get it.

 

[DoNotWorry]

My experience (as someone who has anxiety disorders) that if you go to a Dr. to be seen for anxiety, you will by prescribed a drug which is dangerous, addictive, and potentially deadly. Certainly, much more dangerous than cannabis.

And, I have seen many doctors for anxiety over the years…

And yet, using dangerous pharmaceutical prescribed by the Dr. would NOT be a sin, and yet legal cannabis is??? I just have a hard time understanding that concept.

I just don’t get it…

Thank you. Go to a doc for anxiety and you will probably be prescribed Xanax or Valium. I have seen what “prescribed” use of this does to people. I am not talking about abuse here, I am talking about doctor’s orders. Xanax makes a person listless and practically unwilling to even leave the house. Prolonged use for anxiety causes severe depression and can lead to practically changing a person’s entire personality. But hey, it’s prescribed, so why not?

This hysteria over marijuana comes from people who know nothing about it. There are so many different strains, some which make a person energetic and happy and which don’t cause a person to be stoned out of their minds. It is great for ADHD in some people who cannot relax and focus, but hey, let’s just put everyone on adderall instead (which directly caused my brother to have a psychotic break and gave my friend’s sister a heart attack). You people think you are doing a good thing by hysterically decrying the use of marijuana, but you have NO IDEA what you are talking about or how it can really help people with their problems. You blindly trust doctors who have a financial interest in making drug addicts out of you without batting an eye. You trust clergy who, while well-intentioned, know practically nothing about the real science behind cannabis, and you wonder why people are poisoning themselves to death with alcohol and tobacco and killing themselves with “safe” prescription drugs. Keep your heads in the sand all you want. The drug and alcohol industries are murdering people and all you can do is bleat about a little plant.

 

[HelenRose]

Interesting. When I was a very heavy user, I was intensely motivated, earned awards at college, obtained my Master’s in a foreign language with nearly a 4.0, was extremely creative and much more focused and spiritual than I am now. I was extremely content to sit and study for hours. Look at the number of college professors who use it. Extremely high. And what about this study?

healthland.time.com/2012/10/29/how-cannabinoids-may-slow-brain-aging/

One can only wonder what gifts they have thrown away. What good they could have accomplished? Yet, here they are, encouraging and enabling lesser minds to engage in drugs to imitate their genius.

That may be one of the reasons I have avoided drugs. I am well aware that I am not a genius so I figure I need to hold on to what brain cells I do have.

 

[maryjk]

Thank you. Go to a doc for anxiety and you will probably be prescribed Xanax or Valium. I have seen what “prescribed” use of this does to people. I am not talking about abuse here, I am talking about doctor’s orders. Xanax makes a person listless and practically unwilling to even leave the house. Prolonged use for anxiety causes severe depression and can lead to practically changing a person’s entire personality. But hey, it’s prescribed, so why not?

This hysteria over marijuana comes from people who know nothing about it. There are so many different strains, some which make a person energetic and happy and which don’t cause a person to be stoned out of their minds. It is great for ADHD in some people who cannot relax and focus, but hey, let’s just put everyone on adderall instead (which directly caused my brother to have a psychotic break and gave my friend’s sister a heart attack). You people think you are doing a good thing by hysterically decrying the use of marijuana, but you have NO IDEA what you are talking about or how it can really help people with their problems. You blindly trust doctors who have a financial interest in making drug addicts out of you without batting an eye. You trust clergy who, while well-intentioned, know practically nothing about the real science behind cannabis, and you wonder why people are poisoning themselves to death with alcohol and tobacco and killing themselves with “safe” prescription drugs. Keep your heads in the sand all you want. The drug and alcohol industries are murdering people and all you can do is bleat about a little plant.

But you have repeatedly said you are not using pot for medical reasons.

You are using it, along with a couple of drinks, to “relax.”

In other words, for you, it is recreational use.

 

[HelenRose]

Thank you. Go to a doc for anxiety and you will probably be prescribed Xanax or Valium. I have seen what “prescribed” use of this does to people. I am not talking about abuse here, I am talking about doctor’s orders. Xanax makes a person listless and practically unwilling to even leave the house. Prolonged use for anxiety causes severe depression and can lead to practically changing a person’s entire personality. But hey, it’s prescribed, so why not?

This hysteria over marijuana comes from people who know nothing about it. There are so many different strains, some which make a person energetic and happy and which don’t cause a person to be stoned out of their minds. It is great for ADHD in some people who cannot relax and focus, but hey, let’s just put everyone on adderall instead (which directly caused my brother to have a psychotic break and gave my friend’s sister a heart attack). You people think you are doing a good thing by hysterically decrying the use of marijuana, but you have NO IDEA what you are talking about or how it can really help people with their problems. You blindly trust doctors who have a financial interest in making drug addicts out of you without batting an eye. You trust clergy who, while well-intentioned, know practically nothing about the real science behind cannabis, and you wonder why people are poisoning themselves to death with alcohol and tobacco and killing themselves with “safe” prescription drugs. Keep your heads in the sand all you want. The drug and alcohol industries are murdering people and all you can do is bleat about a little plant.

The only hysterical people I am aware of in this conversation are those who are trying their best to sanctify pot. Drugs kill, drugs are dangerous, alcohol kills, alcohol is dangerous, tobacco kills, tobacco is dangerous, pot is a drug, pot is dangerous. Why are people trying to sanctify pot?

It is bad enough that we already have an alcohol problem and a tobacco problem. Do you really believe adding pot to mix is a good idea?

It is like a two year saying to another two year old. “You get to be naughty. Why can’t I?”

 

[Havard]

My experience (as someone who has anxiety disorders) that if you go to a Dr. to be seen for anxiety, you will by prescribed a drug which is dangerous, addictive, and potentially deadly. Certainly, much more dangerous than cannabis.

And, I have seen many doctors for anxiety over the years…

And yet, using dangerous pharmaceutical prescribed by the Dr. would NOT be a sin, and yet legal cannabis is??? I just have a hard time understanding that concept.

I just don’t get it…

Prescription of medication can be abused, but it does involve at least a neutral party with professional medical experience who can assess potential side effects and dosage concerns. Routinely following up with your doctor adds to this.

Self-medication is clearly different. All of us are biased when it comes to our needs. In fact, no offense to the original poster, but it seems to me that she’s demonstrated a great example of confirmation bias. When I listen to pro-pot Catholics, I do sense a lot of bias, mainly due to:

-Their level of emotion and defensiveness in discussing the issue
-Willingness to accept disputed or ambiguous studies or literature that is pro-pot
-Resistance (or even hostility toward) disputed or ambiguous studies or literature that is anti-pot

I’m not saying I am 100.0000000% neutral, but I used to smoke pot, and I did enjoy it, so it’s not like I’m some Reefer Madness pot-o-phobe. I got to the point where, based upon my understanding of Scripture and theology, I just couldn’t morally justify using it anymore. I have accepted and do accept some studies regarding its benefits, but I look at it in the totality, and the only instances I can see it being justified are 1) for conditions where there is strong evidence it is beneficial, and 2) used through a neutral doctor’s prescription.

 

[DoNotWorry]

But you have repeatedly said you are not using pot for medical reasons.

You are using it, along with a couple of drinks, to “relax.”

In other words, for you, it is recreational use.

Yes I did. Recreational use for me is a way to disconnect from with the anxiety of the week, to connect with my husband by putting aside all of the “musts”, to relax and read (sometimes scripture), contemplate my life and my faith and write my books. This is my “recreational” use. No doctor would give me a prescription to do this, but for me, it can be extremely productive and calming, if only I didn’t have people who assume I am some kind of crackhead trying to babysit me by telling me these reasons are illegitimate and telling me I’m going to hell for it. Funny, I could get a Xanax prescription for this in a heartbeat and basically be a zombie, but that would be ok, because DOCTORS.

Incidentally, these doctors are PAID massive amounts of money and given trips around the world to prescribe these drugs. So let’s all raise our glasses to the rumors and cleft palates and heart murmurs that are caused every year by these highly-processed chemicals that we blindly swallow because the FDA and doctors tell us it’s safe while they receive massive kickbacks and incentives to throw as many pills at us as possible while we demonize a non-toxic plant.

 

[DoNotWorry]

The only hysterical people I am aware of in this conversation are those who are trying their best to sanctify pot. Drugs kill, drugs are dangerous, alcohol kills, alcohol is dangerous, tobacco kills, tobacco is dangerous, pot is a drug, pot is dangerous. Why are people trying to sanctify pot?

It is bad enough that we already have an alcohol problem and a tobacco problem. Do you really believe adding pot to mix is a good idea?

It is like a two year saying to another two year old. “You get to be naughty. Why can’t I?”

Nobody is trying to sanctify pot. What we are wondering is WHY alcohol is licit, tobacco is licit, and marijuana is not. Why can I sinlessly give myself cancer, leave my family to fend for themselves because I knowingly choose to inhale 3000 different chemical poisons by smoking cigarettes that are more addictive than HEROIN? Why am I allowed to sinlessly imbibe alcohol which is responsible for THOUSANDS of deaths per year, through violence, poisonings, disease and plain reckless behavior associated with this drug? And an manis, very arguably the most harmless of the three, is off-limits entirely because I am not trusted to be responsible with my use as I am with the other two DEADLY substances? It is hypocritical. If the Church wants to make alcohol and tobacco illicit, at LEAST it would be consistent.

 

[HelenRose]

Prescription of medication can be abused, but it does involve at least a neutral party with professional medical experience who can assess potential side effects and dosage concerns. Routinely following up with your doctor adds to this.

Self-medication is clearly different. All of us are biased when it comes to our needs. In fact, no offense to the original poster, but it seems to me that she’s demonstrated a great example of confirmation bias. When I listen to pro-pot Catholics, I do sense a lot of bias, mainly due to:

-Their level of emotion and defensiveness in discussing the issue
-Willingness to accept disputed or ambiguous studies or literature that is pro-pot
-Resistance (or even hostility toward) disputed or ambiguous studies or literature that is anti-pot

I’m not saying I am 100.0000000% neutral, but I used to smoke pot, and I did enjoy it, so it’s not like I’m some Reefer Madness pot-o-phobe. I got to the point where, based upon my understanding of Scripture and theology, I just couldn’t morally justify using it anymore. I have accepted and do accept some studies regarding its benefits, but I look at it in the totality, and the only instances I can see it being justified are 1) for conditions where there is strong evidence it is beneficial, and 2) used through a neutral doctor’s prescription.

You do sound like a sensible person. No one else is interested in answering my question so maybe you will.

Do you understand the motivation behind the desire to sanctify pot?
I simply can not understand why, given the dangers of tobacco and alcohol, anyone would want to add another layer of chemicals.

I have seen so much destruction in my own family, some my own nieces and nephews, the children of my friends, and now my grandchildren due to the use of various types of chemicals. I would like to have an honest answer as to why it has been a goal of many people to make pot acceptable.

I can understand the history of alcohol. Before the knowledge of pathogens and chlorine, alcohol in liquid had the ability to kill water bourn diseases.

It isn’t a matter of puritanical beliefs on my part. It is a matter of sorrow having seen my loved ones die.

 

[HelenRose]

Nobody is trying to sanctify pot. What we are wondering is WHY alcohol is licit, tobacco is licit, and marijuana is not. Why can I sinlessly give myself cancer, leave my family to fend for themselves because I knowingly choose to inhale 3000 different chemical poisons by smoking cigarettes that are more addictive than HEROIN? Why am I allowed to sinlessly imbibe alcohol which is responsible for THOUSANDS of deaths per year, through violence, poisonings, disease and plain reckless behavior associated with this drug? And an manis, very arguably the most harmless of the three, is off-limits entirely because I am not trusted to be responsible with my use as I am with the other two DEADLY substances? It is hypocritical. If the Church wants to make alcohol and tobacco illicit, at LEAST it would be consistent.

Why should it be consistent? There is no real virtue in consistency.
Just tell me why you think that adding pot to the list of harmful chemicals is a worthwhile cause on your part.

 

[HelenRose]

Why should it be consistent? There is no real virtue in consistency.
Just tell me why you think that adding pot to the list of harmful chemicals is a worthwhile cause on your part.

Let me rephrase that.

Why should She be consistent. There is no real virtue in consistency besides the Church is feminine so She has every right in the world to be somewhat what inconsistent in Her desire to protect Her children.

 

[DoNotWorry]

Why should it be consistent? There is no real virtue in consistency.
Just tell me why you think that adding pot to the list of harmful chemicals is a worthwhile cause on your part.

There is virtue in consistency. That virtue is that when people look at the teachings of the Church, they should make sense. They should be logical and consistent and speak to a deeper truth. Arbitrary rules are a sure-fire way to her people to leave or to keep them away. There is no LOGICAL reason why other, DEADLIER substances are a-ok and another, non-toxic substance is not.

People who use marijuana are less likely to abuse other drugs, by the way. In places where it is legal, other illegal drug use goes down.

It is a GOOD thing (in my opinion), put here by God for people to enjoy and for medicinal uses as well.

Just because some people in your family or the world cannot use something (food, alcohol, tobacco, etc.) without abusing it does not mean the rest of us are immoral for using it wisely and in moderation.

 

[HelenRose]

There is virtue in consistency. That virtue is that when people look at the teachings of the Church, they should make sense. They should be logical and consistent and speak to a deeper truth. Arbitrary rules are a sure-fire way to her people to leave or to keep them away. There is no LOGICAL reason why other, DEADLIER substances are a-ok and another, non-toxic substance is not.

People who use marijuana are less likely to abuse other drugs, by the way. In places where it is legal, other illegal drug use goes down.

It is a GOOD thing (in my opinion), put here by God for people to enjoy and for medicinal uses as well.

Just because some people in your family or the world cannot use something (food, alcohol, tobacco, etc.) without abusing it does not mean the rest of us are immoral for using it wisely and in moderation.

Thank you for an honest answer. You believe that marijuana is a good and that the church is wrong in prohibiting it. Fair enough.

I disagree with you and believe that you are wrong.

 

[Havard]

You do sound like a sensible person. No one else is interested in answering my question so maybe you will.

Do you understand the motivation behind the desire to sanctify pot?
I simply can not understand why, given the dangers of tobacco and alcohol, anyone would want to add another layer of chemicals.

I have seen so much destruction in my own family, some my own nieces and nephews, the children of my friends, and now my grandchildren due to the use of various types of chemicals. I would like to have an honest answer as to why it has been a goal of many people to make pot acceptable.

I can understand the history of alcohol. Before the knowledge of pathogens and chlorine, alcohol in liquid had the ability to kill water bourn diseases.

It isn’t a matter of puritanical beliefs on my part. It is a matter of sorrow having seen my loved ones die.

I don’t know if there’s one primary reason why people want to sanctify pot, but I can offer a few possibilities.

Let me see, in no particular order:

1. They already enjoy using it and they don’t want to give it up. Once someone has rationalized that something is okay, it’s not easy to backtrack, especially when you can find a large community of people who agree with you.
2. It’s “natural”. People seem to think drugs are better simply for the reason that they aren’t made in a lab. To paraphrase, Harold Ramis’ character in Knocked Up “if it grows in the ground, it’s probably okay”. That seems extremely ridiculous considering the kinds of things I’ve seen people do on shrooms, but nevertheless, it is a belief that a lot of people seem to cling to.
3. Pot has cultural ties and entanglements. I don’t simply mean hippies or neo-hippies, to a lot of people the suppression of pot is analogous to the oppression of various groups or causes. Siding with pot means taking on “the man”, the establishment, tradition, Puritanical roots, etc. There is a strong sentiment in this country that our nation has been far too traditional and Puritanical, so it’s easy to straw man anti-pot folks as paranoid loons, à la Reefer Madness.

 

[HelenRose]

I will trust my Mother the Church.
If you disagree with me, it is a free country, you don’t have to be a Catholic.