"full, conscious and active participation"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lapey
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
YoungTradCath said:
Would you please illustrate how Corki is wrong rather than by simply capitalizing the word in such a sophomoric manner? I’m glad you feel more “participatory” than other people simply because you get to be a [sic] “Eucharistic minister,” but that is where we clash.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I’d like to see how she can illustrate that I am wrong without also saying the Church is wrong. :rolleyes: What I have said is what the Church teaches and has taught through the centuries.
 
Brendan said:
I would be very interested to read any Church documents that describe this change in theology.

Do you have any references?

Because Pope Benedict made the opposite claim, in fact going so far as stating that the theology of the Mass was the same, not only in the Roman Rite, but amongst the Eastern Catholic Churches as well.
Click to expand...
Well…if it wasn’t thought then why on the “been to the TLM” thread does someone quote in post #5 from the Latin Mass society questions for those that might be considering it…and one of them is “doesn’t the theology of the TLM differ from the theology of Vatican II?”

Just asking…it struck me as I was reading through it…🤷
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
Well…if it wasn’t thought then why on the “been to the TLM” thread does someone quote in post #5 from the Latin Mass society questions for those that might be considering it…and one of them is “doesn’t the theology of the TLM differ from the theology of Vatican II?”

Just asking…it struck me as I was reading through it…🤷
Click to expand...
I can’t comprehend what you mean by this, as that question and answer in no way supports that assertion. In that thread, a link to several questions was given. The site is that of the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales, and the question I think you are referring to is number three, “Isn’t the theology of the Traditional Mass at odds with the theology of Vatican II?” and I’m not sure how that supports your claim, as the LMS does a pretty decent job of destroying it.

In other words, no, the theology of the Traditional Mass is in no way at odds with the theology of Vatican II, and the LMS answer to that question in no way states anything to the contrary. It gives a rather in-depth answer. Please read:

lms.org.uk/faqs#qa3
 
YoungTradCath said:
I can’t comprehend what you mean by this, as that question and answer in no way supports that assertion. In that thread, a link to several questions was given. The site is that of the Latin Mass Society of England and Wales, and the question I think you are referring to is number three, “Isn’t the theology of the Traditional Mass at odds with the theology of Vatican II?” and I’m not sure how that supports your claim, as the LMS does a pretty decent job of destroying it.

In other words, no, the theology of the Traditional Mass is in no way at odds with the theology of Vatican II, and the LMS answer to that question in no way states anything to the contrary. It gives a rather in-depth answer. Please read:

lms.org.uk/faqs#qa3
Click to expand...
I have no “claim” other than to say that I could see how it could be thought.

That’s all…since you all jumped all over it…

Apparently others have thought it and might have asked the question as well.
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
I have no “claim” other than to say that I could see how it could be thought.

That’s all…since you all jumped all over it…

Apparently others have thought it and might have asked the question as well.
Click to expand...
That thread was intended to be a way to gather ideas about hypothetical questions people who attend the TLM for the first time might have. Yes, people might have that question, but it doesn’t mean that the answer is in the positive. As I showed, the answer is actually in the negative.
 
YoungTradCath said:
That thread was intended to be a way to gather ideas about hypothetical questions people who attend the TLM for the first time might have. Yes, people might have that question, but it doesn’t mean that the answer is in the positive. As I showed, the answer is actually in the negative.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say otherwise…
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
I didn’t say otherwise…
Click to expand...
No, you didn’t. But why would you have said what you said unless you were trying to support the notion in some way? You certainly weren’t refuting it, and I don’t think you were saying it just randomly for no reason, so… yeah.
 
YoungTradCath said:
No, you didn’t. But why would you have said what you said unless you were trying to support the notion in some way? You certainly weren’t refuting it, and I don’t think you were saying it just randomly for no reason, so… yeah.
Click to expand...
Please don’t subscribe motives for me! I was just trying to point out how someone new (or returning) or the average Catholic might ask the same question…
 
Anna_Claire said:
Brendan…
Why do we have to be “careful”? We are not trying to do what the priest does. He is important…we cant do without him…but we are just as important to the liturgy. He cant do without us.
Click to expand...
We’re not required for the Mass to occur. The priest is fully capable of offering Mass without us present.
We are not talking about the TLM…that’s a whole different theology.
Click to expand...
No, it isn’t. The Mass is the Mass, regardless of which form or which Rite.
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
Welcome to real life! Is everything a fight to the death? Can you not see the middle ground or why people have questions?
Click to expand...
It is not a fight to the death, but the theology behind the mass is an extremely important subject, so yes, I do think the record should always and everywhere be set straight, even on an internet forum. I simply don’t understand why, when Brendan said, “I would be very interested to read any Church documents that describe this change in theology. Do you have any references?” you responded, “If it wasn’t thought then why on the ‘been to the TLM’ thread does someone quote in post #5 from the Latin Mass society questions…?”

I don’t understand how that response flows from his post. You aren’t wrong in saying that, but I don’t really see how it makes sense there. That isn’t a real retort to what he is saying, it’s just a vaguely related fact that doesn’t actually answer his question or nullify his sentiment.

I am sorry that I, ahem, attributed your quote as being indicative of your own opinions on the matter, but I just assumed that since you used it, that you did, in fact, agree with it, since generally one does not reply to a question with a statement that is not an answer to that question.
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
I have no “claim” other than to say that I could see how it could be thought.
Click to expand...
But you phrased it as if it was a fact; see your statement below
We are not talking about the TLM…that’s a whole different theology.
Click to expand...
Can you not see the middle ground or why people have questions?
Click to expand...
Your ‘question’ was missing the common grammatical traits of a question. They are generally prefaced by an adverb such as “why, how, where, when” and followed by a ‘?’

Your statement lacked those, so it was reasonable to assume that it was not a question, but a statement of fact.

I also fail to see what the ‘middle ground’ would be. It would that it would be a yes or no question in regared to if the theology of the Mass had changed.
 
*I will compare that to the words of Pope John Paul II

Quote:
Yet active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed, it demands it. Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy. These are experiences of silence and stillness, but they are in their own way profoundly active. In a culture which neither favors nor fosters meditative quiet, the art of interior listening is learned only with difficulty. Here we see how the liturgy, though it must always be properly inculturated, must also be counter-cultural*

That does not mean anyone is being encouraged to attend mass and do nothing but pray to themselves. That makes it a devotion. A Eucharistic liturgy is not a devotion but communal worship. Pray privately at home…or, go to a Tridentine mass. The pope may have said the theology is the same but he is wrong. It is very different…and this thread is not the place to get into all that. I answered the question about FCAP…I stand by what I said…that is what the church teaches.
 
Anna_Claire said:
That does not mean anyone is being encouraged to attend mass and do nothing but pray to themselves. That makes it a devotion. A Eucharistic liturgy is not a devotion but communal worship. Pray privately at home…or, go to a Tridentine mass. The pope may have said the theology is the same but he is wrong. It is very different…and this thread is not the place to get into all that. I answered the question about FCAP…I stand by what I said…that is what the church teaches.
Click to expand...
Are you stating that worship is not possible when one is silent?

If you are claiming that the Pope is wrong on this subject, do you have an supporting documentation? Or are you simply claiming to have a better understainding of Theology than the Pope does?

If so, what are you credentials?, since you clearly expect me to take your claim at face value?

Would you expect me to belive a claim you have on Physics over someone like Stephen Hawking?

You claim seems very similar in magnatude.
 
Anna_Claire said:
*I will compare that to the words of Pope John Paul II

Quote:
Yet active participation does not preclude the active passivity of silence, stillness and listening: indeed, it demands it. Worshippers are not passive, for instance, when listening to the readings or the homily, or following the prayers of the celebrant, and the chants and music of the liturgy. These are experiences of silence and stillness, but they are in their own way profoundly active. In a culture which neither favors nor fosters meditative quiet, the art of interior listening is learned only with difficulty. Here we see how the liturgy, though it must always be properly inculturated, must also be counter-cultural*

That does not mean anyone is being encouraged to attend mass and do nothing but pray to themselves. That makes it a devotion. A Eucharistic liturgy is not a devotion but communal worship. Pray privately at home…**or, go to a Tridentine mass. **The pope may have said the theology is the same but he is wrong. It is very different…and this thread is not the place to get into all that. I answered the question about FCAP…I stand by what I said…that is what the church teaches.
Click to expand...
How is going to an EF Mass NOT communal worship?? FCAP didn’t spring from Vatican II but was a concept before that. FCAP is certainly possible at an EF Mass, ask any kid who was able to follow the Mass in his/her little Missal back in the day. You paid attention to what was happening, which ultimately is what FCAP is all about. If you were lucky enough to be at a dialogue Mass you even got to say the responses, which required FCAP as much as the Ordinary Form does.
 
Brendan said:
But you phrased it as if it was a fact; see your statement below

Your ‘question’ was missing the common grammatical traits of a question. They are generally prefaced by an adverb such as “why, how, where, when” and followed by a ‘?’

Your statement lacked those, so it was reasonable to assume that it was not a question, but a statement of fact.

I also fail to see what the ‘middle ground’ would be. It would that it would be a yes or no question in regared to if the theology of the Mass had changed.
Click to expand...
Wait a minute! That middle quote was NOT mine. Given that fact then you might want to re-respond to me on how I see how there could be some confusion about it.
 
Anna_Claire said:
That does not mean anyone is being encouraged to attend mass and do nothing but pray to themselves. That makes it a devotion. A Eucharistic liturgy is not a devotion but communal worship. Pray privately at home…or, go to a Tridentine mass.
Click to expand...
If anything, attending a Mass said quietly (meaning no microphones) should force one to focus even more as to what’s going on. That means, deeper participation.
 
Brendan."just noticed you attributed one of my quotes to Annabelle

I said…

We are not talking about the TLM…that’s a whole different theology.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top