Full knowledge?

[EverWondering]

What exactly does “full knowledge” entail in terms of determining mortal sin? Do you have to know that a certain act is wrong, and against God’s law AND that it’s grave matter and therefore a mortal sin, to be guilty of committing a mortal sin?

Or if you know that something is wrong but are unaware that it’s considered grave matter, so you do it thinking it’s a venial sin, then for you, in this particular instance, it’s only a venial sin?

Thanks!

 

[thistle]

What exactly does “full knowledge” entail in terms of determining mortal sin? Do you have to know that a certain act is wrong, and against God’s law AND that it’s grave matter and therefore a mortal sin, to be guilty of committing a mortal sin?

Or if you know that something is wrong but are unaware that it’s considered grave matter, so you do it thinking it’s a venial sin, then for you, in this particular instance, it’s only a venial sin?

Thanks!

As long as you know the Church teaches an act is a sin of grave matter then the “full knowledge” condition is satisfied.

 

[JRKH]

What exactly does “full knowledge” entail in terms of determining mortal sin? Do you have to know that a certain act is wrong, and against God’s law AND that it’s grave matter and therefore a mortal sin, to be guilty of committing a mortal sin?

Or if you know that something is wrong but are unaware that it’s considered grave matter, so you do it thinking it’s a venial sin, then for you, in this particular instance, it’s only a venial sin?

Thanks!

If one is not aware that something is grave matter…the three requirements are not fulfilled.

However there should be little room for doubt as to what constitutes “grave matter” since the Catechism is quite clear…
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
Since the ten commandments, as explained in the Catechism, constitute, “grave Matter”, any willful act against these commands of God is a mortal sin.

At least that is how I read the section on Mortal Sin.

Peace
James

 

[twoangels]

What exactly does “full knowledge” entail in terms of determining mortal sin? Do you have to know that a certain act is wrong, and against God’s law AND that it’s grave matter and therefore a mortal sin, to be guilty of committing a mortal sin?

Or if you know that something is wrong but are unaware that it’s considered grave matter, so you do it thinking it’s a venial sin, then for you, in this particular instance, it’s only a venial sin?

Thanks!

Yes, I would say you have to know an action is gravely wrong and do it anyway. However, I do not believe you have to mentally know the action is a “mortal sin.” What do I mean by this? I mean, it is possible to commit a mortal sin without knowing the terms mortal and venial sin or the criteria.

I don’t think obsessing over the criteria is helpful. It tends to lead us in a direction of trying to make ourselves naturally worthy of God, as if we’re simplying paying our dues to get into Heaven. This is not the case.

“Give me all of you!!! I don’t want so much of your time, so much of your talents and money, and so much of your work. I want YOU!!! ALL OF YOU!! I have not come to torment or frustrate the natural man or woman, but to KILL IT! No half measures will do. I don’t want to only prune a branch here and a branch there; rather I want the whole tree out! Hand it over to me, the whole outfit, all of your desires, all of your wants and wishes and dreams. Turn them ALL over to me, give yourself to me and I will make of you a new self—in my image. Give me yourself and in exchange I will give you Myself. My will, shall become your will. My heart, shall become your heart.”

― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Concerning ourselves with mortal vs venial sin categories is much like the individual who obsesses about “how far is too far” because he wants to push the boundaries and take whatever he can have.

A person focused on giving themselves entirely to Christ, I don’t believe is at grave risk of committing mortal sin. That person may struggle with habitual sins that if not habitual would be mortal, but that type of person is not willfully violating their conscience when they know an act is gravely sinful. That person is rather struggling day by day to hand themselves completely over to God and seeking the sacraments for the grace to continue on the journey. Regular confession (as opposed to a confession after long absense) is more about continuing to bring your weaknesses before God and to find strength in God. It is acknowledging you cannot do this on your own.

 

[DexUK]

Regarding not knowing or understanding the Church’s rules and regulations, there have to be cases where something is a mortal sin because it defies human reason for it not to be.

I.e. if a Catholic who has never heard of ‘mortal sin’ (albeit a very badly catechised one!) went off and wilfully murdered someone with malice of forethought, he would be in mortal sin, since it is within the ability of human reason to know that this is a Very Bad Thing.

I would therefore say that some things are simply self-evidently mortal and grave, without the need for particular catechesis.

 

[twoangels]

If one is not aware that something is grave matter…the three requirements are not fulfilled.

However there should be little room for doubt as to what constitutes “grave matter” since the Catechism is quite clear…
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
Since the ten commandments, as explained in the Catechism, constitute, “grave Matter”, any willful act against these commands of God is a mortal sin.

At least that is how I read the section on Mortal Sin.

Peace
James

Wow, that Catechism quote just refuted a claim I’ve seen elsewhere on this forum. The Catechism acknowledges that the gravity of a sin is not an either/or. “murder is graver than theft.” etc.

 

[Bookcat]

If one is not aware that something is grave matter…the three requirements are not fulfilled.

However there should be little room for doubt as to what constitutes “grave matter” since the Catechism is quite clear…
1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.
Since the ten commandments, as explained in the Catechism, constitute, “grave Matter”, any willful act against these commands of God is a mortal sin.

At least that is how I read the section on Mortal Sin.

Peace
James

To clarify --the above contains some miswording – it would NOT be actually the case that "any willful act against these commands…constitute “grave matter”. But rather that the Ten Commandments – reveal things of grave matter.

Why? For many of them do not only pertain to “grave matter” but also venial matters. They “admit to parvity of matter” that is there are venial matters too there in many cases.

2073 Obedience to the Commandments also implies obligations in matter which is, in itself, light. Thus abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment, but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2.htm

 

[Bookcat]

Wow, that Catechism quote just refuted a claim I’ve seen elsewhere on this forum. The Catechism acknowledges that the gravity of a sin is not an either/or. “murder is graver than theft.” etc.

If one commits a sin – one either commits a venial sin or mortal sin.

Within those two kinds of sin there can be yes worse ones.

To murder someone is a worse mortal sin than the mortal sin of theft. And even within the very act (two different murders) --one act can be “worse than another”.

 

[Bookcat]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#III

 

[wanabesaint]

WE thought it was seen as if you committed sin against one of the Ten Commandments you had broken them all, was the principle realization.

Charity is what sin erases, that is lost in sinning.
Sin destoys the Charity within which eternal beatitude is possible, and those sins are the seven deadly sins which a person really has to come to know well and fully to comprehend what sin is, at the same time to come to comprehend How we are specificly to live and to not be sinfull we have to know the beatitudes and for them to be in our heart as the beating existence of our heart and soul…

Not forgiving others, sinning against others, teaching sin to others by our example, our defiance to others, fault finding of others, all erase our charity towards others, the last seven commadments. the first three, against God, erase our charity, love of God…

the seven deadly sins kill our charity of heart, no charity of heart, no goey to Heaven to be with God.

 

[Bookcat]

the seven deadly sins kill our charity of heart, no charity of heart, no goey to Heaven to be with God.

Tis a misnomer of sorts – the “seven deadly sins” also contain venial matters often-- and of course there are many many many mortal sins. The better term is the “seven capital sins” for they are the head (capitus) of so many other sins in our lives…

 

[StMikhael]

As long as you know the Church teaches an act is a sin of grave matter then the “full knowledge” condition is satisfied.

Respectively disagree.

Grav Matter - This is the least subjective of the three criteria but non-the-less it is somewhat subjective.

Full Knowledge - This, as well as the third criteria is not as simple as the poster articulates. The “full knowledge” in order to be full knowledge must be accompanied with the knowledge and belief in the authority of the church. This is where “full knowledge”, becomes cloudy. I will use an example in an attempt to illustrate. Most Catholics are aware that the Chruch teaches that missing Mass (assuming for not good reason) is a sin of grave matter in the eyes of the Church. If the Catholic who does not go to Mass (who makes up the majority based on most data) every Sunday were questioned on this they would likely state that although they know that the Church teaches it is a sin of grave matter, they would debate the concept that the Church has the authority to take such a stand. Typically, I find, they are lacking in the knowledge of the teaching on Church Authority. If they believe the Church can be wrong in asserting that the sin is of grave matter, yet fully aware the Church teaches the sin is of grave matter, then the knowledge is compromised.

If one were to dispute my above idea, then one would have to believe that the individual described above, fully aware the Church teaches that missing Mass is a sin of grave matter, and fulll aware that God has given the authority for the Church to make such a claim, is comfortable KNOWING that are putting thier souls in grave danger.

In summary, ask the non-Mass going Catholic if he is aware that the Chruch teaches that his missing Mass is grave sin. If he answers in the affirmative, follow it up by asking him if he believes he is putting his soul in grave danger. Most often he will dispute the 2nd question.

This is where things get messy. This is where IMHO the Church has failed the laity. The Church is not doing the laity a favor by having it “on the books” that missing Mass (just as an example) is a grave sin, yet never, in any way, outwardly teaches this along with teaching the more difficult subject of Church Authority.

A bad analogy (I only use it to help illustrate thepoint, the analogy falls woefully short, I am aware). Assume a town passed a law that j-walking was now punishable by death. They put this law on the books but never advertised this in a way that reached most of the town folk. The town folk probably already knows that j-walking is against the law but they also know it is not taken seriously and seldom if ever enforced. I’d argue if one were arrested for this crime, they have a good defense. Again, poor analogy just trying to drive home my train of thought.

 

[Bookcat]

See below:

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a3.htm#II

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

---

1790… it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

 

[Bookcat]

As to mortal sin and venial sin

Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

1. When does one commit a mortal sin?

1855-1861
1874

One commits a mortal sin when there are simultaneously present: grave matter, full knowledge, and deliberate consent. This sin destroys charity in us, deprives us of sanctifying grace, and, if unrepented, leads us to the eternal death of hell. It can be forgiven in the ordinary way by means of the sacraments of Baptism and of Penance or Reconciliation.

1. When does one commit a venial sin?

1862-1864
1875

One commits a venial sin, which is essentially different from a mortal sin, when the matter involved is less serious or, even if it is grave, when full knowledge or complete consent are absent. Venial sin does not break the covenant with God but it weakens charity and manifests a disordered affection for created goods. It impedes the progress of a soul in the exercise of the virtues and in the practice of moral good. It merits temporal punishment which purifies.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

Catechism:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: "Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother."132 The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#IV

 

[StMikhael]

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a3.htm#II

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

---

1790… it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

Very good Bookcat, thank you. Very consice and very all encompassing in addressing my post.

However it begs a followup question of which I most certainly do not have an answer. Common day theologians (i.e. Father Barron / Ralph Martin) in fact seem to be in dispute of the answer to my question. Based on the CCC citations, what does this say for the souls of the estimated 80+% (I believe the number to be ultra-conservative). This is where the Church leaves us high and dry. The math becomes easy. And if it is as clear as your illustration would lead us to believe, how do we reconcile this with “Wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Lord”? How can there be joy when the dictates reflect that 8-9 out of ten of our brothers and sisters are in grave danger of eternal damnation without a “special pardon” from our Lord?

I have little hope in ever getting a satisfactory answer to this. Perhaps this is what tormented Martin Luther.

 

[Bookcat]

Very good Bookcat, thank you. Very consice and very all encompassing in addressing my post.

However it begs a followup question of which I most certainly do not have an answer. Common day theologians (i.e. Father Barron / Ralph Martin) in fact seem to be in dispute of the answer to my question. Based on the CCC citations, what does this say for the souls of the estimated 80+% (I believe the number to be ultra-conservative). This is where the Church leaves us high and dry. The math becomes easy. And if it is as clear as your illustration would lead us to believe, how do we reconcile this with “Wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Lord”? How can there be joy when the dictates reflect that 8-9 out of ten of our brothers and sisters are in grave danger of eternal damnation without a “special pardon” from our Lord?

I have little hope in ever getting a satisfactory answer to this. Perhaps this is what tormented Martin Luther.

(the Church does not leave us “high and dry” …it is the very nature of the Church to proclaim the Gospel …to bring Christ to the world. Yes as persons etc we can fall short --starting with my own sins --but the Church does not “leave us high and dry” – rather the water flows constantly…)

We do not have the math per se

God is the one who knows each of us and what takes place interiorly …

And his grace can reach others in ways we do not know…

Our task is to proclaim the Gospel --to proclaim Jesus of Nazareth.

To propose him --for in him is* true life*.

He indeed is our Hope.

(and to pray, even do penance…)

 

[StMikhael]

We do not have the math per se

God is the one who knows each of us and what takes place interiorly …

Our task is to proclaim the Gospel --to proclaim Jesus of Nazareth.

To propose him --for in him is* true life*.

He indeed is our Hope.

(and to pray, even do penance…)

(the Church does not leave us “high and dry”)

Thank you for your kind and calm response. Truly appreciated.

By “High and dry” I mean that when one reads the CCC and interprets it literally, which I believe is the way it is intended to be read, it reads somewhat unambiguous and quite clear. One can quickly and relatively easily extract the points you were attempting to make by referring to them.

However when one pushes the matter(s) to thier ultimate conclusion, one reads from it certain near assurances. When one is further pressed one resorts to statements such as “Only God knows the heart”. Which is most certainly true but it is aside of the matter. It dodges the matter at hand. Yes indeed only God knows the heart. But the issue at hand is more to the effect of, virtually all Catholics die in violation (save those that repent or receive the Sacrement of the Sick on thier death bed) of what the CCC citations are outlining in terms of grave matter and mortal sin.

This is where the math becomes easy.

 

[Bookcat]

Thank you for your kind and calm response. Truly appreciated.

By “High and dry” I mean that when one reads the CCC and interprets it literally, which I believe is the way it is intended to be read, it reads somewhat unambiguous and quite clear. One can quickly and relatively easily extract the points you were attempting to make by referring to them.

However when one pushes the matter(s) to thier ultimate conclusion, one reads from it certain near assurances. When one is further pressed one resorts to statements such as “Only God knows the heart”. Which is most certainly true but it is aside of the matter. It dodges the matter at hand. Yes indeed only God knows the heart. But the issue at hand is more to the effect of, virtually all Catholics die in violation (save those that repent or receive the Sacrement of the Sick on thier death bed) of what the CCC citations are outlining in terms of grave matter and mortal sin.

This is where the math becomes easy.

The math does not become “easy” --for the figures are unseen by our eyes…

Such would not be a dodge but simply truth --part of the truth (the other aspect is yes one can die in mortal sin…such is also a reality). God is not bound by the Sacraments and he can know the person and give grace in ways we do not know. AND I think it would be mis-statement to say that “virtually all Catholics die in violation” of that which is grave matter (we are not privy to the angelic poll that is taken ) And even those who do --we do not know what their particular culpability is – and it remains possible for grace at the closing moments of life (but we are not to fall into presumption here). We must take it all as a “whole”.

And of course proclaim the Gospel…

(and exercise “fraternal correction” vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html)

 

[JRKH]

To clarify --the above contains some miswording – it would NOT be actually the case that "any willful act against these commands…constitute “grave matter”. But rather that the Ten Commandments – reveal things of grave matter.

Why? For many of them do not only pertain to “grave matter” but also venial matters. They “admit to parvity of matter” that is there are venial matters too there in many cases.

2073 Obedience to the Commandments also implies obligations in matter which is, in itself, light. Thus abusive language is forbidden by the fifth commandment, but would be a grave offense only as a result of circumstances or the offender’s intention.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2.htm

BC - thanks for that cross reference…I will look into that. At first glace it sounds contradictory to what is written in the section defining mortal sin for there it says that a sin might be “more or less grave”, but it does not say that “less grave” can reach a point of being not grave at all.

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

““Caritas Christi urget nos” (2 Cor 5:14): it is the love of Christ that fills our hearts and impels us to evangelize. Today as in the past, he sends us through the highways of the world to proclaim his Gospel to all the peoples of the earth (cf. Mt 28:19). Through his love, Jesus Christ attracts to himself the people of every generation: in every age he convokes the Church, entrusting her with the proclamation of the Gospel by a mandate that is ever new.”

Pope Benedict XVI Porta Fidei