Fundamentalism and the Search for God

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

… not only Christianity. We only accept each religion as it was given to humanity not how it has become over the centuries.

They were the words of Abdul-Baha. He was only stating what He believes is the foundation of Christianity.

Jesus gave His faith to the first Apostles who gave it to the apostles after them.

I won’t begin to speak for the various religions of the world.

I think it’s better to look for common philosophy and history. Leave religions to their natural diversity.

The Catholic and Protestant churches long ago gave up on the practice of catechising so I’m not complaining about Baha. But that’s no reason for you not to put what he says under your own microscope.

By abandoning catechesis (helped by the churches that don’t offer it anyway) you have deluded yourself that you are accepting the Christian faith. Why not just stand by in benevolent bemusement?

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

As I see it, fundamentalism is the complete opposite of the search for God.

People pass God on to other people, helped by Him. Looked at another way, He passes himself on to people helped by other people.

That involves a large body of teaching which is denied - thereby denying God - when you try to - or claim to - throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Teaching is the testimony (which is what revelation is) of the reasoning and experience of insights (which is also what revelation, of varying worth, is) of what is passed on by one (whether by God or by another human being, or both) from another.

Fundamentalism = shallowness = ignorance not only willed for oneself but imposed on others = denigrating one’s own intellect as well as that of others.

This seems to be your philosophy exactly.

You deny the reality of any person.

Krishna, Parshurama, Visvamitra and Musallam are flesh and blood in the round. For good and ill they impacted others like you and I do. They had philosophies worth getting our heads round for what they were varyingly worth. If we do that we respect them as fellow human beings. Because we put effort into using our minds, we acknowledge them as persons.

Just let the religions be. And put your brain to use in studying and appreciating them for what they are. There is a deeper purpose to their diversity which is inconvenient to your “apparently” neat scheme.

People who through many causes weren’t able to latch onto the search for God were kidded into thinking it looked good to be “able” to say they “believed” in God in some way, hence fundamentalism gained “adherents”.

Baha’ism probably works to an extent for people who aren’t near people with other beliefs. The claims it makes (so far) about beliefs other than its own aren’t (so far) well documented in those other beliefs. Is there doing to be an organic growth in Baha’ism as in the Catholic faith?

Fundamentalism hates growth. It stunts. The Old Testament says on every page, “Don’t stunt the growth of the widows and orphans”.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

If we have the answers we must put them on the table. In which ways can we bring about the betterment of the world and bring humanity back to God?

Preaching falls on deaf ears. It is not preaching the world wants but action. What can we do?

The most important table is the table behind your eyelids.

The most urgent field in the universe to cultivate is your own mind.

When we do this, we will be of good to others.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

Is it religion that must discard a lot of its shibboleths in order to become a force once again in the world? Must religion be renewed for this age? While religion may have provided comfort and guidance for past ages, it seems to have failed the modern age and is struggling for its own survival.

…

What role does religion play today in establishing world peace? Religion seems to be dying out in every land. What are people rejecting?

You have too many purposes of your own for religions (plural).

Let their own purposes be.

It is people that will do good, some of them incidentally with their diverse religions thrown in.

In 120,000 years, religions have fizzled out or popped up in amazing diversity.

“Failing the modern age” is a most interesting phrase. The Black Death, the rewriting (airbrushing) (by all sides) circa 1550 of early Reformation history, and the destruction twice over in less than 30 years of Magdeburg, are among crucial causes. These wiped out most of the infrastructure and intellectual equipment Europe needed to progress.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Is there anything we can do apart from passively watch the world destroy itself??

I advocate benevolent bemusement.

For instance a Muslim cannot become a Catholic and a Catholic cannot become a Muslim. Why? because both believe in the same God?

Since we and they draw on different sources, and deduce different beliefs, it appears we do not. This may be no bad thing but it’s vital to acknowledge it.

Also Jews and Christians accept the same God. Then why can’t they be one?

Give time time. Jesus didn’t tell us to set them a deadline, exactly, He will help them His way.

Why is there separation? Can’t we all become one human family united in our belief in one God and establish peace that way?

I mean no more religious division. Just one religion for all humanity under one God? Isn’t that the one fold and one shepherd Christ taught?

No! He says, I have another fold with other sheep!

Diversity is the very em-body-ment of cause for benevolence.

 

[Servant19]

I have no inclination to follow anyone else but the Son of God who has the Authority. I’m not sure why you are having such a hard time to understand the Peace of Christ. The Gospel is Eternal Truth.

The question wasn’t asking you to follow anyone.

The question asked who is responsible for the Words that the Buddha stated that are acknowledged by the Catholic Church?

Don’t judge me as if I’m claiming Authority. However I do claim the the Peace of Christ is life giving and the promise of repentance Beatific, Praise the Lord my soul!

It was your words Martin. You stated them with authority.
Why do you say that the the Buddha is “not Spiritually direct from God like when the Son emptied himself…”?

I believe when Jesus said: Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

Peace be with you.

MJ

Indeed you should, but why do you fail to believe when others have said similar things?

.

 

[Servant19]

I advocate benevolent bemusement.

Since we and they draw on different sources, and deduce different beliefs, it appears we do not. This may be no bad thing but it’s vital to acknowledge it.

Give time time. Jesus didn’t tell us to set them a deadline, exactly, He will help them His way.

No! He says, I have another fold with other sheep!

Diversity is the very em-body-ment of cause for benevolence.

Hi Vic

Might I ask you to consider the impact a non-benevolent society has on our ability to be benevolent?

What are your thoughts?

.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

…then I am sorry Martin, this simply is subjective speculation from the Christians.

…

If you say that belief in Jesus Christ - which implies a large body of information - is simply speculation, then claim to be affirming it without acknowledging that large body of information, then claim to be unifying it with other fairly incompatible bodies of information, it’s not honest at the level of all of and any of that information.

Baha and Bab should speak about their own God then we can listen to them in the terms of that. Names do get borrowed of course.

Fundamentalists deny bemusement, insult where people are really at, and abhor the effort to behold things that would make them human.

It “thrives” merely on the fad that it is in fashion to throw the empty word “God” into one’s vocabulary.

The way you paint Baha’ism, it looks to a ghastly extent similar to that.

 

[Servant19]

If you say that belief in Jesus Christ - which implies a large body of information - is simply speculation, then claim to be affirming it without acknowledging that large body of information, then claim to be unifying it with other fairly incompatible bodies of information, it’s not honest at the level of all of and any of that information.

Baha and Bab should speak about their own God then we can listen to them in the terms of that. Names do get borrowed of course.

Fundamentalists deny bemusement, insult where people are really at, and abhor the effort to behold things that would make them human.

It “thrives” merely on the fad that it is in fashion to throw the empty word “God” into one’s vocabulary.

The way you paint Baha’ism, it looks to a ghastly extent similar to that.

Hi Vic,

I never said that “belief in Jesus Christ is simply speculation”

Cheers

.

 

[TonyBS]

If you say that belief in Jesus Christ - which implies a large body of information - is simply speculation, then claim to be affirming it without acknowledging that large body of information, then claim to be unifying it with other fairly incompatible bodies of information, it’s not honest at the level of all of and any of that information.

Baha and Bab should speak about their own God then we can listen to them in the terms of that. Names do get borrowed of course.

Fundamentalists deny bemusement, insult where people are really at, and abhor the effort to behold things that would make them human.

It “thrives” merely on the fad that it is in fashion to throw the empty word “God” into one’s vocabulary.

The way you paint Baha’ism, it looks to a ghastly extent similar to that.

There is an amazing book of meditations that has been produced by Baha’u’llah that opens with these words;

HE IS THE GLORY OF GLORIES

"This is that which hath descended from the realm of glory, uttered by the tongue of power and might, and revealed unto the Prophets of old. We have taken the inner essence thereof and clothed it in the garment of brevity, as a token of grace unto the righteous, that they may stand faithful unto the Covenant of God, may fulfill in their lives His trust, and in the realm of spirit obtain the gem of Divine virtue".

The body of this work can be found here - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/HW/ - It is the inner essence of all the Revelations from God and what is recorded in all of the Holy Books of the Past.

It concludes with this statement;

“The mystic and wondrous Bride, hidden ere this beneath the veiling of utterance, hath now, by the grace of God and His divine favor, been made manifest even as the resplendent light shed by the beauty of the Beloved. I bear witness, O friends! that the favor is complete, the argument fulfilled, the proof 52 manifest and the evidence established. Let it now be seen what your endeavors in the path of detachment will reveal. In this wise hath the divine favor been fully vouchsafed unto you and unto them that are in heaven and on earth. All praise to God, the Lord of all Worlds”.

There is only One God

Regards Tony

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Hi Vic

Might I ask you to consider the impact a non-benevolent society has on our ability to be benevolent?

What are your thoughts?

.

Society doesn’t live in my head. I have a heart, a core. Jesus said, Be not of this world (in the sense of the sum total of values promoted by power-weilders), but in it. St Paul for example: Be not conformed to the world (in the sense of the sum total of values promoted by power-weilders). Many other wise people, something similar no doubt.

All this probably belongs to the bodies of knowledge you reject, simultaneously claiming to accept it.

I relate to people because I appreciate who and what they are.

Yes it takes work to strengthen and maintain that. We often spend years too much under the influence of consumerism, the politics of fear, etc. This is no easy task. It’s difficult. But that’s no reason to deny that we can set it before ourselves, to the extent feasible.

Because the free will be free to help (and have been in some countries, very effectively). Power weilders say that people should deny things that don’t need to be denied. But good government values justice and freedom of conscience.

In the Psalms, “Out of the depths I cry to thee O Lord” (not the shallows) and “deep calls to deep”.

Fundamentalism (the shallows) is convenient to power-weilders.

My benevolence comes from me, within my ability. Your benevolence would come from you. Have you got local colour and personality?

 

[Servant19]

Society doesn’t live in my head. I have a heart, a core. Jesus said, Be not of this world (in the sense of the sum total of values promoted by power-weilders), but in it. St Paul for example: Be not conformed to the world (in the sense of the sum total of values promoted by power-weilders). Many other wise people, something similar no doubt.

All this probably belongs to the bodies of knowledge you reject, simultaneously claiming to accept it.

I relate to people because I appreciate who and what they are.

Yes it takes work to strengthen and maintain that. We often spend years too much under the influence of consumerism, the politics of fear, etc. This is no easy task. It’s difficult. But that’s no reason to deny that we can set it before ourselves, to the extent feasible.

Because the free will be free to help (and have been in some countries, very effectively). Power weilders say that people should deny things that don’t need to be denied. But good government values justice and freedom of conscience.

In the Psalms, “Out of the depths I cry to thee O Lord” (not the shallows) and “deep calls to deep”.

Fundamentalism (the shallows) is convenient to power-weilders.

My benevolence comes from me, within my ability. Your benevolence would come from you. Have you got local colour and personality?

This is very easy for those who were fortunate to say Vic.

You, for whatever reason, have been blessed to recognise that you have a heart, a core and to respond to its calling.

There are many in this world, many in your country, many in your community, who have been so deluded by a rampantly degenerate society that there is not a single thread of evidence for them that they have a heart, a core, so much so that they want to eliminate its occasional calling by throwing drugs, alcohol and suicide in its direction.

Non-existence is better than existence.

God has given me the benevolence to recognise that it is not from my benevolence that this will change sustainably, but by a societal benevolence, which currently, in this current mode of operation is non-existent.

.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Hi Vic,

I never said that “belief in Jesus Christ is simply speculation”

Cheers

.

You stated that an essential and integral part of it, as given by those to whom Jesus Christ gave it, is simply speculation.

You will always claim that using an empty slogan like Jesus Christ which every drunkard does, constitutes “belief”.

To you, beliefs have no content and no value.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

God has given me the benevolence to recognise that it is not from my benevolence that this will change sustainably, but by a societal benevolence, which currently, in this current mode of operation is non-existent.

This doesn’t make much sense. It sounds like Stalinist-Maoist-Hitlerist propaganda.

The Sanskrit word purusha means individual. In the Bible, God is a person, indeed three persons.

Made in His image means made as persons.

This is what you are trying to deny to 480,000 members and numerous non-members who read the forum.

Have you got a personality and any local colour? Has anything ever happened to you?

 

[Servant19]

You stated that an essential and integral part of it, as given by those to whom Jesus Christ gave it, is simply speculation.

You will always claim that using an empty slogan like Jesus Christ which every drunkard does, constitutes “belief”.

To you, beliefs have no content and no value.

You quoted a post of mine which stated:

"…then I am sorry Martin, this simply is subjective speculation from the Christians. It simply is not true that “only Jesus came from Heaven”

…which was given as a response to Martin where he stated that ONLY Jesus came from heaven.

When you state something like this, you are not only claiming Truth from your own belief system, but you are also claiming falsity of other belief systems.

To claim that other belief systems are false, and the Founders of other religions who also came from Heaven are “lying” is simple “speculation” on Martin’s part.

It is actually he that asserts that “beliefs have no content and no value.” (it is our belief that the Bab and Baha’u’llah also came from heaven)
So I can assume that you are accidentally addressing me with this post, but you were intending to address Martin instead?

.

 

[Servant19]

This doesn’t make much sense. It sounds like Stalinist-Maoist-Hitlerist propaganda.

The Sanskrit word purusha means individual. In the Bible, God is a person, indeed three persons.

Made in His image means made as persons.

This is what you are trying to deny to 480,000 members and numerous non-members who read the forum.

Have you got a personality and any local colour? Has anything ever happened to you?

I have no idea what “local colour” means Vic.

.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

…

There is only One God

Regards Tony

There are many, which is why I with many others am discerningly a henotheist.

Thank you for the link, shall peruse the subject in ever greater detail.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

You quoted a post of mine which stated:

"…then I am sorry Martin, this simply is subjective [3] speculation from the Christians. It simply is not true that “only Jesus came from Heaven” "

…which was given as a response to Martin where he stated that ONLY Jesus came from heaven. [1]

…

It is actually he that asserts that “beliefs have no content and no value.” (it is our belief that the Bab and Baha’u’llah also came from heaven) [2]

[1] Martin’s statement was in the context of a body of teaching, quite natural at this site. Bodies of teaching are what disprove fundamentalism, which the OP sounded very concerned about at first.

[2] It’s very good to hear about the Bab and Baha in themselves.

[3] Testimony is indeed “subjective”.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Excellent! I’ll keep a copy of those quotes!! Really like them.

Keep a copy of the first three lines of Techno’s post, as well!

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

When do we learn this humility and how?

So much pride out there. It’s so simple to just accept everyone as a brother and love them.

Why is such a simple thing so hard to understand? Why killing and wars and to see people cry, babies killed? I can’t understand this madness and what drives it because in the end we go 6 foot under so what’s there worth fighting for that we won’t lose when we die?

War is about land. Therefore should we hope all the world population will walk on the sea?

Would that idea “make a splash”? Or would it “Peter out”?

Humility is born deep within. Jesus said the only sign we’ll have is the sign of Jonah.