FSSP and SSPX

[Lormar]

I pray fervently for these negotiations.

But, Lormar, how do envision the Tridentine Mass having been preserved without the disobedience of the SSPX?

Do you think that only ABL said the old Mass? Do you know that there were quite a few priests that held onto it? The only reason you’ve never heard of them is because they weren’t archbishops or superior generals of their religious orders.

And even if no one preserved it, do you think that could have prevented Our Lord from brining it back? He didn’t need Lefebvre; He really doesn’t need any one of us to do anything. He simply uses us to accomplish (hopefully) His Will.

Honestly, I am a little shocked myself as to how well things are going in our beloved Church, which just goes to show me what I should have realized all along - God is in charge of the show! The SSPX lends itself too much importance. If they don’t get with the program soon, they’re just going to be left behind in the dust. The Church is changing “back” without them.

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

“shocked myself as to how well things are going” ??? Which Church are you a member of?

Also, if it wasn’t preserved, then who would be around to train new priest, altar boys, etc???

Do you think that only ABL said the old Mass? Do you know that there were quite a few priests that held onto it? The only reason you’ve never heard of them is because they weren’t archbishops or superior generals of their religious orders.

And even if no one preserved it, do you think that could have prevented Our Lord from brining it back? He didn’t need Lefebvre; He really doesn’t need any one of us to do anything. He simply uses us to accomplish (hopefully) His Will.

Honestly, I am a little shocked myself as to how well things are going in our beloved Church, which just goes to show me what I should have realized all along - God is in charge of the show! The SSPX lends itself too much importance. If they don’t get with the program soon, they’re just going to be left behind in the dust. The Church is changing “back” without them.

 

[Bbigam]

I pray fervently for these negotiations.

But, Lormar, how do envision the Tridentine Mass having been preserved without the disobedience of the SSPX?

I’m not Lormar, but if not for the sin of Adam (O happy fault!) we would not have the great good of our Redeemer, Christ, the Word Made Flesh, and His Passion and Resurrection. But that doesn’t make Adam’s sin acceptable in any way whatsoever.

 

[Lormar]

“shocked myself as to how well things are going” ??? Which Church are you a member of?

Also, if it wasn’t preserved, then who would be around to train new priest, altar boys, etc???

I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church. And you?

Do you keep up on things going on inside the Church - I mean, along with all of the bad things you are up on? If so, you would know that there are a few good traditional religious orders for men and women.

Do you honestly think that apart from the SSPX there can be no tradition?

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

Never said that, but the Church as a whole is in dire need of some housecleaning and reform…

I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church. And you?

Do you keep up on things going on inside the Church - I mean, along with all of the bad things you are up on? If so, you would know that there are a few good traditional religious orders for men and women.

Do you honestly think that apart from the SSPX there can be no tradition?

 

[Lormar]

Never said that, but the Church as a whole is in dire need of some housecleaning and reform…

Do you read what I write? I KNOW THAT THE CHURCH IS IN DIRE NEED OF HOUSECLEANING AND REFORM.

Of what help are the SSPX from where they are?

 

[Dum_Spiro_Spero]

Well, I personally believe that Benedict XVI will do the necessary purging while at the same time, bring the SSPX back fully into the fold and they will be the standard bearers. That is how I see things happening

Do you read what I write? I KNOW THAT THE CHURCH IS IN DIRE NEED OF HOUSECLEANING AND REFORM.

Of what help are the SSPX from where they are?

 

[Cristiano]

I was referring to the statistically not insignificant number of priests who do not believe in the True Presence…

Can you please give a reference? I am just curious because saying that something is statistically significant implies a very specific mathematical meaning. Using specific phraseology to acquire credibility for a hasty generalization would be not very charitable toward our priests.

 

[Cristiano]

That is really all I can ask, thanks.

The priest at our church (novus ordo) didn’t like the fact that some of us knelt to receive Communion, or in my case genuflected before receiving. After Communion, sitting in the chair up on the altar one Sunday he said "Those of you who think you are ‘holier than thou’ genuflecting before receiving Communion, all you are doing is worshiping the butt of the person in front of you.’ No lie … his exact words…

You should have told him: “The person in front of received before I knelt, at that point he became a tabernacle. I did not worship his butt but what was inside him” and then you should have asked: “Is it wrong to kneel in front of a tabernacle?”

BTW I would have not added; 'Kiss my …tt I am a tabernacle" that would have not been charitable.

 

[ProVobis]

Bear in mind that God could also have allowed the AB to obtain the papacy.

In fact, it’s been rumored that he actually received “several” votes during the election of JP-1, even though he was not a Cardinal.

 

[Ockham]

If they don’t get with the program soon, they’re just going to be left behind in the dust. The Church is changing “back” without them.

Considering the Church is changing back towards the practices and principles of the SSPX and other traditional orders, I think it is fair to say they are leading the way, not being left behind.

Jesus told us a prophet is hated in his own time and place. One day Archbishop Levebre could very well be made a saint and the SSPX held in the regard once bestowed upon the Jesuits.

We still have things like the LA Religious Conference, pro-choice Catholics, Taize ecumenical choirs, and the like. The Church has many different perspectives and the individual should be astute enough to discern which are more Catholic than others.

 

[ProVobis]

Do you think that only ABL said the old Mass? Do you know that there were quite a few priests that held onto it?

If there were, they said the old Mass in more private chapels. The older priests who were originally granted indults after 1970 didn’t exactly have local bishop full blessings to say the Mass and were dying off. A better question would be who was around and who would be around to teach the Latin Mass. Sure there were independent priests saying it but where was the incentive to teach it and were they in better standing than the SSPX priests?

Even with the 1984 Indult, there wasn’t great interest by the priests to say the 1962 Missal within the diocese. An NO-only priest wasn’t suddenly going to pick up a TLM missal and say it on an ad hoc basis. The SSPX were the only significant organized block of priests to carry through with the 1962 Missal. After the 1988 ED (or because of it) the FSSP was formed but was formed with ex-SSPX priests.

 

[Lormar]

In fact, it’s been rumored that he actually received “several” votes during the election of JP-1, even though he was not a Cardinal.

Can you verify this or is it only hearsay?

I would think that in all of the years that I spent with them, I would have heard this if it were true. It is only recently that this “rumor” began to surface.

 

[Lormar]

Considering the Church is changing back towards the practices and principles of the SSPX and other traditional orders, I think it is fair to say they are leading the way, not being left behind.

Jesus told us a prophet is hated in his own time and place. One day Archbishop Levebre could very well be made a saint and the SSPX held in the regard once bestowed upon the Jesuits.

We still have things like the LA Religious Conference, pro-choice Catholics, Taize ecumenical choirs, and the like. The Church has many different perspectives and the individual should be astute enough to discern which are more Catholic than others.

And there you have it:

“Considering the Church is changing back towards the practices and principles of the SSPX and other traditional orders, I think it is fair to say they are leading the way, not being left behind.”

The almighty SSPX! It is their practices and principles? This is the attitude that has caused not a few of your faithful to return to the Church.

Yes, there are still abundant problems in the Church (once again I will say it). Do you expect fifty years of untold damage to disappear overnight?

 

[ProVobis]

Can you verify this or is it only hearsay?

I would think that in all of the years that I spent with them, I would have heard this if it were true. It is only recently that this “rumor” began to surface.

I called it a “rumor” but you can draw your own conclusion:

From Wikipedia,

David Allen White’s biography of Lefebvre, The Horn of the Unicorn, reports that Lefebvre allegedly received a small number of votes (variously reported as three or “several”) in the August 1978 conclave that elected Pope John Paul I. This was said to have caused some consternation among the cardinals as Lefebvre was not a cardinal, and casting a vote for a non-cardinal in a papal election is unusual, although permitted by Church law.

 

[distracted]

what is FSSP?

 

[pnewton]

Considering the Church is changing back towards the practices and principles of the SSPX and other traditional orders, I think it is fair to say they are leading the way, not being left behind.

Driving down the the road today there was a railroad track running parallel to me. I passed a train going the same way I was. This does not logically mean I was leading the train in any sense of the word.

If the SSPX wants postitions of leadership in the Catholic Church, they first need to get on board completely. That is step one. Hopefully these talks will result in a regularization of their status. Then, by all means, let them stick to their core beliefs, maintain obedience to the Church and let us see where the Holy Spirit leads.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Can you please give a reference? I am just curious because saying that something is statistically significant implies a very specific mathematical meaning. Using specific phraseology to acquire credibility for a hasty generalization would be not very charitable toward our priests.

Agreed. I didn’t give a number because I didn’t have a proper reference. But I will dig up the number and source. I believe the survey was done from within the church.

 

[pnewton]

what is FSSP?

The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.
fssp.org/

It split off from the SSPX in 1988.

 

[Ockham]

The almighty SSPX! It is their practices and principles? This is the attitude that has caused not a few of **your **faithful to return to the Church.

I’m not a part of the SSPX.

The SSPX stayed faithful to the traditions of the Church not adopting the modernist novelties and improvisations of the past forty years. Now the Church is slowly working its way back to where it began.

Yep. I’d say God blessed those ardent defenders of the faith. Jesus told us the path would be narrow.