Frustrating discussion with a protestant friend of mine

[Stephen168]

mmmm, but he left the apocrypha.
And if you want to be perfectly honest about it, each denomination has there own twist on the scriptures.

Are you claiming each denomination has their own Table of Contents for what is scripture? Do you have your own?

 

[Micah11]

What do you mean by twist?

Which denominations?

Different wording to support their own doctrines.
All of 'em do it.

For example:
Luke 1

Catholic
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Douay Rheims)

Protestant
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (King James Version)

Jehovah’s Witness
to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David’s house; and the name of the virgin was Mary
.28And when he went in before her he said: “Good day, highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.” [they drop the rest of the verse] (New World Translation)

 

[Della]

Thanks to all for the great advice.

I’m just worried that I might have avalanched too much information on him at once and thus it put him in a defensive position. A case in point would be when I pointed out that the Catholic Church is the true and most trustworthy church (by mentioning a lot of historical facts), he replied with an emphatic “NO”…as if he just couldn’t accept that the Church of Rome is the true Church.

Should I have been easier in my approach?

It can be hard to tell how much info it too much at any one time. As you say, it seems to be too much for him to take in just now. Let what you said sink in and let him make the next move. If he wants to talk more about the Catholic faith, he’ll bring it up. Just be there for him and pray.

 

[JillianRose]

Adoration -could- be construed as worship using modern vernacular. However, Catholics use it in its older sense, which is:

We love and admire Mary for her role in the life of Jesus. Because of this deep respect for her, we honor her… well, that and Jesus told us to:

Jesus made Mary the mother of all, and hhas God commands us to honor our mothers and fathers, it is only logical that we honor Mary as well.

Thanks for answering for me. I have been busy with my baby all day. Very nice of you.

 

[Micah11]

Thanks to all for the great advice.

I’m just worried that I might have avalanched too much information on him at once and thus it put him in a defensive position. A case in point would be when I pointed out that the Catholic Church is the true and most trustworthy church (by mentioning a lot of historical facts), he replied with an emphatic “NO”…as if he just couldn’t accept that the Church of Rome is the true Church.

Should I have been easier in my approach?

Excuse me, I know this isn’t addressed to me but if I may-

This line-

that the Catholic Church is the true and most trustworthy church

… will cause people to immediately shut down. I don’t care if it’s catholic talking to protestant or protestant talking to catholic, or protestant talking to mormon, whatever.
Nobody listens to this. Everybody thinks their church is the greatest.

Unless the listener happens to mention that they are looking for a church,
I think it’s better for people to talk about why they like their church and just let it go.
Otherwise it will forever be- freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/fence.gif

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Micah11]

Jesus made Mary the mother of all, and as God commands us to honor our mothers and fathers, it is only logical that we honor Mary as well.

But see, you interpret Jesus entrusting the care of Mary to John as making Mary mother of us all- and that’s ok.
But I don’t. Yes, I respect the sacrifice that she made and the responsibility she had.
but that’s about it.

 

[mikelionheart]

Different wording to support their own doctrines.
All of 'em do it.

For example:
Luke 1

Catholic
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Douay Rheims)

Protestant
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (King James Version)

Jehovah’s Witness
to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David’s house; and the name of the virgin was Mary
.28And when he went in before her he said: “Good day, highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.” [they drop the rest of the verse] (New World Translation)

So the answer would be to look at the original/earliest texts and see which is the most accurate.

What about translations of the Bible from non religious sources?

How would an Oxford scholar translate that verse?

 

[Micah11]

Personally, I think it’s good to use several translations, checking with the manuscripts for clarification. I reject the NWT completely for adding the name Jehovah to the NT selectively to support watchtower doctrines.

 

[mikelionheart]

Personally, I think it’s good to use several translations, checking with the manuscripts for clarification. I reject the NWT completely for adding the name Jehovah to the NT selectively to support watchtower doctrines.

Here here.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[JonNC]

So were the writings that Luther edited out of the Bible.

Luther’s translation has 74 books.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Different wording to support their own doctrines.
All of 'em do it.

For example:
Luke 1

Catholic
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (Douay Rheims)

Protestant
To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (King James Version)

Jehovah’s Witness
to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David’s house; and the name of the virgin was Mary
.28And when he went in before her he said: “Good day, highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.” [they drop the rest of the verse] (New World Translation)

Not all protestants use the KJV as a rule. And this protestant sees, "full of grace’ and “highly favored” as a distinction that lacks a difference.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

Personally, I think it’s good to use several translations, checking with the manuscripts for clarification. I reject the NWT completely for adding the name Jehovah to the NT selectively to support watchtower doctrines.

That’s the least of the problems with the NWT.

 

[Micah11]

Not all protestants use the KJV as a rule. And this protestant sees, "full of grace’ and “highly favored” as a distinction that lacks a difference.

Jon

Only in terms of the prayer, Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Douhy Rheims is the only version that has this wording.

NKJV, NASB, NIV, Amplified all use other wording, but I agree - the meanings are similar.

 

[Micah11]

That’s the least of the problems with the NWT.

Absolutely! I really don’t understand why it’s called a “translation” at all.

 

[Erich]

1 - My friend started to allege that although God is Trinity, there was a time pre-genesis that God fused into 1 being as the father alone and that the “separation” of persons happened later… I pointed out to him that God has always been trinity as the scripture says God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He still kept pushing his ideology despite this
…
3- He claims he doesn’t trust the Church and believes in the bible alone.

If he believes #3 then he can’t believe #1 (and vice versa).

The Bible says, “For I, the Lord, do not change” (Mal 3:6). If he believes #1, his Bible contradicts him. If he believes #3, then #1 can’t be true.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

The whole statue in the yard, flowers/candles around the picture deal, kneeling before it all…the usual.

BTW I’m not anti-catholic, I’m anti-denominational.

I’m not sure why you see a cogent reason for being anti-Catholic here. “The usual” is quite easily explained by those who understand the reasoning behind these sorts of practices.

If this is the only problem you have with Catholicism, I think you owe it to yourself to do a bit of homework first. I hope that’s why you’re here in the first place, and that you’ve come to the forums with an open mind.

The www.Catholic.com website has lots of free information regarding prayers to saints, and the Marian dogmas. They do a nice job of explaining them in simple terms, with lots of source material cited. There’s also Karl Keating’s book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism, which addresses a lot of misconceptions about the Catholic faith in addition to misconceptions regarding Mary and the other saints.

Peace,
Robert