Full knowledge?

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Bookcat said:
Such is not the meaning.

The theological phrase that “God is not bound by the Sacraments” means that while we are so bound --he is not.

The Sacraments are normative for us – we are to be Baptized…etc

But HE can with his grace – work “outside” the Sacraments.

And such can happen in ways we do not know.
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Yes, I understand that, but are you also saying that God can say one thing to us and then do something else contrary to His word?

For example…

God says, via His Church, that…
  • we are obliged to keep the Lord’s Day and to make it holy,
  • all 10 Commandments are grave matter,
  • without dispensation, a violation of the 3rd Commandment is a mortal sin if done deliberately and with full knowledge,
  • we are culpable when ignorance is not invincible and self imposed,
  • mortal sin destroys charity in the heart and removes us from the grace of God,
  • all those that die in a state of mortal sin go to hell.
Now, StMikhael’s concern (I gather) is that knowing this, and knowing your position on it, then what does that say of those that die without repenting of this sin. His position or comment you responded to eliminated anyone that died in God’s grace, meaning all those that repent before dying, even if it was a few seconds prior and no one on earth noticed it.

Knowing what the Church teaches, there seems to be only one answer for StMikhael’s concern about those that die without repenting of this mortal sin and it is not…

“God is not bound by the Sacraments and he can know the person and give grace in ways we do not know.”

…because God cannot go against an infallible teaching He has already given us. As Christians, we do not believe in the abrogation of Divine Law.

And even if that is not the only answer, your’s surely isn’t one of them.

Again, I agree with you about God working outside His Sacraments and not being bound by them; I totally agree. But this is not the situation described. Here, we are dealing with a definitive teaching from God that binds Him to His word.

Maybe I have misunderstood your position?
 
shocktrooper said:
Yes, I understand that, but are you also saying that God can say one thing to us and then do something else contrary to His word?
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WE are bound by the Sacraments. God is not.

Thus he can in ways known only to him – even in the last moments of the persons life – offer particular grace to soul. So that the soul does not die in mortal sin…but living in Christ.

Such is not something “within our vision” as it where – but is possible.

One should not presume that such will be the case of course …indeed we are to *live the Sacraments *–be baptized…repent etc and go to Confession.

(Note the Ten commandments involve both grave matter and venial (light) matter)
 
Bookcat said:
WE are bound by the Sacraments. God is not.

Thus he can in ways known only to him – even in the last moments of the persons life – offer particular grace to soul. So that the soul does not die in mortal sin…but living in Christ.

One should not presume that such will be the case of course …indeed we are to *live the Sacraments *–be baptized…repent etc and go to Confession.

(Note the Ten commandments involve both grave matter and venial (light) matter)
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So we agree then to the below…
  • God can in ways known only to him – even in the last moments of the persons life – offer particular grace to soul. So that the soul does not die in mortal sin…but living in Christ.
  • if one dies in the state of mortal sin due to the violation of the 3rd Commandment, they go to hell.
Am I correct in thinking we are in agreement?

Thanks.
 
shocktrooper said:
So we agree then to the below…
  • God can in ways known only to him – even in the last moments of the persons life – offer particular grace to soul. So that the soul does not die in mortal sin…but living in Christ.
  • if one dies in the state of mortal sin due to the violation of the 3rd Commandment, they go to hell.
Am I correct in thinking we are in agreement?

Thanks.
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If a person dies in a state of mortal sin – of any sort-- they have chosen hell.

God of course is the final judge as to if they committed mortal sin.
 
shocktrooper said:
Yes, I understand that, but are you also saying that God can say one thing to us and then do something else contrary to His word?

For example…

God says, via His Church, that…
  • we are obliged to keep the Lord’s Day and to make it holy,
  • all 10 Commandments are grave matter,
  • without dispensation, a violation of the 3rd Commandment is a mortal sin if done deliberately and with full knowledge,
  • we are culpable when ignorance is not invincible and self imposed,
  • mortal sin destroys charity in the heart and removes us from the grace of God,
  • all those that die in a state of mortal sin go to hell.
Now, StMikhael’s concern (I gather) is that knowing this, and knowing your position on it, then what does that say of those that die without repenting of this sin. His position or comment you responded to eliminated anyone that died in God’s grace, meaning all those that repent before dying, even if it was a few seconds prior and no one on earth noticed it.

Knowing what the Church teaches, there seems to be only one answer for StMikhael’s concern about those that die without repenting of this mortal sin and it is not…

“God is not bound by the Sacraments and he can know the person and give grace in ways we do not know.”

…because God cannot go against an infallible teaching He has already given us. As Christians, we do not believe in the abrogation of Divine Law.

And even if that is not the only answer, your’s surely isn’t one of them.

Again, I agree with you about God working outside His Sacraments and not being bound by them; I totally agree. But this is not the situation described. Here, we are dealing with a definitive teaching from God that binds Him to His word.

Maybe I have misunderstood your position?
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Allow me to take a stab at this.

First, we will never get a satisfactory answer to this dilemma. I doubt one exists. If it does it has escaped me for the past 10 or so years since I reverted back to the Catholic faith. Having family and friends who fall into this catagory (guilty of sins of grave matter…i.e. missing mass, contraception etc etc) it is of great concern to me. I have trouble understanding how it is not of greater concern to others.

I stick by my estimate that greater than 90% of Catholics fall into this spectral bin. It’s easy to make this assumption. Statistics on how many Catholics go to Mass regularily are easy to come by. Of the number that do, the number left, that further go to regular confession and obey all other Catholic teaching further reduces the number. I would prospse we are now approaching low single digits.

All you will get is “special pardon” answers. Or “special, upon the moment of death, chances to repent” answers. Which may in fact tbe the answer, I do not know of course. I don’t dispute the answers, they are just not very satisfying.

I was not kidding when I said that perhaps this played heavily into Martin Luthers rebelion. The numbers do not add up.

Let’s look at a possible other mitigating factor. Let’s discuss the 90+%. The CCC was cited to suggest that invincible ignorance probably does not apply to most. They are to follow thier hearts and reseach, or search out, what thier responsibilitie to God is in this regard.

Perhaps then this brings us to the 3rd criteria for mortal sin. Why do so few attempt to learn more about thier faith? We live in world, now, which is void of God. The City of the World has largely won the battle against The City of God especially in the last few decades. So perhaps, these 90+%, or a portion of them, are not committing these sins with “Full Consent” (the 3rd criteria). They are aware of the Gosple story, yes. However, to many it is just that, a story. If they live in a world who ignores God; if they live in a world where they were not properly cathecised; if they live in a world that discourages God; if they live in a world that suggests God is a myth that only desperate people and fools believe, then are they Fully Consenting to committing an act that they truly believe is offensive to God (my understanding of the definition of sin)?

Just a thought. Perhaps responsibility is mitigated. Perhaps this needs a thread of it’s own. Our Catholic faith is not even in agreement on even a rough estimate to percentages off thise who go to heavena nd those whoo go to hell. We run the entire spectrum from virtually zero in hell to “most” as Augustine and many others believe. This only adds fuel to the fire of the matter at large.

I often wonder why this matter is not often addressed more head on by popular apologists. I suppose because they themselves do not know how to address the issue.
 
StMikhael said:
All you will get is “special pardon” answers. Or “special, upon the moment of death, chances to repent” answers. Which may in fact tbe the answer, I do not know of course. I don’t dispute the answers, they are just not very satisfying.

I was not kidding when I said that perhaps this played heavily into Martin Luthers rebelion. The numbers do not add up.

Let’s look at a possible other mitigating factor. Let’s discuss the 90+%. The CCC was cited to suggest that invincible ignorance probably does not apply to most. They are to follow thier hearts and reseach, or search out, what thier responsibilitie to God is in this regard.

…
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I share your concern which is why I was looking for a clear answer from BookCat, who I look to for sound advice.

I have read enough writings of saints that state that a person who is obstinate in sin most of their life will not be changed at death. This is called "hardness of heart’.

This should be a great concern for the Church, yet you hear little about it from those seeking to save souls, at least in my local. It seems like they truly believe there is some “catch all” clause at the end of death.
 
One reason for the “New Evangelization”

and indeed for the special “Year of Faith” we are in now…
 
Bookcat said:
One reason for the “New Evangelization”

and indeed for the special “Year of Faith” we are in now…
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This is true, but how watered down will it get once it is filtered through the USCCB and other local US church offices. I guess we will see if the penance line starts to get longer.
 
(humm…would not put things that way…(various places and persons will vary and there are differing pastoral situations) in any case they wonderfully make available the Documents of the Pope and point people to the Year of Faith site etc.)

I will add that we just had the latest Synod of Bishops on the New Evangelization.

And I can not wait until the new Encyclical from Pope Benedict XVI on Faith is released!
 
Why do catholics follow a differant set of commandments? How do I explain the fact that the catholic commandment 2 and 10 are not the same as in the bible?

Is it due to our use of idols, sanits, and relics? I am of Mexican heritage and I have gone to many latino churches where the Virgin of Gudalupe is revered more than Christ. How can that be? Scripture states that there is but one God, and one mediator, Jesus Christ, period, 1 Tim 2:5. Scripture also states that, I am the way the truth and the light, no one can come to the father except through me, John 14:6.

I have read the ten commandments many times and not praying to idols is certainly there.

Any comments - Bob
 
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