Fundamentalism = Intellectual Shut-down

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Careful there… the Charismatic movement is alive and well in the Catholic church:

nsc-chariscenter.org

But what you said about not being open to other forms of God’s grace is spot on - in that if we don’t have joy that others receive our Risen Lord in slightly different formula, it’s as if we put limits on Him.

That is exactly what I ment when I said The Church embraces all aspects of Christs salvation. The Church has room for Charismatic, Penticostal,Meditative approaches to Christ.

 

[Doxiemom]

i call these guys “heresy hunters” and they are an unlovable group . A minority of course.

Now are they as bad as “rabid catholics” ??? yep. Also a minority.

You should not leave your brain outside of the church on Sunday mornings

or

when you blog on any internet forum

 

[benjohnson]

That is exactly what I ment when I said The Church embraces all aspects of Christs salvation. The Church has room for Charismatic, Penticostal,Meditative approaches to Christ.

Ah ha! My mistake!

I don’t think confessional Lutheran practice is compatible with the Charismatic movement, but that other Christians seem to draw closer to God by it is quite fine by me and I rejoice that they do so.

 

[BA11]

i call these guys “heresy hunters” and they are an unlovable group . A minority of course.

Now are they as bad as “rabid catholics” ??? yep. Also a minority.

You should not leave your brain outside of the church on Sunday mornings

or

when you blog on any internet forum

This. Nothing worse than a christian claiming other christians are going to hell.

 

[benjohnson]

This. Nothing worse than a christian claiming other christians are going to hell.

+1

It’s a true kindness and grace that God will judge us, rather than our fellow man, or even ourselves.

 

[BA11]

+1

It’s a true kindness and grace that God will judge us, rather than our fellow man, or even ourselves.

Good thing too, because I’d bet most all of us would be condemned by someone. Hell, I myself still marvel that the creator of the universe cared enough about little 'ol me to let his son be brutally murdered for my wretched nature.

It amazes me that some who claim to believe in a God that loves us THAT MUCH believe he’ll turn people away from heaven because they they worship him in different ways.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I don’t understand why it’s literally impossible to have an intelligent discussion with fundamentalist Christians. I use the word “fundamentalist” here in the extreme sense, mind you. It doesn’t necessarily apply to all Young Earth Creationists and Bible-literalists. Generally speaking, however, this is the group who’s members seem to have a sort of intellectual shut-down where good and evil is black and white, they’re right, you’re wrong, and you better repent of your Godless, Papist ways before we even discuss it. For example, I was watching a documentary on YouTube about Blessed John Paul II and saw a comment that read “antichrist!” Of course, implying that JP II was an/the anti-Christ. So, being the troll that I am, I responded to the comment, saying,
“That’s “Vicar of Christ” to you good sir.” -After I said that, he just wasn’t having it.

I got a personal message from him where he basically quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 and Revelations 18:4, applying it to the Pope saying “The pope is a usurper and a blasphemer!!..
Come out of her now!!”

Of course, when dealing with this sort of person, there is no use in explaining who the Pope is, how he comes to power, what we believe and why, etc. I have already tried doing this in the most charitable manner at this point, but he’s right, I’m wrong, even if all he has to go on is his “interpretation” of Sacred Scripture & insults towards our Pope.

I’m no fool, I know not to converse with quarrel-driven people such as this, but what I DON’T know is why they’re like this! Atheists commonly mistake all religious people as these kinds of people, but we’re really not. There are many devout Catholics, Muslims, Jews and… *some *Protestants with whom you can carry on enlightening conversations with, but some “extreme” fundamentalist Christians/Muslims seem to have no reasoning mechanism whatsoever! It’s cult-like behavior. I almost wonder if this man is under the guidance of a very ignorant pastor or if he has some sort of disease that makes him misapply Sacred Scripture to accommodate his twisted world-view.

I don’t get it. Is there a Psychologist in the house?

What are your thoughts, CAF?

Do you find it strange that those who call the pope anti-christ and call the Catholic church a false and pagan religion then take the holy book of that same false religion and from it try to construct a true religion?

Does that make any sense to you?

 

[BA11]

Do you find it strange that those who call the pope anti-christ and call the Catholic church a false and pagan religion then take the holy book of that same false religion and from it try to construct a true religion?

Does that make any sense to you?

The christians who believe the pope is or will be the anti-christ are the EXTREME minority and while the church isnt pagan in belief it is historical fact that many of the superficial actions and rituals, as well as the majority of the art and dress, in the church were derived from those of the pagans in an attempt to bring them to christ and incorporate them easily. That isnt a bad thing, but it is a bit dishonest to claim that catholicism and paganism are without a link given that the church as we know it was established with one of the primary purposes being to reign in the heathen pagans of Rome in the 4th century.

Also, the idea that the catholic church as it exists today “gave us” the bible is foundd upon three principles:

1: The infallibility of the physical church
2: The christians of the first century were “catholic”
3: The official 4th century canon, as well as the official decleration of the apocrypha as inspired in the 16th century, reflect the unofficial canon used by most prior to the organization of the church in Rome

All of which protestants reject, thus rendering any debate on the matter moot as there isn’t a common ground from whic arguments are drawn. It’s like telling an atheist something is true because it’s in the bible.

 

[october_baby]

The christians who believe the pope is or will be the anti-christ are the EXTREME minority and while the church isnt pagan in belief it is historical fact that many of the superficial actions and rituals, as well as the majority of the art and dress, in the church were derived from those of the pagans in an attempt to bring them to christ and incorporate them easily. That isnt a bad thing, but it is a bit dishonest to claim that catholicism and paganism are without a link given that the church as we know it was established with one of the primary purposes being to reign in the heathen pagans of Rome in the 4th century.

Also, the idea that the catholic church as it exists today “gave us” the bible is foundd upon three principles:

1: The infallibility of the physical church
2: The christians of the first century were “catholic”
3: The official 4th century canon, as well as the official decleration of the apocrypha as inspired in the 16th century, reflect the unofficial canon used by most prior to the organization of the church in Rome

All of which protestants reject, thus rendering any debate on the matter moot as there isn’t a common ground from whic arguments are drawn. It’s like telling an atheist something is true because it’s in the bible.

God bless you sir, but I do have one quibble with your assessment. I think it depends
on where you live whether hard crore fundamentalists are the minority.
Where I live the fundamentalists are very strong. However, it just not fundamentalists that
engage in questionable attacks. Take non-denominational churches, with the questionable
internet sites,sola scriptures,sola fidelis, and add spiritual relativism, and you have a
the makings of some pretty bizarre attacks against catholicism.

 

[BA11]

God bless you sir, but I do have one quibble with your assessment. I think it depends
on where you live whether hard crore fundamentalists are the minority.
Where I live the fundamentalists are very strong. However, it just not fundamentalists that
engage in questionable attacks. Take non-denominational churches, with the questionable
internet sites,sola scriptures,sola fidelis, and add spiritual relativism, and you have a
the makings of some pretty bizarre attacks against catholicism.

Don’t get me wrong, I know what you mean. I’m from Texas and have been around protestants of all kinds my whole life. There are some that are very, very difficult, one of the reasons I don’t consider myself baptist anymore. That being said, in the non-denominational and methodist circles I am around these days (my dad’s side is methodist) I don’t see much of it. I have too many catholic friends to subscribe to an ideology that condemns them anyway.

I think the “new age” calvinism running rampant, even among baptist churches, is stirring up trouble between protestants and catholics. It’s like they get kicks out of telling catholics they are damned. Combine that with some hardcore baptist ideology and you get an angry minority, but even then I don’t see many people going full blown “the pope is the antichrist”.

And don’t get me started on some of those internet sites, I’d have every one of them taken down if it were up to me. Nothing infuriates me more than a “christian” condemning a brother in Christ to hell. I always imagine a young kid or new catholic stumbling across those sites and living in fear of hell for years because of it. It’s awful and against the message of God. There are too few good christians in this world to ostracize each other.

 

[october_baby]

Don’t get me wrong, I know what you mean. I’m from Texas and have been around protestants of all kinds my whole life. There are some that are very, very difficult, one of the reasons I don’t consider myself baptist anymore. That being said, in the non-denominational and methodist circles I am around these days (my dad’s side is methodist) I don’t see much of it. I have too many catholic friends to subscribe to an ideology that condemns them anyway.

I think the “new age” calvinism running rampant, even among baptist churches, is stirring up trouble between protestants and catholics. It’s like they get kicks out of telling catholics they are damned. Combine that with some hardcore baptist ideology and you get an angry minority, but even then I don’t see many people going full blown “the pope is the antichrist”.

And don’t get me started on some of those internet sites, I’d have every one of them taken down if it were up to me. Nothing infuriates me more than a “christian” condemning a brother in Christ to hell. I always imagine a young kid or new catholic stumbling across those sites and living in fear of hell for years because of it. It’s awful and against the message of God. There are too few good christians in this world to ostracize each other.

Good post, it just that alot of the posters on the website The Blaze are non-denoms
and I had unfortunate encounter with a non-denom who insisted that the Vatican wants to have control of the world. But in the interests of fairness he said he had no problem
with average catholics just the leadership and institution of the church.

 

[BA11]

Good post, it just that alot of the posters on the website The Blaze are non-denoms
and I had unfortunate encounter with a non-denom who insisted that the Vatican wants to have control of the world. But in the interests of fairness he said he had no problem
with average catholics just the leadership and institution of the church.

My response to people like that has always been “If the pope isnt in heaven then you and I are screwed”.

Regardless of someone disagreeing with the church, arguing that someone who dedicates more of their life to christ than 99.9999999% of the people who have ever lived is somehow evil is just silly. None of us truly live up to what God wants out of our earthly relationship with him, but few come as close as truly Godly leaders of our churches.

 

[october_baby]

My response to people like that has always been “If the pope isnt in heaven then you and I are screwed”.

Regardless of someone disagreeing with the church, arguing that someone who dedicates more of their life to christ than 99.9999999% of the people who have ever lived is somehow evil is just silly. None of us truly live up to what God wants out of our earthly relationship with him, but few come as close as truly Godly leaders of our churches.

God bless you…

 

[kwortham]

I’ve tried this with a Baptist friend of mine. It doesn’t work. They seek to create their own history, a form of pseudo-history, to cope with the information they are given that determines them to be “right.” I gave my friend an entire list of Catholic names from century to century defining what is, and is not Christian belief and practice, and he simply said "well, at one point the Catholics were right, but then they became a break-away group who called themselves Catholic and came up with all of this (typical Catholic affiliation here), even though he has no evidence for this belief -it’s merely something he made up on a whim- there’s no legitimate reason to believe this. He also expresses extreme discomfort believing something extra-biblical. For example, there being a succession from every single Pope in every single century from St. Peter to Pope Benedict XVI. I mean, this is a simple fact of history…

Ultimately, the Holy Spirit has to intercede for them. This is where prayers from us must be made. Above all, never tell them that you are praying for them, because this will set off the Pavlovian response quicker than anything. Such, is the tip toeing around Pavlovian landmine that we have to do.

In my case I was having trouble with an issue and was not getting the proper guideance in the fundamentalist church. My Bible reading had been skewed by a lifetime of Pavlovian conditioning setup by the magisterium of the fundamentalist church. Of course, they will deny that a magisterium exists in their church, but just you challenge one of their beliefs and it will be heaped like coals upon your head.

Anyway, I was having a problem in which my church was no help and my understanding of the bible was no help. Hence, I turned to the early church fathers to seek clarification. After all, the true church had not fallen into error during the first couple of hundred years. As I read seeking clarification on my problem my Pavlovian conditioning was taking a rest. The ECF were holy and correct men. Therefore, I gave Pavlov the day off. It was during this reading that I began to say, “Catholics believe this.” How can this be, if it were not true from the beginning? I was on my way to Rome.

This began my journey out of the protestant church and into the catholic church. Every father taught the same things. I also discovered that they never taught the protestant doctrines of my fundamentalist church. History taught me to be catholic.

The main point of this post is that my Pavlovian response was caught of guard because of my drive to seek out the truth. The historic truth was more than enough to win the battle after my Pavlovian response was too little and too late to head off the discovery of the truth.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I can actually deal with someone who thinks that they are the end all and be all of their beliefs. A fundamentalist that "knows"what the Bible is saying and everything and everybody else is wrong is easier for me to tolerate than the fundamentalists that also believes they are the end all and be all of what a Catholic believes. My fundamentalist father-in-law is, in his mind, the human Catholic Catechism. It’s one thing to discuss this or that in the Bible. It’s quite another thing to discuss this or that in the Bible when the individual pigeonholes your beliefs, wrongly, in a corner. “Catholics worship Mary and other false idols. Idol worship is scripturally forbidden.” A war on two fronts…

God bless

 

[Erich]

Anyway, I was having a problem in which my church was no help and my understanding of the bible was no help. Hence, I turned to the early church fathers to seek clarification. After all, the true church had not fallen into error during the first couple of hundred years. As I read seeking clarification on my problem my Pavlovian conditioning was taking a rest. The ECF were holy and correct men. Therefore, I gave Pavlov the day off. It was during this reading that I began to say, “Catholics believe this.” How can this be, if it were not true from the beginning? I was on my way to Rome.

From this link:

1. Did the Apostles teach different doctrines to different people? Yes or no?

This question is a follow up of sorts to #19, and the answer, of course, is “No.” The Apostles all taught the same doctrines…ALL the same doctrines. After all, Jesus tells us that the Holy Spirit was to guide them into all truth. If they are guided into all truth, then they cannot help but teach identical doctrines…they cannot help but teach the same truths…to all the different peoples they came across. Again, from 1 Cor 11:18-19, it is obvious that there were those among the Corinthians who believed different doctrines. Who taught them these different doctrines, the Apostles? I don’t think so.

Well, if the Apostles didn’t teach different doctrines, then why is it okay for the pastors of today’s thousands upon thousands of Protestant denominations to teach different doctrines one from another? And, if it wasn’t okay for the Corinthians to hold to different beliefs…beliefs that caused division within the Christian congregation…then why is it okay today for Protestants to hold to different beliefs…beliefs that cause division within Christianity? This whole business of not only ignoring doctrinal differences within Protestantism, but actually justifying them with this essential vs. non-essential garbage is something that has no biblical basis whatsoever. Yet, Protestants don’t ever give it a second thought, and they continue to rail constantly against Catholics for the “un-biblical” nature of our beliefs (according to their fallible interpretations of the Bible).

 

[Adamski]

All exteme fundamentalist I have ever met and there are many are lapsed Catholics within 3 generations. Mike Genron grandfather was friends with Pidre pio, or at least he claims, mark Driscoll, was raised Catholic until at 19 her got his girlfriend pregnant who was the daughter of a fundamentalist and taught him the trade to make$, I’m sure John MacArthur has a similar story. In my town. Both of the big fundamentalist preachers are confirmed Catholics. My wife was an anti catholic because of how her mother was treated by a priest and since my conversion to christ and his church has changed a lot because she attended mass with me and looked into it.

Basically there is anger at a family member or a church doctirine such as divorce. And they are blinded by thier anger. At least that is what I see. I attended a fundemtalist church for seven years because “it had good music and coffee”. So I am coming from 1st hand expericence

 

[Della]

One of the most harrowing experiences during my years in the Assemblies of God came one evening when I was attending one of their Bible colleges and living in the dorm. We gals heard someone wailing and screaming and ran out of our rooms to see what had happened.

One of the girls ran down the hall, crying and wailing her heart out. Some of us gathered her up and took her into one of our rooms to try to calm her down and find out what was wrong.

She told us she’d just heard that her beloved grandmother had just died. Poor girl, we began to comfort her, but she would have no words of condolence. When we asked why, she told us it was because her grandmother was now in hell and had been for several hours since she died. The thought of it was too much for her to bear.

So we asked if she had been a Christian. “No,” the girl told us, she had been Presbyterian! We couldn’t believe our ears. And why couldn’t her Presbyterians grandmother be saved? Because, the girl told us, she hadn’t accepted Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior.

We tried to reason with her and say, maybe she did and she didn’t know it. But, no, the girl would not have it. As far as she was concerned her grandmother was now in hell and no two ways about it. And really, at the time, that was what we believed and told people they “had” to do.

That, and other incidents I won’t go into now, pried my eyes open to realize that the Christian faith was bigger than our narrow understanding. If I hadn’t been brought up Episcopalian before entering the AoG, I might have never been able to get away from the “we’re right, you’re wrong”, “us and them” concept of who can and cannot be saved.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

One of the most harrowing experiences during my years in the Assemblies of God came one evening when I was attending one of their Bible colleges and living in the dorm. We gals heard someone wailing and screaming and ran out of our rooms to see what had happened.

One of the girls ran down the hall, crying and wailing her heart out. Some of us gathered her up and took her into one of our rooms to try to calm her down and find out what was wrong.

She told us she’d just heard that her beloved grandmother had just died. Poor girl, we began to comfort her, but she would have no words of condolence. When we asked why, she told us it was because her grandmother was now in hell and had been for several hours since she died. The thought of it was too much for her to bear.

So we asked if she had been a Christian. “No,” the girl told us, she had been Presbyterian! We couldn’t believe our ears. And why couldn’t her Presbyterians grandmother be saved? Because, the girl told us, she hadn’t accepted Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior.

We tried to reason with her and say, maybe she did and she didn’t know it. But, no, the girl would not have it. As far as she was concerned her grandmother was now in hell and no two ways about it. And really, at the time, that was what we believed and told people they “had” to do.

That, and other incidents I won’t go into now, pried my eyes open to realize that the Christian faith was bigger than our narrow understanding. If I hadn’t been brought up Episcopalian before entering the AoG, I might have never been able to get away from the “we’re right, you’re wrong”, “us and them” concept of who can and cannot be saved.

The problem is that when we talk to people about religion, we are
talking about what people believe and not about what they know. There
is little chance of having a dialogue of open inquiry when you are
dealing with someone’s beliefs, and this goes for atheists too,
because they have their own beliefs, their own dogmas and their own
saints (such as Richard Dawkins). They think what everyone else
thinks, and that is basically that “everyone else has a belief system,
but I however, have the truth.” You asked if there was a psychologist
in the house. Well, I’m not one of those, but I’m human, and as a
human, one of the things I have the hardest time with emotionally is
the idea that I might someday cease to be. My religion gives me a
reason to hope that I won’t cease to be, and this is probably the case
for anyone who has a religion. When we challenge those beliefs,
people become fiercely defensive.

My personal belief on the matter is that it’s also largely due to the
influences of cultural background and life experience. I was raised as
a Catholic, and was schooled heavily on Catholic ideas from a very
young age. I will admit that this had a lot to do with why I am a
Catholic. I didn’t go looking for a religion on my own and then become
a Catholic. It’s how I was raised, and it’s how I think, and it’s
what resonates with me to this day, and probably always will. I will
probably always believe this in spite of what anyone else says. But
the difference is that as a Catholic, I was never taught that other
religions were bad or that other people were misguided. I was taught
to be focused on being a good Catholic. Period. But perhaps the
people you are talking about are taught bad things about us – that
we’re wrong and that the Pope is the Antichrist.

Now, I’m wondering if I had been taught those sorts of things about
them, how easy would it be for me to think otherwise? I might cling
pretty hard to those ideas if they were fundamental to what I was
taught about who I am and what I should believe, and all of that was
in turn tied to well being of my soul. My unqualified opinion is that
you’re challenging positions that people intend on taking to the grave
with them. One of the nuns who educated me as a child used to stress
that the best way for me to represent the Catholic Church among those
from other faiths was through rightful action, rightful words and
being an example of what I believe in how I conduct myself. She said
something to the effect that this was much more powerful than words or
discussion. I have never found her to be wrong in anything she told
me.

 

[JustaServant]

One of the most harrowing experiences during my years in the Assemblies of God came one evening when I was attending one of their Bible colleges and living in the dorm. We gals heard someone wailing and screaming and ran out of our rooms to see what had happened.

One of the girls ran down the hall, crying and wailing her heart out. Some of us gathered her up and took her into one of our rooms to try to calm her down and find out what was wrong.

She told us she’d just heard that her beloved grandmother had just died. Poor girl, we began to comfort her, but she would have no words of condolence. When we asked why, she told us it was because her grandmother was now in hell and had been for several hours since she died. The thought of it was too much for her to bear.

So we asked if she had been a Christian. “No,” the girl told us, she had been Presbyterian! We couldn’t believe our ears. And why couldn’t her Presbyterians grandmother be saved? Because, the girl told us, she hadn’t accepted Jesus as her personal Lord and Savior.

We tried to reason with her and say, maybe she did and she didn’t know it. But, no, the girl would not have it. As far as she was concerned her grandmother was now in hell and no two ways about it. And really, at the time, that was what we believed and told people they “had” to do.

That, and other incidents I won’t go into now, pried my eyes open to realize that the Christian faith was bigger than our narrow understanding. If I hadn’t been brought up Episcopalian before entering the AoG, I might have never been able to get away from the “we’re right, you’re wrong”, “us and them” concept of who can and cannot be saved.

Sad story. I wonder what happened to the girl?
Things like that are, many times, why young people turn to atheism.