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DarkLight
Guest
Most of my friends are either from such groups, or dating women from such groups. In general I’ve found the girls they date are both younger than the men and more conservative.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
My immediate thought – and take this for what it’s worth – is that you should find a chaste gay guy, strike up a friendship, see if it deepens, and maybe even move toward marriage. Chaste gay guys are hard to find, I guess, but not impossible.
Also, I find myself wondering if you were sexually abused as a child. Please don’t feel obliged to say if you were, of course. But abuse often does lead to such an aversion to sexual intimacy as you describe.
Also, I find myself wondering if you were sexually abused as a child. Please don’t feel obliged to say if you were, of course. But abuse often does lead to such an aversion to sexual intimacy as you describe.
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Xantippe
Guest
Yes.
If the friendships have repeatedly caused problems, I think it’s time to dial it down to social with your married and dating male friends and look for close friends within your own sex.
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Xantippe
Guest
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Xantippe
Guest
Here’s something relevant from 1 Corinthians 7:
“An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.”
Similarly, with your friends, when they were single, they were able to be everybody’s friend, but when they have girlfriends and wives, they have to think about keeping their wives happy.
It’s the celibacy/marriage issue–a married person is less available to the world at large.
“An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord’s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband. I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.”
Similarly, with your friends, when they were single, they were able to be everybody’s friend, but when they have girlfriends and wives, they have to think about keeping their wives happy.
It’s the celibacy/marriage issue–a married person is less available to the world at large.
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DarkLight
Guest
If the good Lord and my writing sample are willing, yes! It’s got to be better out of this town. Sleepy little place.
(Not that I’d turn it down if I got into the school in this town…how on earth did such a school end up in such a rural little corner of America?)
But yeah, I’m hoping it’ll be better once I get more female friends. Maybe end up somewhere that isn’t quite as much of a sausagefest as my last program? I’m not in a high women field but below 5% has got to be uncommon.
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PrayerShark
Guest
Call me crazy, but why not become best buds with your local priest? No wife or love interest there to distract him (well there shouldn’t be) and he’d probably welcome the regular company. You can kick back with a micro-brew and discuss Proust on Friday nights.
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DarkLight
Guest
Depends - is he going to look at me crazy for speculating on transubstantiation when one doesn’t believe that common objects such as bread have essences? Us philosophers get ourselves into trouble that way!
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
You are crazy.
Sadly these days this is not a good idea and a priest would be counseled to avoid such situations.
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Prodigal_Son
Guest
As one philosopher to another, what could it mean to say that an object does not have an essence?Depends - is he going to look at me crazy for speculating on transubstantiation when one doesn’t believe that common objects such as bread have essences? Us philosophers get ourselves into trouble that way!
Is the claim that the object isn’t capable of changing, without becoming a completely different object?
Is the claim that objects like bread are compositional, so that the “real things” that make up bread are at the sub-atomic level? But in that case, why couldn’t one say that the atomistic reality of the bread is the same atomistic reality as Christ’s body?
I can’t say I’ve thought about this a whole lot, but I’m curious what your view is.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
DL:Depends - is he going to look at me crazy for speculating on transubstantiation when one doesn’t believe that common objects such as bread have essences? Us philosophers get ourselves into trouble that way!
The natural order is for people to find a spouse. This dates back to the creation of Man in the very beginning. It was not good for him to be alone. Any real connection you have with someone now will not be life lasting if that person gets married and has a family, no matter what the wife thinks of you. Kids, jobs, life, all take over. As well they should. It is your position that is the one that does not fit. Blaming others or even complaining about the behavior of others is counter production to the introspection you may be due yourself.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
speculating or denying? There is a huge difference. One may be something many or everyone does. Another should keep you from communion in the first place…Depends - is he going to look at me crazy for speculating on transubstantiation when one doesn’t believe that common objects such as bread have essences? Us philosophers get ourselves into trouble that way!
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DarkLight
Guest
As one philosopher to another, what could it mean to say that an object does not have an essence?
Is the claim that the object isn’t capable of changing, without becoming a completely different object?
Is the claim that objects like bread are compositional, so that the “real things” that make up bread are at the sub-atomic level? But in that case, why couldn’t one say that the atomistic reality of the bread is the same atomistic reality as Christ’s body?
I can’t say I’ve thought about this a whole lot, but I’m curious what your view is.
It’s the former - the belief that essentially compositional objects (restricted to common inanimate objects) do not of themselves possess essences. The naming of bread as a thing is mere convention. This of course does not hold for non-composite objects, such as any sort of person.
The “essence” theory is not in itself a necessary part of transubstantiation, but an admittedly popular way of describing it that doesn’t do all that well when translated into more formal philosophical language. It is not necessary to hold the belief in essences of bread and wine to believe that the host is the true Body and not bread, as the Church teaches. She does not presume to instruct the philosopher about tables and chairs and other such common objects, matter utterly aside from faith and morals!
Does the church have no place for the single life? It is not good to be alone, yet the Church has recognized since the early days that not all are called to marriage. Why would one who feels called to being single give that up, merely because our modern society has little place for the single adult to have human connections? Were I to embark on the ancient path of the consecrated virgin, what would you advise if I came with the same issues, that it seemed difficult to find and form connections with others because intimacy of any sort seemed to be reserved for family?
I am willing to change, certainly, but so far what I have tried hasn’t been terribly helpful. And I do not think trying to force myself to a marriage when I would never desire husband or children is right. If the good Lord wished things to be otherwise I am sure he could have made me differently - but there is no command to marry and it seems in my state it would be near impossible to approach the sacrament properly.
It was much easier when I had Mass available every day. Now it is not possible - the Mass is early on weekdays and the bus would not take me in on time even if I could do that hour.
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Prodigal_Son
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Good. An interesting question is whether God has the power to transform things without essences into things with essences. He must, since human beings are (a) made of matter, and (b) once did not exist. So I don’t see why it would be a problem to change the “meaningless” matter of bread into the meaningful matter of a human body. It boggles the mind, but it’s by no means incoherent.
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Xantippe
Guest
Fortunately, Catholics do have an honored place in our institutional life for the unmarried.
DL, check out the 3rd order Dominicans. That might be your cup of tea.
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Xantippe
Guest
Also, come to think of it, it’s easier to make friends with people in a somewhat different stage of life online. I have a number of email buddies who are women 10 and 15 years older than me. I hope to meet them in real life someday.
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Kal2012
Guest
DL: Yes, being single is frustrating. For all the reasons you mentioned.
This has actually led to a few really amazing opportunities for him professionally, but that’s not the primary point of the group that he became a member of. Since starting, he and his friends have gone to conferences together; they had a BBQ one year where I met some of them; they do ‘capture the flag’ events together. He has a blast and he has a friendship circle that isn’t just me (or his friends that aren’t in town anymore!) He even takes our son out to some of the tamer movies that they want to see, if they go at a reasonable time. (i.e. How to Tame your dragon, Muppets…etc). (Some of the other guys have kids too, so it works out well.)
A lot of spouses know they are married to their BFF, so any other friendships are going to be less deep and meaningful, just by virtue of that fact.
- Take a class, Do some volunteer work or find a social activity that you’d like to do. Meetup.com is a good resource. My single friends range in age and have a variety of activities that keep them busy.
- The thing that seems to be neglected in this conversation is the fact that it is perfectly natural for friendships to change over time. I have people who I consider friends who I haven’t seen for years because our schedules just never coordinate and we don’t live close by. Even when we do live close by, it’s not we live next door either.
- It does take work to find the right groups to be in, regardless if you are single or married.
This has actually led to a few really amazing opportunities for him professionally, but that’s not the primary point of the group that he became a member of. Since starting, he and his friends have gone to conferences together; they had a BBQ one year where I met some of them; they do ‘capture the flag’ events together. He has a blast and he has a friendship circle that isn’t just me (or his friends that aren’t in town anymore!) He even takes our son out to some of the tamer movies that they want to see, if they go at a reasonable time. (i.e. How to Tame your dragon, Muppets…etc). (Some of the other guys have kids too, so it works out well.)
- You really need to realize that you are in a minority and that wanting to be single/kidless is really a unique position to take. I know a few couples who don’t want(or have) kids. Most the single people I know don’t want to be single. They are in a relationship or they want a relationship. So being single and not wanting a relationship is kinda “weird” (for lack of a better word) from most people’s point of view.
A lot of spouses know they are married to their BFF, so any other friendships are going to be less deep and meaningful, just by virtue of that fact.
- It’s also weird to be married when all of your friends are still single and looking for “the one”.
- It’s also weird when you realize that you’ve been married longer than your parents were. And that you’ve only had one marriage and they had multiple marriages.
- Life is just weird and we all have challenges.
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
Before giving advice, I need a point of clarification, since the OP seemed to go back and forth. Are you lamenting that what you want is inappropriate with married men, or are you trying to say that what you want is not inappropriate?
You go back and forth in your posts between wanting deep, intimate friendships with married men and then talking about a casual coffee meeting. What kinds of things do you want to be able to discuss with these male friends?
You go back and forth in your posts between wanting deep, intimate friendships with married men and then talking about a casual coffee meeting. What kinds of things do you want to be able to discuss with these male friends?
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BlueEyedLady
Guest
Now that I’m at a computer, I can type out a complete response. I feel like this thread was the result of the argument that occurred on the ‘Husband and Female Friends’ thread. There you stated over and over that a person should dump their friends for their spouse’s comfort. But in this thread, you use words and phrases like ‘intimacy’, ‘deep’, ‘connection’, and ‘very close friend’. As fine as my husband and I are with opposite sex friends-you had better believe that I would insist that my husband’s female “friend” get as far away from us as possible if I heard either one of them using words like that to describe their friendship.
Those words imply a lot of things. Those words are used to describe friends who confide in each other, sacrifice for each other, and are involved in many aspects of each other’s lives. Let me make this very clear: No woman is going to use my husband as her trusted confidant. Period. At all. Ever. End of story. The idea of another woman sitting down for a heart to heart with my husband talking about her personal problems and confiding her secrets in him makes me as angry as the idea of another woman kissing him. The idea of him reciprocating-confiding in her and turning to her in times of need, makes me as angry as the idea of him sleeping with another woman.
We hold and comfort each other in our times of need. That’s part of the exclusive nature of a marriage. The only problems that he may not feel comfortable taking to me are problems that we might have in our marriage-and that’s sure as heck not to be discussed with other women! (Or even other people. He’ll forgive me, but his mom, brother, and friends wouldn’t be as eager to do so once the issue is resolved.) If you were trying to have that kind of friendship with my husband, I would absolutely not trust you.
Casual friends? Sure. Good friends? Absolutely. But not close/intimate/deep friends. And even close friends of the opposite sex have to be friends of the couple-not just of one half.
The summer after my first year of college I worked in sales. I learned very quickly that if a couple came in, regardless of their age, that I should spend 60-75% of my time looking at and speaking to the woman-and all jokes or playful banter should be geared towards her too. Why? Because if the woman got even the slightest idea that I might be flirting with her boyfriend/husband, or the idea that he found me attractive, she would not allow them to buy from me. You should probably follow the same rule. When one of your friends starts dating a new girl, immediately extend an invitation for them both to go out for drinks with you-and be sure to say you’d love to get to know her. And then when you meet, make it clear that you are at least as interested in her as you are in him. I know you won’t be, but it’s the best way to safeguard against her thinking you are a threat.
I have to say though, you may want to seriously reconsider your behavior or your friends. If your friends treat you like a dirty little secret-they have ulterior motives and their girlfriends are right to be concerned about the friendship, and you should be too. If EVERY girl one of your friends starts dating views you as a threat, you may want to seriously reevaluate the way you interact with your friends. I have never before experienced this or even heard of a situation like this, and unless everyone you encounter has the maturity of an 8 year old or a serious character flaw, you might need some self-reflection.
And I say all of this as someone who has almost exclusively male friends and has managed to keep them throughout their relationships and my marriage.
Those words imply a lot of things. Those words are used to describe friends who confide in each other, sacrifice for each other, and are involved in many aspects of each other’s lives. Let me make this very clear: No woman is going to use my husband as her trusted confidant. Period. At all. Ever. End of story. The idea of another woman sitting down for a heart to heart with my husband talking about her personal problems and confiding her secrets in him makes me as angry as the idea of another woman kissing him. The idea of him reciprocating-confiding in her and turning to her in times of need, makes me as angry as the idea of him sleeping with another woman.
We hold and comfort each other in our times of need. That’s part of the exclusive nature of a marriage. The only problems that he may not feel comfortable taking to me are problems that we might have in our marriage-and that’s sure as heck not to be discussed with other women! (Or even other people. He’ll forgive me, but his mom, brother, and friends wouldn’t be as eager to do so once the issue is resolved.) If you were trying to have that kind of friendship with my husband, I would absolutely not trust you.
Casual friends? Sure. Good friends? Absolutely. But not close/intimate/deep friends. And even close friends of the opposite sex have to be friends of the couple-not just of one half.
The summer after my first year of college I worked in sales. I learned very quickly that if a couple came in, regardless of their age, that I should spend 60-75% of my time looking at and speaking to the woman-and all jokes or playful banter should be geared towards her too. Why? Because if the woman got even the slightest idea that I might be flirting with her boyfriend/husband, or the idea that he found me attractive, she would not allow them to buy from me. You should probably follow the same rule. When one of your friends starts dating a new girl, immediately extend an invitation for them both to go out for drinks with you-and be sure to say you’d love to get to know her. And then when you meet, make it clear that you are at least as interested in her as you are in him. I know you won’t be, but it’s the best way to safeguard against her thinking you are a threat.
I have to say though, you may want to seriously reconsider your behavior or your friends. If your friends treat you like a dirty little secret-they have ulterior motives and their girlfriends are right to be concerned about the friendship, and you should be too. If EVERY girl one of your friends starts dating views you as a threat, you may want to seriously reevaluate the way you interact with your friends. I have never before experienced this or even heard of a situation like this, and unless everyone you encounter has the maturity of an 8 year old or a serious character flaw, you might need some self-reflection.
And I say all of this as someone who has almost exclusively male friends and has managed to keep them throughout their relationships and my marriage.
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Xantippe
Guest
I suspect that DL is pretty enough that her behavior is almost irrelevant. She may be blind to the effect that she has on her male friends–an effect that their girlfriends might be uncomfortably aware of.
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