Fundamentalism and Atheism

[jericho777]

So was Paul still writing Scripture when he told Timothy that the Church was the pillar and bulwark of truth? Did Jesus really mean it when he gave to the Apostles the ability to absolve sin? Was Jesus just kidding around when he changed Simon’s name to Peter, and gave him PERSONALLY the power to bind and loose? Here we are seeing a problem with Fundametalism. They only accept the Scriptures they LIKE, and convenioently ignore the rest.

Greetings CW,

Paul was telling Timothy All SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness not “the Church”. There is no mention of Church there or what “the Church” says. You keep changing scripture by adding words for your own purposes. Scripture can not change like nor will ever change. Unlike all that are born in Adam.

Are you speaking of Mt 18 15-20? “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bee loosed in heaven.

19“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”

This is addressed not only to the apostles but all believers to come. Why would the apostles have to take someone before the congregation to change their ways if they really had the final authority you claim?

So there have to be two or three apostles gathered together for Jesus to be there?

Taking text out of context is a dangerous practice and leads to error.

 

[CWBetts]

Greetings CW,

Paul was telling Timothy All SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness not “the Church”. There is no mention of Church there or what “the Church” says. You keep changing scripture by adding words for your own purposes. Scripture can not change like nor will ever change. Unlike all that are born in Adam.

Are you speaking of Mt 18 15-20? “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bee loosed in heaven.

19“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”

This is addressed not only to the apostles but all believers to come. Why would the apostles have to take someone before the congregation to change their ways if they really had the final authority you claim?

So there have to be two or three apostles gathered together for Jesus to be there?

Taking text out of context is a dangerous practice and leads to error.

Absolution of sin- John 20:23, he was addressing the 11 (the ordained priesthood) ONLY.
Binding and Loosing: Matthew 16:18-19
The Church as pillar of Truth: 1 Timothy 3:15

I am not adding anything. You are ignoring Truth

 

[AntiTheist]

A student should be able to pray OUT LOUD, mahe a Sign of the Cross or whatever. Or do you also wish to strip Christians of freedom of speech as well as the free exercise clause,

Students can pray out loud, make the sign of the cross, read from a prayer book, do a rain dance, stand on their heads, or anything else they want on their own as long as they are not disturbing other students or classes.

We’re not talking about prayers here. We’re talking about official, instructor-led prayers that constitute the government supporting prayer over not praying. Prayers that individual students want to say are fine with me; official, government-supported prayers are not fine with me and not fine with the constitution.

ALLGIRLS:

That’s EXACTLY what the atheists want! I’m predicting a time when churches will be mandated to be nondescript, warehouse type buildings, with no external crosses or anything that leads one to believe the Worship of God might be taking place inside, lest some atheist drive by and become “offended”

This is a frightening look into the borderline insane, paranoid world that dwells between your ears. If you seriously think that this is a likely possibility, you have a lot of work to do getting back in touch with reality.

 

[graceandglory]

I thought the bible was the word of God and not the personal property of any one else. I don’t know what Paul knew but he knew God had made him an apostle and servent. His work or word could not contradict the already revealed word of God.

Says who, jericho?
How do you know? You are believing someone, I’m just wondering who.

 

[graceandglory]

Greetings CW,

Paul was telling Timothy All SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness .

Okay Jericho. Since this is what you believe, then you can’t add the New Testament Scriptures. The letter Paul was writing to Timothy was not in the scriptures at the time, there was no such thing as Christian scriptures yet, so with your interpretation you are limited to only believing this is in reference to the Old Testament.

 

[graceandglory]

Are you speaking of Mt 18 15-20? “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18“I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will bed bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bee loosed in heaven.
.

Jericho,
Do you have a tribunal? What process does your church have for listening to these cases? Have you ever had a case submitted? Do you know anyone who has? Does your church have a process for excommunicating its members? Just wondering.

By the way, the Catholic Church does all of this. The protestants did away with it.

 

[CWBetts]

Students can pray out loud, make the sign of the cross, read from a prayer book, do a rain dance, stand on their heads, or anything else they want on their own as long as they are not disturbing other students or classes.

We’re not talking about prayers here. We’re talking about official, instructor-led prayers that constitute the government supporting prayer over not praying. Prayers that individual students want to say are fine with me; official, government-supported prayers are not fine with me and not fine with the constitution.

ALLGIRLS: This is a frightening look into the borderline insane, paranoid world that dwells between your ears. If you seriously think that this is a likely possibility, you have a lot of work to do getting back in touch with reality.

If you are right, then why are public school kids forbidden from wearing clothing with a Christian message? Because the ACLU and like minded tyrants want to strip the freedoms form Christians, plain and simple.

 

[teadough]

They are outdated because of the efforts of secularists and people who respect the constitution. Even still, there are plenty of people who would like to change some of these things if they had the power. For example, take the relatively recent battles over “intelligent design” and science textbooks in some districts (Texas, in particular).

When I mean “outdated”, I was referring to your persistence in believing that all of this is still taking place in the majority of public schools…which it isn’t. Sure there are some still out there, but this stuff starting changing a while ago.

 

[teadough]

Students can pray out loud, make the sign of the cross, read from a prayer book, do a rain dance, stand on their heads, or anything else they want on their own as long as they are not disturbing other students or classes.

We’re not talking about prayers here. We’re talking about official, instructor-led prayers that constitute the government supporting prayer over not praying. Prayers that individual students want to say are fine with me; official, government-supported prayers are not fine with me and not fine with the constitution…

Like I said before, this stuff rarely goes on anymore. Im not sure how old you are or how long you have been out of school, but your arguments are really outdated. The ball has been in your court for a long time my friend.

 

[AJTheMan]

It has occurred to me that Fundamentalist Protestants and Atheists seem to be opposite sides of the same coin. This is exhibited by the sharing of two qualities:

1. When interpreting Scriptures, both factions insist on a literalist translation, ignoring genre, original audience, and idiom.
2. Both insist that their own view is 100% correct, and all else are absolute fools, decreeing themselves to be the final arbiters of truth.

Really, the biggest difference between the two is that Atheists will not believe the Bible under any circumstances, and Fundamentalists will not discard their misguided faith under any circumstances. Any thoughts?

You’ve made a terrible error in generalizing both groups. While I have something of a disdain for fundamentalism, there’s no need to cast them as all closed minded. It’s possible that there are a few fundamentalists who are open to other views but have their own reasons for believing what they do.

You also generalize atheists. Most atheists that I have encountered are agnostic atheists. That is, someone who does not find reason to believe that theism is suitable but also does not reject theism as wholly incompatible with reality.

A good example of this is found in this video at 1 Minute and 35 seconds

 

[jericho777]

Absolution of sin- John 20:23, he was addressing the 11 (the ordained priesthood) ONLY.
Binding and Loosing: Matthew 16:18-19
The Church as pillar of Truth: 1 Timothy 3:15

I am not adding anything. You are ignoring Truth

In case you may not know John 20:23 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. Notice Thomas was not there to receive the Holy Spirit.

Disciples are different from the 12 Apostles Joseph of Aramethia and And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple. So your assumptions are incorrect.

Where do you see the word church in 1 Tim 3:15? All SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

 

[jericho777]

Says who, jericho?
How do you know? You are believing someone, I’m just wondering who.

God authored it so it is His.

 

[graceandglory]

Where do you see the word church in 1 Tim 3:15? All SCRIPTURE is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

All water is wet.

That doesn’t mean other things can’t be wet.

 

[graceandglory]

God authored it so it is His.

Show me.

 

[jericho777]

Okay Jericho. Since this is what you believe, then you can’t add the New Testament Scriptures. The letter Paul was writing to Timothy was not in the scriptures at the time, there was no such thing as Christian scriptures yet, so with your interpretation you are limited to only believing this is in reference to the Old Testament.

Why are you trying to add things that are not in the bible. God did ordain His word it has proven itself 100% true. That is the proof of it’s authority.

 

[graceandglory]

Why are you trying to add things that are not in the bible. God did ordain His word it has proven itself 100% true. That is the proof of it’s authority.

I don’t know what you mean. Catholics haven’t added anything to Scripture.

 

[AntiTheist]

If you are right, then why are public school kids forbidden from wearing clothing with a Christian message? Because the ACLU and like minded tyrants want to strip the freedoms form Christians, plain and simple.

It’s true that there have been cases where school officials have gone too far in the name of church/state separation, and I am against instances of restricting students’ free speech. So is the ACLU, by the way: here’s an interesting case in which the ACLU last month defended the rights of students to distribute candy canes with religious messages before Christmas: aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-ma-defends-students-punished-distributing-candy-canes-religious-messages

I’ll draw your attention to this quote from an ACLU representative: “Students have a right to communicate ideas, religious or otherwise, to other students during their free time, before or after class, in the cafeteria, or elsewhere.”

Furthermore, check out the quote that heads this official ACLU webpage aclu.org/religion-belief/religion-and-schools

“Children’s religious education should be directed primarily by parents, families, and religious communities — not the public schools. The ACLU defends students’ free speech rights in the public schools and defends students’ rights to pray in the schools.” (emphasis added)

Are you still going to cry “tyranny,” or are you going to admit that you’ve been reacting to your fantasy that has nothing to do with reality?

teadough:

Like I said before, this stuff rarely goes on anymore. Im not sure how old you are or how long you have been out of school, but your arguments are really outdated. The ball has been in your court for a long time my friend.

Well, there are a number of news items about creationists on the school board in Texas, and there are other news items about similar issues, but my main point here is that there are plenty of people who would love to bring back prayer in schools and love to teach creationism and love to pass a constitutional amendment to prohibit gay marriage. The fact that it’s not likely that these people will succeed is a function of the efforts of people who respect the constitution and oppose efforts of the religious to legislate their beliefs.

Given the number of people who would still like to act and legislate on those beliefs, I think it’s worthwhile to continue to point out the flaws of those beliefs. If you don’t agree, you’re free to ignore me.

 

[CWBetts]

It’s true that there have been cases where school officials have gone too far in the name of church/state separation, and I am against instances of restricting students’ free speech. So is the ACLU, by the way: here’s an interesting case in which the ACLU last month defended the rights of students to distribute candy canes with religious messages before Christmas: aclu.org/free-speech/aclu-ma-defends-students-punished-distributing-candy-canes-religious-messages

I’ll draw your attention to this quote from an ACLU representative: “Students have a right to communicate ideas, religious or otherwise, to other students during their free time, before or after class, in the cafeteria, or elsewhere.”

Furthermore, check out the quote that heads this official ACLU webpage aclu.org/religion-belief/religion-and-schools

“Children’s religious education should be directed primarily by parents, families, and religious communities — not the public schools. The ACLU defends students’ free speech rights in the public schools and defends students’ rights to pray in the schools.” (emphasis added)

Are you still going to cry “tyranny,” or are you going to admit that you’ve been reacting to your fantasy that has nothing to do with reality?

teadough: Well, there are a number of news items about creationists on the school board in Texas, and there are other news items about similar issues, but my main point here is that there are plenty of people who would love to bring back prayer in schools and love to teach creationism and love to pass a constitutional amendment to prohibit gay marriage. The fact that it’s not likely that these people will succeed is a function of the efforts of people who respect the constitution and oppose efforts of the religious to legislate their beliefs.

Given the number of people who would still like to act and legislate on those beliefs, I think it’s worthwhile to continue to point out the flaws of those beliefs. If you don’t agree, you’re free to ignore me.

Atheism is by its very nature tyrannical. Atheists say it is freedom, bit it quickly becomes slavery.

 

[AntiTheist]

Atheism is by its very nature tyrannical. Atheists say it is freedom, bit it quickly becomes slavery.

So you have no actual response to the facts that I’ve presented?

Alright. As long as we all know…

 

[CWBetts]

So you have no actual response to the facts that I’ve presented?

Alright. As long as we all know…

The ACLU talks a lot of nice talk, but they ar just a bunch of hot air. In my locale, the county courthouse was to remove the Ten Commandments that were part of a display of historical law documents, which included the Magna Carta, Hammurabi’s Code, the Declaration of Independence etc. The ACLU has brought about such idiocies as “Holiday Trees.” They doo a poor job of hiding their anti-Christian agenda. Of course “information” from their OWN WEBSITE will be biased! Didn’t you ever learn about source evaluation? Sop much for atheists being so much more intelligent than everyone else…