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Cat -

I appreciate your patience with me on this - but I’m afraid that - based on the way the catechism is constructed and the subject of sin (mortal venial) is approached…the matter (no pun intended) remains clear as mud.

My own difficulty - and the difficulties that I see regularly expressed here by others - leaves me convinced that this area of the catechism could have been better constructed by taking a different approach.

Peace
James
 
Cat -

I appreciate your patience with me on this - but I’m afraid that - based on the way the catechism is constructed and the subject of sin (mortal venial) is approached…the matter (no pun intended) remains clear as mud.

My own difficulty - and the difficulties that I see regularly expressed here by others - leaves me convinced that this area of the catechism could have been better constructed by taking a different approach.

Peace
James
More time…and you can see it. You have just got a misreading that has been hard for you to shake.

Remember too while the Catechism is a gift for the entire Church

– when it was written – it was “primarily addressed” to *Bishops *

(who one can say have a long background in Theology)

“as a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine and, in particular, for formulating local catechisms”
 
PS: I do not want to leave the impression that any of the Ten Commandments per se involve only venial (light) matter. There are many ways of “grave matter” in each.
 
More time…and you can see it. You have just got a misreading that has been hard for you to shake.
Not sure about the “more time” helping…There is sort of a (oh what’s the word I want)…Distance/difference in how I approach spirituality and sin (More mystical) and how the Catechism approaches these matters.

As an example…the Catechism says that Mortal sin kills charity…but I view it more from the viewpoint that charity dies before one commits a mortal sin. That all mortal sin stems from a rejection of God - a rejection of the Law of Love.
Even if such rejection is only momentary…“Knowledge and consent” make the rejection very real…and then the weight of the matter (by whatever descriptor) becomes less important in mortality…the fact that I did it on purpose would become the determining factor in mortality of the sin.
This is a different approach than what I often see here…and definitely different than what I read in the catechism…I mean - I agree with what the Catechism says…just not so much with how it says it if you know what I mean.
Remember too while the Catechism is a gift for the entire Church
– when it was written – it was “primarily addressed” to Bishops
(who one can say have a background in Theology)
“as a sure and authentic reference text for teaching Catholic doctrine and, in particular, for formulating local catechisms”
Yes - this is a very good point.
I wonder how many “local catechism’s” have been formulated?

Peace
James
 
Yes - this is a very good point.
I wonder how many “local catechism’s” have been formulated?

Peace
James
So CCC was such a big hit that many use it directly (as is of course good) -and many have made in addition local Catechisms like the one in the USA

And now there is the wonderful Compendium too 🙂
 
N
As an example…the Catechism says that Mortal sin kills charity…but I view it more from the viewpoint that charity dies before one commits a mortal sin. That all mortal sin stems from a rejection of God - a rejection of the Law of Love.
Even if such rejection is only momentary…“Knowledge and consent” make the rejection very real…and then the weight of the matter (by whatever descriptor) becomes less important in mortality…the fact that I did it on purpose would become the determining factor in mortality of the sin.
This is a different approach than what I often see here…and definitely different than what I read in the catechism…I mean - I agree with what the Catechism says…just not so much with how it says it if you know what I mean.
Charity dies with the first mortal sin of a person who is in a state of grace.

More can take place…and often do. But a person is either “living” or “dead” and such “death” begins with the first mortal sin (which can take place in a purely interior fashion).

And of course such a choice can be “for any reason” and need not intend to go against the love of God per se (not that you said such).

Such is true in Spiritual theology (ascetical and mystical theology )–in the Spiritual life.

All goes together.

One will find the important distinctions in Spiritual Theology of “mortal sin” and “venial sin” as well as of “fully deliberate venial sin” which is worse for ones spiritual life than “venial sins of weakness” and “semi-deliberate venial sin” …
 
Another example:

A person commits the sin (contrary to the 8th commandment) of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them.

Now if I say some light matter kind of thing – like I disclose without the above reason --that Sam had too many cookies during lunch.

That is rather different than if I were to without the above reason that Sam is cheating on his wife.

One can be said to be matter for venial sin and the other for mortal sin.

But both acts are contrary the 8th Commandment of the Ten Commandments.
 
Charity dies with the first mortal sin of a person who is in a state of grace.

More can take place…and often do. But a person is either “living” or “dead” and such “death” begins with the first mortal sin (which can take place in a purely interior fashion.
YES - that first mortal sin can be (and I believe always is) a sin of thought - of intent. This is in accord with the “full knowledge and consent” aspects. One decides to sin and thereby kill charity before any external act is committed.

**And of course such a choice can be “for any reason” and need not intend to go against the love of God per se (not that you said such). **
Absolutely.
Such is true in Spiritual theology (ascetical and mystical theology )–in the Spiritual life.
All goes together.
One will find the important distinctions in Spiritual Theology of “mortal sin” and “venial sin” as well as of “fully deliberate venial sin” which is worse for ones spiritual life than “venial sins of weakness” and “semi-deliberate venial sin” …
Very true…I did not mean to imply that the mystics did not ignore the gravity of various sins…But I think that the thing I see more clearly in the mystical view is this “all goes together” aspect.

To me the questions to ask in any potential “sin” situation are things like - would God want me to do this? Will this promote the Kingdom? Is this in accord with the Law of Love?

If we work on these questions the rest falls more easily into place.

Peace
James
 
YES - that first mortal sin can be (and I believe always is) a sin of thought - of intent. This is in accord with the “full knowledge and consent” aspects. One decides to sin and thereby kill charity before any external act is committed.
Yes.

And note too CCC:

1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.
 
Another example:

A person commits the sin (contrary to the 8th commandment) of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them.

Now if I say some light matter kind of thing – like I disclose without the above reason --that Sam had too many cookies during lunch.

That is rather different than if I were to disclose without the above reason that Sam is cheating on his wife.

One can be said to be matter for venial sin and the other for mortal sin.

But both acts are contrary the 8th Commandment of the Ten Commandments.
 
Another example:

A person commits the sin (contrary to the 8th commandment) of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them.

Now if I say some light matter kind of thing – like I disclose without the above reason --that Sam had too many cookies during lunch.

That is rather different than if I were to disclose without the above reason that Sam is cheating on his wife.

One can be said to be matter for venial sin and the other for mortal sin.

But both acts are contrary the 8th Commandment of the Ten Commandments.
In keeping with my view that the the knowledge and consent aspects effect the gravity (or the seriousness) of the matter I would have to wait a bit to make this determination. What were the circumstances and reason one chose to act this way.
Was it just non-thinking office “banter” or do I truly dislike Sam and therefore tend to deliberately think and say things to hurt him - regardless of what it is.
For as you say in the post above this one…quoting Jesus - evil come from the heart…

Now - you may naturally respond that - such intended and protracted malice would fall under a different sin…and I would agree. In fact - I would go so far as to say that there is only one real mortal sin…the one that we agree is the initial one - willful rejection of God ----- and I further suggest that it is THIS sin that Jesus refers to as the unpardonable sin.
Because just as the initial killing of Charity comes from the interior decision to reject God -that is, to act contrary to Love - the initial rekindling of that Charity comes from the turning back to God and repenting - first our rejection of God - and second repenting any evil thoughts or actions we committed during that time of rejection.

Peace
James
 
In keeping with my view that the the knowledge and consent aspects effect the gravity (or the seriousness) of the matter I would have to wait a bit to make this determination. What were the circumstances and reason one chose to act this way.
Was it just non-thinking office “banter” or do I truly dislike Sam and therefore tend to deliberately think and say things to hurt him - regardless of what it is.
For as you say in the post above this one…quoting Jesus - evil come from the heart…

Now - you may naturally respond that - such intended and protracted malice would fall under a different sin…and I would agree. In fact - I would go so far as to say that there is only one real mortal sin…the one that we agree is the initial one - willful rejection of God ----- and I further suggest that it is THIS sin that Jesus refers to as the unpardonable sin.
Because just as the initial killing of Charity comes from the interior decision to reject God -that is, to act contrary to Love - the initial rekindling of that Charity comes from the turning back to God and repenting - first our rejection of God - and second repenting any evil thoughts or actions we committed during that time of rejection.

Peace
James
The “willful rejection of God” is not the “unpardonable sin”. Why? for one may still repent and be “pardoned” – however to “refuse” the mercy of God and thus go to ones grave in mortal sin --that is not pardonable.

But to say that such is the only “real mortal sin” would be incorrect. One either is “in life” of grace here in this world or not.

The Church means what we have been discussing when she uses the term “mortal sin”.

Circumstance and intention are yes involved -see the post just prior to yours here.

(I will note in passing (not that you brought it up) that while such can bring about sin even with a matter that is otherwise “good” – etc they cannot make something that is intrinsically evil into a good.)

The " initial killing of Charity comes from the interior decision to reject God" or even if such an interior decision is not present --but the grave matter is chosen with the needful knowledge and complete consent --for any reason.

And in terms of “repentance”…

The initial rekindling of that Charity…may or may not happen right away with repentance.

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

(note venial sins can be forgiven in many other ways…contrition…prayer etc etc)

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#VII

In ANY case for mortal sin there needs to be grave matter (even which may be involve what would otherwise have been venial matter --such as telling something that was a “little lie” with the intent of grave harm) full knowledge and deliberate consent.

And my examples there presumed ordinary events not with circumstances or intentions otherwise.
 
The “willful rejection of God” is not the “unpardonable sin”. Why? for one may still repent and be “pardoned” – however to “refuse” the mercy of God and thus go to ones grave in mortal sin --that is not pardonable.
This issue gets trick for if one “blasphemes the Holy Spirit” and then repents…can they be forgiven? If so then is there an “unpardonable sin”? 🤷
That said - I agree that if one repents - even at the last - they can be forgiven. This rejection of God and His Lordship and His mercy is exactly what I was talking about.
But to say that such is the only “real mortal sin” would be incorrect. One either is “in life” of grace here in this world or not.
Yes - and largely this depends upon whether one accepts God or rejects Him. So this acceptance or rejection is at the core of whether one is “in life” or not…
That is my point.

As I say - I have a somewhat different approach to the matter…Not that I am in any way in opposition to the Church…Just in the approach used…

That said…This thread has gotten WAAAY off topic so I’ll stop for now.

Peace
James
 
This issue gets trick for if one “blasphemes the Holy Spirit” and then repents…can they be forgiven? If so then is there an “unpardonable sin”?
CCC

982 There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest. Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.

1864 “Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
 
TBut to say that such is the only “real mortal sin” would be incorrect. One either is “in life” of grace here in this world or not.

Yes - and largely this depends upon whether one accepts God or rejects Him. So this acceptance or rejection is at the core of whether one is “in life” or not…
That is my point.
If one has committed a mortal sin – one is NOT-- “in life”–

Not until restored by God to being “in life”.

One can commit a mortal sin --without any intent to reject God – and thus one would be in a state of “death” and thus not in “life”
 
“…mortal sin exists …when a person knowingly and willingly, for whatever reason, chooses something gravely disordered.”

~Blessed Pope John Paul II Veritatis Spendor

(he means of course with full knowledge and deliberate consent)
 
God is not bound by the Sacraments and he can know the person and give grace in ways we do not know.
Bookcat,

I appreciate your previous comments on this and agree whole heartily but I think this comment is a cop out. Sorry! I have heard too many people say that God is not bound by the Sacraments (which I agree with if properly used), as if this means that He can say one thing to us via His Church, and then turn around later and say, “oh, I know what I said through My Bride, but I was not quite honest with Her”. Not revealing all divine knowledge to us is quite different than saying something is divinely revealed and then abrogated later.

My point is that God is bound by His word since the Word is God and became flesh. God’s divine Word is immutable and unchanging. God is Truth. God has given us clear infallible teachings on the 10 Commandments and He can’t go back on them. This would render Him like all others, NOT GOD.

Can you please respond to my comments and help me understand better what you are saying?

Thanks
 
Wow, that Catechism quote just refuted a claim I’ve seen elsewhere on this forum. The Catechism acknowledges that the gravity of a sin is not an either/or. “murder is graver than theft.” etc.
However, even if murder is a sin graver than theft, the consequence is the same. If you know murder is a sin of grave matter and another person knows theft is a sin of grave matter and you both go ahead and commit the respective acts then you both have committed a mortal sin which means if you both die unrepentant then both of you would go to Hell.
The consequence of dying in a state of mortal sin is going to Hell. It does not matter what type of mortal sin you have committed.
 
Bookcat,

I appreciate your previous comments on this and agree whole heartily but I think this comment is a cop out. Sorry! I have heard too many people say that God is not bound by the Sacraments (which I agree with if properly used), as if this means that He can say one thing to us via His Church, and then turn around later and say, “oh, I know what I said through My Bride, but I was not quite honest with Her”. Not revealing all divine knowledge to us is quite different than saying something is divinely revealed and then abrogated later.

My point is that God is bound by His word since the Word is God and became flesh. God’s divine Word is immutable and unchanging. God is Truth. God has given us clear infallible teachings on the 10 Commandments and He can’t go back on them. This would render Him like all others, NOT GOD.

Can you please respond to my comments and help me understand better what you are saying?

Thanks
Such is not the meaning.

The theological phrase that “God is not bound by the Sacraments” means that while we are so bound --he is not.

The Sacraments are normative for us – we are to be Baptized…etc

But HE can with his grace – work “outside” the Sacraments.

And such can happen in ways we do not know.
 
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