Frustrating confession. Validity?

[Havard]

Proverbs 31:7
Let them drink to forget their poverty and remember their troubles no more.

I’m pretty sure the idea here is to catch a good buzz and literally drink their troubles away, if only for a brief time, not just to enjoy the delicious flavor of Snapple

And cigarettes are not smoked for flavor, I don’t care how USED to the taste a person may have become. The point of smoking is for the EFFECT.

So it is ok to drink alcohol for the effect (at least, in this scripture passage) and ok to smoke cigarettes for the effect (which kill 25% of all long-term users), but using cannabis for the effect in moderation is inherently immoral WHY?

I am seriously not trying to be difficult, but logic and consistency here are important, lest we become like the baptists who just randomly ban things like dancing and drinking for no logical reason.

Puritanical or knee-jerk banning is not a risk here. I’m just arguing one side, and you are free to disagree with me. It’s like the modesty in dress threads. No one is suggesting that the Swiss Guard come down and enforce modesty. People express what they think is modest, and maybe they leave thinking the same things, or maybe they change their minds.

As to Proverbs 31, the moral lessons of that proverb is Lemuel’s mother’s advice to him. She advised him not to drink, because it impairs his judgment. She’s basically saying, let these miserables drink, but not you. You’re a king, an important man with responsibilities towards others.

I think that standard here is applicable to all of us, not just Lemuel. Taking it the other, way, that it’s a green light for us hoi poilloi to drink away our woes, just doesn’t jive with the way we are addressed as God’s created children, as His beloved, in either the New Testament or the Old.

*Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. *

I know we can’t be perfect, not on our merits anyway, but… it’s pretty clear we’re supposed to try.

 

[DoNotWorry]

Puritanical or knee-jerk banning is not a risk here. I’m just arguing one side, and you are free to disagree with me. It’s like the modesty in dress threads. No one is suggesting that the Swiss Guard come down and enforce modesty. People express what they think is modest, and maybe they leave thinking the same things, or maybe they change their minds.

As to Proverbs 31, the moral lessons of that proverb is Lemuel’s mother’s advice to him. She advised him not to drink, because it impairs his judgment. She’s basically saying, let these miserables drink, but not you. You’re a king, an important man with responsibilities towards others.

I think that standard here is applicable to all of us, not just Lemuel. Taking it the other, way, that it’s a green light for us hoi poilloi to drink away our woes, just doesn’t jive with the way we are addressed as God’s created children, as His beloved, in either the New Testament or the Old.

*Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. *

I know we can’t be perfect, not on our merits anyway, but… it’s pretty clear we’re supposed to try.

Ok, but at the wedding of Cana, when they ran out of wine, are we to believe that they were all drinking 5-10 glasses apiece because they were thirsty? And Jesus made more didn’t He? I just feel that saying that drinking to relax is automatically bad or sinful is a bit over the top. That’s what people do. It’s DRUNKENNESS that is a sin, and according to Fr. John Hardon, that involves losing one’s ability to reason or losing one’s senses, not getting tipsy and singing too loudly. So why the hate for cannabis then? We are permitted to be in an altered state, yes? And to drink alcohol or smoke (tobacco) or imbibe caffeine to that effect?

 

[chefmomster2]

By the catechism’s definition, alcohol and cigarettes are clearly drugs, and yet those are not inherently sinful. Caffeine also falls under this category. Obviously the Church allows for drugs that are not among those prohibited. Cigarettes literally kill 25% of the people who smoke them throughout their lives, and I know that cigarettes are not strictly prohibited and that many priests smoke them themselves.

First, the basics:

CCC
2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others’ safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

2291** The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. **Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

These fall under the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill.”

Priests being human are as likely as we are to sin. The fact that they do commit a particular sin is very sad and can sometimes lead us to erroneously believe that what they are doing is acceptable. This is untrue.

I would be cautious about drawing too fine a line with “not strictly prohibited”. While this is often true, we are called to an understanding of the underlying Church teaching. We want not only to avoid those things that are specifically prohibited, but to preserve and protect our bodies as the temples of our holy souls and a gift from God.

I do understand your confusion and I am sorry that you received conflicting information. I have experienced that myself and I was deeply disturbed to discover at a later time that what I believed to be acceptable was in fact sinful. It was enormously frustrating. I hope that you will continue to learn about this topic and our Church’s true teaching on the subject.

 

[HelenRose]

Well this is a piece of cake for me. As I said, I’ve only used cannabis once since April 2013.

You know, giving up cigarettes was hard for me but not near as hard as giving up cheese will be.

I wasn’t particularly addicted to cigarettes but the smell of the smoke has always brought back wonderful memories. Reason does not enter into addictions. As I mentioned before, tobacco has really done a number on my family. Still I miss the smell and I miss the friendship and companionship cigarettes gave me.

Every once in a while I would love to have a cold bottle of beer too and for the same reasons.

My reasons for giving up these items really is not because I think of them as sinful in themselves. Cheese certainly is not sinful in and off itself. And I guess for all my ranting and raving, I think the same way about an occasional puff of pot.

I think my position, however foolish it might sound, is to recognize in myself what it means to know and understand what sin is. Sin may have nothing to do with an object or perhaps even a behavior. It is something deep inside of each one of us that rebels against goodness.

Danger and evil fascinates all of us. This fascination may possibly come from an evolutionary intelligence that tells us we have to study closely that which may harm. Rattlesnakes and coral snakes are beautiful. Black widow spiders are shiny black and red and are also beautiful oh so very interesting to watch. In order to survive we need to understand the dangers in the physical world and I think that this a true in our emotional and spiritual being as well.

I think (and this is my own musings) that sin enters in when we come to love the harmful things that fascinate us so much and we, in our pride believe that we can control what they will do to us.

My ranting and raving about drugs come from being a mother, a grandmother, an aunt and foster mother and life time of raising all these children. I have seen first hand what happens to children who come from homes of addictions.

 

[biggybig]

I had a very frustrating confession today.

I live in a state where marijuana is legal. At my last confession, a priest and I agreed that in a legal setting, used in extreme moderation for relaxation ONLY (not “getting high”), and done in a way that is not unhealthy, that it is possible to use marijuana as one might use alcohol without sinning mortally (although he said that it might be a venial sin to seek out that feeling through marijuana).

Anyway, I almost never use it (twice in the last year), and the last time I used it, I took a bite of a pot cookie and it turned out to be a little to intense for my taste. This was an accident. So I confessed this to a different priest this time and he basically said that all use of marijuana is a serious sin and that even drinking alcohol to relax is wrong. WHAT???

So I argued with him for awhile, saying that I wasn’t sure I should even be absolved since I was not resolved NEVER to use it again for mild relaxation because there are no health risks and people use all sorts of substances to produce a physical effect (chamomile tea to sleep, coffee to become alert, etc.) and that if one uses marijuana in a healthy way without the intent to get high or lose one’s ability to reason, that it should be the same as drinking alcohol.

Well, he was adamant and I dare say misinformed about the health effects of it. We all know that alcohol is much worse for you than small amounts of marijuana and that even smoking cigarettes is not mortally sinful and those are terrible for you!

Anyway, he basically said that unless one needs it for anxiety, it is a sin (and a serious one at that). Well, I told him I had heard conflicting things from other priests and I asked him if it might not be up to the individual conscience since the Vatican has not spoken definitively on it. He cited the Catechism’s passage on drugs (which I always took to mean crack, heroin, pills, etc., not pot, alcohol and cigarettes).

I told him that I DO have anxiety (which is true) and he said that it might be ok then and then granted me absolution.

My questions are these:

I do have anxiety, but I did not really mean to intimate that I use pot to “cope” with it. On the extremely rare occasion that I do it, it is to generally relax and have fun with my husband on the couch with a couple of drinks. Nothing crazy, not getting wasted. So I didn’t really mean to imply that I am dependent on this for relief from panic attacks or anything. As I said, I rarely use it, but I can’t say I am “resolved” never to use it again because I don’t think that using it in such a way is a mortal sin any more than using alcohol to relax is one. So I guess I am asking if my absolution seems like a valid one? Or if the idea that it may have been implied that I use it for anxiety might make it invalid?

I didn’t intend for it to come off that way-I just sort of realized later that it may have seemed like I use it to cope with anxiety, which isn’t true.

2.) I am TIRED of getting conflicting information from different priests!
Who do I believe? One thinks pot is the devil and the other thinks it is a venial matter if done just for feelings of well-being. If I have to resolve never to commit a mortal sin again for a valid confession, I need to know what the heck a mortal sin is?

How can I give a valid confession if I don’t even know what to resolve not to do?

Is my confession invalid because I didn’t resolve never to use marijuana again? Or is it valid because it really isn’t a serious sin anyway?

Sorry for the long post, I’m just confused as to who to believe and how to approach the confession of such things going forward.

Thanks

wow! Ok, before I answer you I should let you know that I have experience ( when I was younger and dummer ) with drug use of all kinds. I can tell you that marijuana use is serious sin. You cannot get drunk off of one drink, which is why it is ok. Me and my wife regularly have a glass of wine (red) at night. You should not be getting drunk. It is a sin. With marijuana, as in other drugs, there is no middle ground. You are either high/intoxicated or sober, there is no in between. If a priest tells you that smoking marijuana to get high is ok, he is wrong. If you are telling me that you “need” it for “anxiety” I would tell you to man up and learn to deal with life in a holy manner. That’s what the sacraments are for, a tool for you to be more holy. It is a righteous en devour. There are legit reasons for medical marijuana use(supposedly), but those circumstances are rare, counter to what the culture tells you. If in confession you are telling the priest something that you do not believe is a sin, then it ceases to be a confession, at least to that sin of being intoxicated. So, not valid. Other sins confessed would be. I apologize. I hadn’t read any other posts other than the first. So, I am ignorant of any new facts or statements that might be relevant to the situation from other posters. The reason I replied, is because I have actually smoked marijuana, as well as many other hard drugs, so you cannot pull the wool over my eyes and tell me some falsehood about how marijuana is no big deal. Stop doing it! It is a sin

 

[biggybig]

As far as marijuana goes I think the only moral implication is where it is illegal. I have never used marijuana, but believe it is no worse than alcohol and tobacco and should be legalized and taxed. That being said, I find it morally questionable when “law abiding” middle class people buy and use the drug with no repercussions, while small time dealers are filling courts and jails. So, for me, using in an illegal drug has greater moral implications.

As far as the church goes, I think the priest you encountered may have been a bit over the top. As far as alcohol goes, just point out that Jesus’ first miracle was turning water into wine. Pope Benedict is the man in the middle of the photo below. The man on the left is Karl Rahner, one of the greatest twentieth century theologians.

WRONG!
As Mao Tse Tsung once said, the law is the great teacher. Just because some thing is legal does NOT make it moral. IE abortion, adultry, fornication, etc…

 

[biggybig]

I don’s use drugs to cope with my problems. There are about 3 hours a week during which I am awake and my kids are asleep. During those hours, I like to have a few drinks with my husband and maybe watch a movie. I have used marijuana twice in 12 months, and I do not like to get “high”. I like to relax for a couple of hours. I don’t see the moral difference between alcohol and marijuana where this is concerned, except that this priest said even using alcohol to relax is wrong, which completely goes against everything I have ever heard, including from the Bible.

Is something a mortal sin just because a priest says it is, even when the Church has remained relatively silent on the matter? Am I obligated under the pain of mortal sin or an invalid confession to avoid something that the priest believes to be a mortal sin when I have heard conflicting things from another priest?

This is why I am annoyed and confused. I really prayed today to have a good confession that would give me peace, as I do have anxiety and some scrupulosity, and what I got was even more confusion.

I think God recognizes our human need to relax and feel good from time to time using the things he put on the earth in moderation. Alcohol has been used and even manufactured by Catholics for centuries to this end.

You are “annoyed and confused” because you want to do what you want to do with out someone making you feel guilty about it. Where is your scrupulosity? Do you not avoid sin? Do you hate sin? If you do, then just the chance of it being a sin should deter you from smoking pot. If you have a problem with authority, you have a problem with God.

 

[biggybig]

By the catechism’s definition, alcohol and cigarettes are clearly drugs, and yet those are not inherently sinful. Caffeine also falls under this category. Obviously the Church allows for drugs that are not among those prohibited. Cigarettes literally kill 25% of the people who smoke them throughout their lives, and I know that cigarettes are not strictly prohibited and that many priests smoke them themselves. They are also highly addictive.

And no, my money doesn’t go to a drug cartel, it goes to the state. Marijuana is legal and taxed in Colorado and grown on-site.

And I’m sorry, but “your hubby should be enough” is kind of a silly statement. We aren’t Puritans. Nothing wrong with a little drinking and relaxing. Ask an Irish priest.

I have a proposal!
Stop asking questions if you will not hear the answer

 

[chefmomster2]

Biston Globe
By Kay Lazar | GLOBE STAFF APRIL 15, 2014

“Study finds brain changes in young marijuana users”

Young adults who occasionally smoke marijuana show abnormalities in two key areas of their brain related to emotion, motivation, and decision making, raising concerns that they could be damaging their developing minds at a critical time, according to a new study by Boston researchers.

Scans revealed that the nucleus accumbens was larger in marijuana users, compared with nonusers, and its alteration was directly related to how much the person smoked. The nucleus accumbens is a hub in the brain that is involved with decision making and motivation. Structural changes were also seen in the amygdala, which is involved with emotional behavior.

These changes, Gilman said, may be evidence that the brain is forming new connections that encourage further drug use, “a sort of drug learning process.” The study did not address whether the brain changes are permanent.

“It’s fairly reasonable to draw the conclusion now that marijuana does alter the structure of the brain, as demonstrated in this study,” Gitlow said, “and that structural alteration is responsible, at least to some degree, for the cognitive changes we have seen in other studies.”

bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/health-wellness/2014/04/15/casual-marijuana-use-creates-brain-changes-new-report-shows/X1cN8A7h5pOVJkeYkXTXlJ/story.html

---

This study was released yesterday. It may not atand up to scrutiny once larger-scale studies are done, but it is worth knowing about in the context of this thread.

As Catholics we have a responsibility to safeguard our bodies and our minds. This study points out that we cannot say with any certainty that marijuana smoking is “safe”. Certainly smoking, tobacco or cannabis, is a known health risk.

---

There is also an issue involving drinking and/or smoking when children are present and relying upon us for their safety and care. Children who are sleeping still are still present. They need adults who are caring for them to be 100% ckear-headed and prepared for anything.

 

[glendab]

Well , we’ve gone there. And my conclusion is this: The lady wants her pot and she’s not willing to give it up and disagrees with the Church’s position on the use of drugs one of which pot is and justifies her drug abuse by comparing it’s abuse to cigarettes and booze, which BTW isn’t the first time the dodge has been used to cover your bets smoking weed. We’ve all heard that justification before. It doesn’t work.

What I’d like to see spoken of is the expectation that the legality of reefer in the lady’s home State and the anticipated “change” of the Church’s stance on pot regarding the same. It seemed to me from several comments that the legality is what some expect would remove the grave nature of the sin of smoking pot. It **is **worth discussing.

Glenda

 

[fencersmother]

The lady wants her pot and she’s not willing to give it up and disagrees with the Church’s position on the use of drugs one of which pot is and justifies her drug abuse by comparing it’s abuse to cigarettes and booze, which BTW isn’t the first time the dodge has been used to cover your bets smoking weed. We’ve all heard that justification before. It doesn’t work*.

Glenda is correct. First is was “I use marijuana just twice a year” (and it’s just legal THIS past 4 months). Then, “my husband an I relax with laced cookies and wine.” Then, " I have anxiety issues so just twice a year, mind you, I bake up some marijuana brownies and we watch movies and take care of my bad anxiety, again, just twice a year, and now it’s legal."

Sorry DoNotWorry… you want to use marijuana (and wine, apparently) because you want to get high, to wash away your cares in a cloud of drug-induced feel-good.

Not judging you since there have been many times when I thought “one xanax is good, three MUST be better.” But… especially in confession: you must admit WHY you are using this drug. It’s not to relax, and that is clear from your arguments.

 

[DoNotWorry]

You know, giving up cigarettes was hard for me but not near as hard as giving up cheese will be.

I wasn’t particularly addicted to cigarettes but the smell of the smoke has always brought back wonderful memories. Reason does not enter into addictions. As I mentioned before, tobacco has really done a number on my family. Still I miss the smell and I miss the friendship and companionship cigarettes gave me.

Every once in a while I would love to have a cold bottle of beer too and for the same reasons.

My reasons for giving up these items really is not because I think of them as sinful in themselves. Cheese certainly is not sinful in and off itself. And I guess for all my ranting and raving, I think the same way about an occasional puff of pot.

I think my position, however foolish it might sound, is to recognize in myself what it means to know and understand what sin is. Sin may have nothing to do with an object or perhaps even a behavior. It is something deep inside of each one of us that rebels against goodness.

Danger and evil fascinates all of us. This fascination may possibly come from an evolutionary intelligence that tells us we have to study closely that which may harm. Rattlesnakes and coral snakes are beautiful. Black widow spiders are shiny black and red and are also beautiful oh so very interesting to watch. In order to survive we need to understand the dangers in the physical world and I think that this a true in our emotional and spiritual being as well.

I think (and this is my own musings) that sin enters in when we come to love the harmful things that fascinate us so much and we, in our pride believe that we can control what they will do to us.

My ranting and raving about drugs come from being a mother, a grandmother, an aunt and foster mother and life time of raising all these children. I have seen first hand what happens to children who come from homes of addictions.

Thank you so much for your clarity and honesty. This was a wonderful post

 

[DoNotWorry]

The lady wants her pot and she’s not willing to give it up and disagrees with the Church’s position on the use of drugs one of which pot is and justifies her drug abuse by comparing it’s abuse to cigarettes and booze, which BTW isn’t the first time the dodge has been used to cover your bets smoking weed. We’ve all heard that justification before. It doesn’t work*.

Glenda is correct. First is was “I use marijuana just twice a year” (and it’s just legal THIS past 4 months). Then, “my husband an I relax with laced cookies and wine.” Then, " I have anxiety issues so just twice a year, mind you, I bake up some marijuana brownies and we watch movies and take care of my bad anxiety, again, just twice a year, and now it’s legal."

Sorry DoNotWorry… you want to use marijuana (and wine, apparently) because you want to get high, to wash away your cares in a cloud of drug-induced feel-good.

Not judging you since there have been many times when I thought “one xanax is good, three MUST be better.” But… especially in confession: you must admit WHY you are using this drug. It’s not to relax, and that is clear from your arguments.

Actually lady, it has been legal in Colorado to use for quite some time. It has been legal to BUY for 4 months. So there you go.

And I DID tell my confessor why I use it. To relax. Verbatim.

And I would appreciate if you would stop accusing me of lying about how often I use it. I used to use it all the time. This is not my first rodeo. So when I say “hubby and I like to”, that is what I mean. I had ONE joint with him last April that we did not purchase that took us almost a WEEK to get through, and 2 bites of a cookie 2 weeks ago. So lay off.

My main problem is hearing conflicting information from different priests. Yes, I like to relax, de-stress, get a little fuzzy on the couch while my kids are asleep once a week. I am a stay-at-home mom with a nearly genius IQ and some OCD/scrupulosity. I am the one dragging everyone to church and confession and doing Bible study and saying nighttime prayers with the kids. So when my faith is shaken or damaged by a bunch of priests who can’t seem to agree, MY WHOLE FAMILY’S faith is at risk of collapse, because it all hinges on ME.

And when the one thing I RARELY allow myself to make my brain stop buzzing and going in infinite loops and 100 miles an hour aside from alcohol (which literally takes me about 8 drinks because I have the tolerance of an elephant in a 108 pound body), and which also helps me to calm down enough to do some of the very few things I do for ME, such as reading and writing books with more than 10 words, then I am upset, yes.

The judgement on this site never ceases to amaze me.

 

[HelenRose]

This has been an informative thread for me. I think I will now back out: mainly because I realize that I am off and on again addicted to the Internet. I get started with an interesting conversation and get very little else done.

Thank you all for for a good conversation that has left me with much to think about.

 

[Chayla]

My conclusion:

You DON’T need to confess it, if:

• You are an adult.
• It’s legal where you live.
• You use it responsibly (not in front of children, not while driving, etc.)
• You use it in moderation.

My interest in this subject matter is related to the great relief that a friend of mine received, as discussed in another thread which I created.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=873886

 

[maryjk]

Well , we’ve gone there. And my conclusion is this: The lady wants her pot and she’s not willing to give it up and disagrees with the Church’s position on the use of drugs one of which pot is and justifies her drug abuse by comparing it’s abuse to cigarettes and booze, which BTW isn’t the first time the dodge has been used to cover your bets smoking weed. We’ve all heard that justification before. It doesn’t work.

What I’d like to see spoken of is the expectation that the legality of reefer in the lady’s home State and the anticipated “change” of the Church’s stance on pot regarding the same. It seemed to me from several comments that the legality is what some expect would remove the grave nature of the sin of smoking pot. It **is **worth discussing.

Glenda

You forgot to say, “which the OP also uses.”

Sorry, but this conversation has gone from, it is recreational use, to relax. To, well, people use it medically. To, it isn’t any worse than alcohol. To, cigarettes are worse.

That is called justification.

It seems quite obvious that no one will convince the OP that smoking/eating/whatever pot is wrong. She likes it. She likes how it makes her feel. So it must be okay, and by gosh, she is a genius, so she should know.

All I can hope is that the twice a year usage, stays just twice a year.