Fundamentalism

[JaneFrances]

And I should have said this before. . .I’m glad you’re hanging around. As I said in the beginning, God has a purpose for your being here! God Bless.

 

[imroc]

malachi_a_serva:

Hello imroc and JaneFrances. I believe one God in three persons. So it would appear my original interpretation to be erroneous. Which makes me glad.

Thanks for clarifying.

Whewwwweeee!! You had me frightened there for a second! Besides the JWs and such, there’s a group of Pentecostal’s I ran into. Actually, I had to work on their heating system at their “chapel”. And these people were so far off the field when it came to the Trinity, I was dumbfounded! I grabbed a BUNCH of their tracts and literature on my way out and couldn’t believe what I was reading. Thank God you haven’t joined them. I’m trying to find a way to get to the root of the church and talk with their members about their beliefs. Pray for them!

 

[St.Eric]

Malachi,

I got your PM. thanks. I think the others have summed it up pretty well and it seems you have seen what Igantius was really getting at. The Triune God is truly a wonderful mystery! Three distinct “personages” if you will, in ONE GOD. Truly amazing. And you are correct, if you research the writings of the early church fathers (it is disturbing in a great way) it becomes clear very quickly that what they practiced and beleived is what the Roman Catholic Church is still teaching and beleiving today. Like I said, how could an apostle of John be wrong?! Gob Bless! And please, continue your inquiry into the church. The one difference with the Catholic church is that we invite inquirey into what we beleive. Why? Because as Christ said, “seek out the truth”; once you start seeking out the truth you will find it in the RCC. ps. As always, please forgive my spelling!

 

[MaggieOH]

deb1:

They show confession all the time in movies and on tv. That is why I know the 'Forgive me Father for I have sinned…" words, because that is how they usually show it on tv. As I am still in RCIA, I have not made my first confession nor have I been told what to say. I don’t even know if the above words are correct or are a creation of television and movies.

Ah, I do have an example. I love X-Files. In one program Scully went into the confession booth and said those words to the priest.

I am not accusing you of lying, just saying that most people, even Atheists, know the above phrase.

Oh dear, I am a practising Catholic and I go to regular confession. In the old days, when we used to go into a dark booth to confess our sins, we definitely began by saying “forgive me Father, for I have sinned, it has been … since my last confession”. I fell away from the Church during my teen years, but I did not leave being a Catholic. Then I returned over the years. Now, when I go to the Sacrament of Reconciliation, I use the cheat sheet. I prefer face to face confession. I rarely begin by saying “forgive me Father for I have sinned” I see the Sacrament as being more than confessing sins because it is also about guidance in one’s spiritual life.

Deb, I hope you will be looking forward to the first time when you enter the Confessional, and that you will experience God’s love as I have experienced God’s love.

 

[imroc]

Malachi,

Do yourself another favor and copy all the information between you and all of us. Keep going back to some older posts and seek the information out. God Bless!

imroc

By the way, I hope you find time to watch Our Lady’s Irish team play against those savages from Ohio State tomorrow!

 

[malachi_a_serva]

imroc:

Malachi,

Do yourself another favor and copy all the information between you and all of us. Keep going back to some older posts and seek the information out. God Bless!

imroc

By the way, I hope you find time to watch Our Lady’s Irish team play against those savages from Ohio State tomorrow!

Yes, I will thank you. By the way, in my continued reading I came across more clarification, so just in case anyone else is reading and needs clarification, here it is:

There is then one God and Father, and not two or three; One who is; and there is no other besides Him, the only true [God]. For “the Lord thy God,” saith [the Scripture], “is one Lord.”1305 And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father?1306 And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.”1307 And again, “One Lord Jesus Christ.”1308 And in another place, “What is His name, or what His Son’s name, that we may know?”1309 And there is also one Paraclete.1310 For “there is also,” saith [the Scripture], “one Spirit,”1311 since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.”1312 And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,”1313 with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.”1314 There are not then either three Fathers,1315 or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,”1316 not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honour.

From:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.v.xvii.ii.html?bcb=0

 

[MaggieOH]

malachi_a_serva:

While commiting these sins I was not attending church. Any church. The comments from the priest “put me off” church.

Never did I hear that “drunkards” should not inherit the Kingdom of God. (Gal 5). That one I plead ignorance on. As an egample, all the grown ups while I was growing up got drunk at Chrisitmas time, familly get togethers etc…

I cannot even think of such things now.

I can prove that people who go to Fundamentalist churches are still sinners. We are all sinners because we cannot help ourselves by giving into the temptations that we face every day.

I am not going to repeat the story of a family member who is not a Catholic but he is a member of a Baptist Church. His behaviour is not in the least bit Christ like. I do not care if he goes to church every day of the week, for what he has done is vile and he has not sought the forgiveness of those he has hurt with his vile lies and behaviour.

However, that being said, I should give witness to people who are not Catholic but who have attempted by the way in which they conduct their lives to follow the teachings of the Scripture. For this reason, I mention the members of the Baptist Church who went to Louisianna to help with the clean up operation after hurricane Katrina. Also I make special mention of the Southern Baptists of Florida who fought beside Catholics as we tried hard to save the life of Terri Schindler. One man deserves special mention because of his dedication to Terri as his client.

My point here is that if we are baptised and we behave in a way that is not becoming of a Christian then we are not worthy of being called Christian. Yes, it is more than likely true that members of your family did get drunk at Christmas time. It proves that they are human and that they sin. However, if they go to regular confession and confess those sins, then eventually they will be strengthened by the grace that they receive during absolution.

I attest that during Mass I have known what it is like for my soul to be lifted up to God. As a good Catholic and as a reader I confess that I cannot recite one passage of Scripture from memory. You know what, it makes no difference to my faith in God at all. I know that God exists because I have been filled with the joy that is His gift of Grace, on more than one occasion, when I have been standing up before the congregation and have been reading from the reading for the day.

Church can mean different things to different people. You concentrate a lot upon the sins of other people that you have known, but you do not seem to show true repentance for your own sins. If what you say is true about your ex-wife, then maybe you were inattentive to her needs such that she found herself in the arms of another man. Then if what you say is true about the issue of annulment, I would suggest that you are not telling the whole of the story.

First of all, you need to have a civil divorce before seeking an annulment. If you were divorced and you wanted to marry again, then you cannot marry in the sacramental way without getting the annulment. The annulment is needed to indicate that the marriage was not sacramental in the first place. The cost of getting the annulment is something I know nothing about, but it could be that what you are not telling us is that the priest was giving you an idea of how much it would cost in order to end the marriage from a sacramental point of view. So I think that you have distorted the facts here.

Second, when the Mass is ended we are sent forth to preach the Gospel through our very words and actions. If Catholics are going to Mass and continuing to sin, then they are not being faithful at all. On the other hand, if a person who is Catholic, goes to Church every day, and tries to help others in every possible way, then that person is living the Gospel message. A mother of several children is living the Gospel message in the way in which she handles her children with loving care.

Third, worldly separation is not necessary. We can be of this world and still belong to Christ. We do not have to be a part of some exclusive community setting. To not be a part of this world means that we do not go along with the culture of death, we do not promote abortion on demand, etc. It does not mean total withdrawal from the world.

I have my doubts about your “Catholic” upbringing because I have heard this form of argument before. It seems to be a set way in which Fundamentalists try to attract Catholics to their way of thinking. However, I will give you the benefit of my doubt and just see how sincere you really are and what you really know about being Catholic.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

MaggieOH:

I if a person who is Catholic, goes to Church every day, and tries to help others in every possible way, then that person is living the Gospel message.

Hi there.I have decided I will spend my time here to learn what I can learn instead of further accusing or defending this position vs that one. So my questions I ask, are with a sincere desire to understand, then evaluate.

You mentioned the above. As a “Protestant” I saw my sole purpose to spread the Gospel. To tell lost souls about Jesus for salvation etc…(not getting into if we need the Catholic Church etc…). You know, “The Great Commission”.

Is this commission given to everyone. Or is it the Catholic view that only those “called” to be priests etc…

I summary, by going to mass, living according to church teaching etc…and “tries to help others in every way”, is the the sole duty of man? The sole duty of a Catholic(layperson…not a priest etc.)?

Thank you for your post and I look forward to your response.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

\I have my doubts about your “Catholic” upbringing because I have heard this form of argument before. It seems to be a set way in which Fundamentalists try to attract Catholics to their way of thinking. However, I will give you the benefit of my doubt and just see how sincere you really are and what you really know about being Catholic.

I just got the meaning here so I thought I would comment. Believe me, I was a Catholic., for many a years. This is not some infiltrating attempt to…I don’t know what you think I could do. Actuall what you said, goes to my point. “I have heard this form of argument before”. I guess the repetitiveness would be a concern from a Catholic perspective. For me, my experiences with family, the Church etc…are all I have “as a Catholic”. ie…one can say all they want(beliefs, doctrines), when there is no fruit of any of it, there is no fruit. I think this being my whole issue with “my experience”…not speaking for any other.

 

[JaneFrances]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi there.I have decided I will spend my time here to learn what I can learn instead of further accusing or defending this position vs that one. So my questions I ask, are with a sincere desire to understand, then evaluate.

You mentioned the above. As a “Protestant” I saw my sole purpose to spread the Gospel. To tell lost souls about Jesus for salvation etc…(not getting into if we need the Catholic Church etc…). You know, “The Great Commission”.

Is this commission given to everyone. Or is it the Catholic view that only those “called” to be priests etc…

I summary, by going to mass, living according to church teaching etc…and “tries to help others in every way”, is the the sole duty of man? The sole duty of a Catholic(layperson…not a priest etc.)?

Thank you for your post and I look forward to your response.

I’d like to try to answer your question about the “sole duty” of a Catholic . . .

The “sole duty” of a Catholic is to LIVE the gospel. By doing so, we do not find ourselves in the position of boiling it down to any one, two, or three points. Living the gospel is a process of constant conversion and incessant attention to the WHOLE gospel.

The Great Commission to “Teach them to carry out everything I have commanded you And know that I am with you always to the end of the world!” (Matt. 28:20) is a commission far beyond any of our comprehension. It is the Commision of the Church. It is a commission for all Christians, however, we must be ever vigilant that the gospel we are spreading is indeed “holding to the sound doctrines of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching proper to true religion” (1 Tim. 6:3) and not just our version of it.

 

[Archbishop]

The Great Commission is not beyond our comprehension. Sorry to disagree on this. Any Christian, Catholic or Protestant, has a duty and responsibility to live the Christian life both by example and by word of mouth. The problem is, most are afraid to verbally share their faith in Jesus Christ with someone and lead them to a saving knowledge in Christ; to show a sinner the need for repentance and faith in Christ; to show the need to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church; and to receive the grace of the Sacraments. Most Christians have never been taught how to do this. Many are afraid of the rejection that will come.

Being kind, giving money to charity, helping out in disasters, doing numerous good works, are all good and are part of “working out our salvation in fear and trembling” as St. Paul tells the Philippians. But preaching and teaching is not limited to the clergy or to those who have the spiritual gift of teaching. Every Christian is to be an evangelist. People are dying every day in this world without a knowledge of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. And they have worked and lived next to Christians for years who lived the Gospel but never once spoke to them about the Gospel, who never once told then that they too needed a Savior, Jesus Christ.

There is an excellent paperback book called “Share Jesus Without Fear” that is available. Yes, it is written by a Protestant. Catholics will need to read it and eat the hay but spit out the thorns. But it is an excellent read on how to simply share the Gospel of Jesus Christ through normal conversation without sounding like a lunatic or a Bible thumper. There are also many excellent tracts put out by Catholic Answers and other Catholic ministries that can be used to share the Gospel with people.

The Great Commission was not the Great Suggestion. It was not the Great Mystery. It is divine command given by our Lord and King. May God through the Holy Spirit give us the boldness to do what he has commanded.

Archbishop +Mark

 

[St.Eric]

Archbishop:

The Great Commission is not beyond our comprehension. Sorry to disagree on this. Any Christian, Catholic or Protestant, has a duty and responsibility to live the Christian life both by example and by word of mouth. The problem is, most are afraid to verbally share their faith in Jesus Christ with someone and lead them to a saving knowledge in Christ; to show a sinner the need for repentance and faith in Christ; to show the need to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church; and to receive the grace of the Sacraments. Most Christians have never been taught how to do this. Many are afraid of the rejection that will come.

Being kind, giving money to charity, helping out in disasters, doing numerous good works, are all good and are part of “working out our salvation in fear and trembling” as St. Paul tells the Philippians. But preaching and teaching is not limited to the clergy or to those who have the spiritual gift of teaching. Every Christian is to be an evangelist. People are dying every day in this world without a knowledge of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. And they have worked and lived next to Christians for years who lived the Gospel but never once spoke to them about the Gospel, who never once told then that they too needed a Savior, Jesus Christ.

There is an excellent paperback book called “Share Jesus Without Fear” that is available. Yes, it is written by a Protestant. Catholics will need to read it and eat the hay but spit out the thorns. But it is an excellent read on how to simply share the Gospel of Jesus Christ through normal conversation without sounding like a lunatic or a Bible thumper. There are also many excellent tracts put out by Catholic Answers and other Catholic ministries that can be used to share the Gospel with people.

The Great Commission was not the Great Suggestion. It was not the Great Mystery. It is divine command given by our Lord and King. May God through the Holy Spirit give us the boldness to do what he has commanded.

Archbishop +Mark

Amen Amen! Thanks Archbishop for the post! Whenever I can I share the truth of the Catholic Church with everyone! I work in a state prison system so I have the opportunity to share the faith the prisoners and my co-workers as well! Glory be to God!

 

[JaneFrances]

Archbishop:

The Great Commission is not beyond our comprehension. Sorry to disagree on this. Any Christian, Catholic or Protestant, has a duty and responsibility to live the Christian life both by example and by word of mouth. The problem is, most are afraid to verbally share their faith in Jesus Christ with someone and lead them to a saving knowledge in Christ; to show a sinner the need for repentance and faith in Christ; to show the need to be part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church; and to receive the grace of the Sacraments. Most Christians have never been taught how to do this. Many are afraid of the rejection that will come.

Being kind, giving money to charity, helping out in disasters, doing numerous good works, are all good and are part of “working out our salvation in fear and trembling” as St. Paul tells the Philippians. But preaching and teaching is not limited to the clergy or to those who have the spiritual gift of teaching. Every Christian is to be an evangelist. People are dying every day in this world without a knowledge of Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. And they have worked and lived next to Christians for years who lived the Gospel but never once spoke to them about the Gospel, who never once told then that they too needed a Savior, Jesus Christ.

There is an excellent paperback book called “Share Jesus Without Fear” that is available. Yes, it is written by a Protestant. Catholics will need to read it and eat the hay but spit out the thorns. But it is an excellent read on how to simply share the Gospel of Jesus Christ through normal conversation without sounding like a lunatic or a Bible thumper. There are also many excellent tracts put out by Catholic Answers and other Catholic ministries that can be used to share the Gospel with people.

The Great Commission was not the Great Suggestion. It was not the Great Mystery. It is divine command given by our Lord and King. May God through the Holy Spirit give us the boldness to do what he has commanded.

Archbishop +Mark

No offense at any disagreement! I would offer, though, that our full “comprehension” of Jesus’ Great Commission is impossible this side of perfection. Our conversion towards Christ and his gospel message is indeed a great commandment (rather than a suggestion or a mystery), yet as human beings we often find ourselves wondering the same thing as St. Paul. Why do we do the things we loathe? It is hard to comprehend. I do not doubt that some great men have done better than I. Some, perhaps even, have perfectly “comprehended” what it is to “carry out everything [he] has commanded.” I can not know this. My response was meant to be encouragement towards a continued search for Truth. There are many things we can not and will not “comprehend” due to our human weakness. Where we fail to “comprehend” is where God’s gift of faith can manifest its power.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

Hi all and thanks for the great responses. Just on a side note, is anyone here David B. Currie. I bought his book about 1 year ago, “Born Fundamentalist Born Again Catholic”. I read about half but then when I compared it to “scripture”, I put it down. Becuase I believe when we compare scripture with the teachings of the church - it appears to be in contradiction.

The only thing that is holding me going along at this point, is the teachings and understandings of the early Church Fathers. Anyway, I notice Mr. Currie referrs to Mr. Hahn and Mr. Keating along with this website. I bought this book to see a different side of how one could possible join Catholicism - from a fundamental perspective.

I reviewing my answers though, I have a reply from “Archbishop” whom is a protestant as stated in his profile. But from a Catholic viewpoint, wouldn’t any “witnessesing” us Protestants do be in vain, since salvation is in the one true church?

I understand the Vatican has changed their perspective on that since Vatican II (which concerns me alittle since God does not change)…so how could his church?..but especially since the Eurchrist can only be obtain from a priest in the Catholic Chrch.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for your responses. I am now closer to answers that I am seeking for myself.

I believe I will meet with my Pastor in the next little while to explain this journey I am on. I respect and love him dearly. I have never before seen such a man of god (from a non-Catholic perspective).

I haven’t been attending “every” church service for about the last 4 weeks or so (for someone who was there about 10 hours a week in services etc…quite the drop). I felt I needed to to ensure a balanced and fair evaluation of any information I receive.

Thanks again.

 

[Archbishop]

JaneFrances: Thanks for the clarification. Most definitely we all fall short of the glory of God so many times and fail to do his will perfectly. This is why conversion is an ongoing process. But by the grace of God we are able to progress from one degree of glory to another as St. Paul says.

Malachi, I am an Anglican-Catholic Archbishop. I spent over 40 years as a Baptist and many of those were as a Baptist pastor and preacher. I am fully conversant in Fundamentalism and legalism. I know the bondage it can put you in. Trust me, it is still possible to be a holy and righteous Christian and be full of the Holy Spirit and be a Roman Catholic. There will be enough Fundamentalists in hell to hold a Bible Conference. There will be enough Bishops and priests there to join them as well.

Our Lord has said that the weeds and the wheat will grow side by side in His Church until the day He returns.

You look at the Bible now and say that there are many things that you heard in the Catholic Church that were not correct. I look at the Early Fathers and the teaching of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church and see that many of the things I was taught as a Baptist were not correct!!

I know the Roman Catholics here will say that is an oxymoron that I am an Anglo-Catholic and will say that the Eucharists I offer are not valid. I won’t argue those issues here. I am on this board to learn and get insights as well and appreciate the discussions. But, regardless of those issues, people need to come to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. If they happen to find him in a Protestant Church or Anglo-Catholic setting, so be it. Who knows but the Lord may be pleased in His time to lead them into the Roman Church.

Stick to reading the Early Fathers. Learn to love them and try to walk in their shoes.

+Abp

 

[Will_Pick]

malachi_a_serva:

Hi there. In your “library” under “non-catholic groups” is the following statement:

"Their success is partly due to their discipline. For all their talk about the Catholic Church being “rule-laden,” there are perhaps no Christians who operate in a more regimented manner. Their rules—non-biblical rules, one might add—extend not just to religion and religious practices proper, but to facets of everyday life. Most people are familiar with their strictures on drinking, gambling, dancing, and smoking.

Fundamentalists also are intensely involved in their local congregations. Many people returning to the Catholic Church from Fundamentalism complain that as Fundamentalists they had no time or room for themselves; everything centered around the church. All their friends were members; all their social activities were staged by it. Not to attend Wednesday evening services (in addition to one or two services on Sunday), not to participate in the Bible studies and youth groups, not to dress and act like everyone else in the congregation—these immediately put one beyond the pale; and in a small church (few Fundamentalist churches have more than a hundred members) this meant being ostracized, a silent invitation to conform or to worship elsewhere.

Nevertheless, despite the criticism Fundamentalists sometimes receive, they do undertake the praiseworthy task of adhering to certain key Christian tenets in a society that has all too often forgotten about Christ. "

I am somewhat perplexed on the attack of being obiedient to the word of GOD, as it is in the Holy Bible. I do understand the viewpoint. I grew up and was raised Catholic. I went about my life as any other person in this world. I smoked, I drank alcohol, got drunk all the time, had sex outside of marriage with people I met in the bars…all these things I did with my Catholic friends…with Catholics and too Catholics (the sex part). How is that evidence of a Christian walk with GOD? Then, I was born again… and became a new creature in Christ…just as the bible says. The fruit, my fruit is totally different. I guess I am just asking why the attack on Christians being obiedient to what they read in the bible? Are we suppose to smoke? Is not the body the Temple of the Holy Spirit? Are we suppose to gamble? Ones good luck is at the misfortune of allot of others. Are we suppose to dance as we know dance now? All that dance on much music and MTV look more like sex acts…does it cause one to lust? which is a sin…are we suppose to drink? If so, how much? The bible says that “drunkards” will not see the Kingdom of God".

The Bible does preach on seperation of the world. Something that was totally unknown to me. In fact, as a Catholic…I knew nothing what the Bible really preached.

I look forward to any replys.

ps…I am new at this, my first posting.

Your words (The bible says that “drunkards” will not see the Kingdom of God".". You are a little confused on having a drink and being a drunkard,having a drink is not being a drunk,in fact Paul said a little wine is good for you,and my doc said a glass of wine is good for you,Thank you for posting and I hope you have a great New Year.

 

[JaneFrances]

malachi_a_serva:

Just on a side note, is anyone here David B. Currie. I bought his book about 1 year ago, “Born Fundamentalist Born Again Catholic”. I read about half but then when I compared it to “scripture”, I put it down. Becuase I believe when we compare scripture with the teachings of the church - it appears to be in contradiction. . .

But from a Catholic viewpoint, wouldn’t any “witnessesing” us Protestants do be in vain, since salvation is in the one true church?

I understand the Vatican has changed their perspective on that since Vatican II (which concerns me alittle since God does not change)…so how could his church?..but especially since the Eurchrist can only be obtain from a priest in the Catholic Chrch.

Okay Malachi, I’m going to have to call you on these, too!

1. When making assertions such as “when we compare scripture with teachings of the church–it appears to be in contradiction” back them up. Examples? These are great new thread starters that can focus your grievances and perhaps help you understand better the teachings you seem to think are contrary to Scripture. In this thread, historically, you have made certain statements regarding a “Catholic teaching” and have since come to realize that your understanding of that teaching was not entirely accurate. Please be specific. Broad general statements like “scripture and church teachings are in contridiction” seem to be empty accusations and are not helpful in dialogue.
2. Did one of your bad Catholic relatives tell you that the Church considers “witnessing” to Protestants a vain endeavor? You say that you are speaking “from a Catholic viewpoint” and I’m interested to know how you have come to this conclusion. It is utterly false. I challenge you to find some official Catholic teaching that would support your claim.
3. Once again you have made the assertion that the Church has made some radical post-Vatican II change. Please provide your before and after proofs.
4. So, you are continually convinced that the Catholic Church may be wrong because you have observed some “changes” in perspective? Hmmmm. . .You say that because the Church may have changed its perspective and God “does not change” that it is indication that this isn’t His Church. Malachi, open your Bible. . .Did not the Church “change its perspective” when St. Peter admitted the first Gentiles into the Church? This was a highly controversial decree he made that was met with much discord and objection, yet once St. Peter made the doctrinal decree the “perspective” eventually changed. Does this mean that this isn’t a vision of the Body of Christ or that it isn’t the real Church simply because the perspective changed?

And to be clear. . .It is entirely probable, persmissable, and no cause for concern that certain aspects of our “perspective” would be altered and develop over time. It’s called conversion. You are most correct that God does not change–He is who AM. However, you would be hard pressed to find a static God in the pages of Scripture. He is a responsive and loving father who always has proven to alter the course of humankind according to our needs. Throughout ancient Judaism and historical Christianity, we observe through the witness of Holy Scripture a God whose relationship with his people has indeed “changed.” And it isn’t becuase God has changed, but because he is changing us.

 

[malachi_a_serva]

JaneFrances:

Okay Malachi, I’m going to have to call you on these, too!

1. When making assertions such as “when we compare scripture with teachings of the church–it appears to be in contradiction” back them up. Examples? These are great new thread starters that can focus your grievances and perhaps help you understand better the teachings you seem to think are contrary to Scripture. In this thread, historically, you have made certain statements regarding a “Catholic teaching” and have since come to realize that your understanding of that teaching was not entirely accurate. Please be specific. Broad general statements like “scripture and church teachings are in contridiction” seem to be empty accusations and are not helpful in dialogue.

I must be coming across wrong, yet again. Because where I am “now” is trying to understand teaching outside of “Bible Only”. So when I refered to Cath. teaching vs. scripture and I put the book down because it looked like it was opposing…let me try and explain that better. This was 1 year ago when I bought the book. From a “scripture only” point of view, Mary’s forever virginity looks contrary to scripture with all the verses regarding “brothers” or “brethern” that have been discussed. Her Imaculate Conception" seems contrary to scripture as “for all have sinned”. The apparent Relic worship…and thou shalt not make gravin images. These are some example. What I was trying to say was that when one looks at those scriptures with what the early church fathers believed…it could be correct. Plus I am not trying to say any of those are wrong…at that time (1 yr ago) it appeared contrary to scripture. Now I have been fortunate enough to be able to delve into what the early church fathers believed.

Sorry I am trying to be brief as I am at work and will comment on the others later.

Friom my point right now, I am not trying to attack any teaching of the Catholic church…just trying to understand them, consider them and see if I can reconcile them with the info given. This is possible when one goes away from “sola scriptura” (or whatever it is. (Bible only as sole authority).

These threads have been very helpful. For instance, some mentioned my experiences not so much church related as me related. I am seriously concidering that…etc…

So this one way communication is not the best. I have not been “accusatory” for some time now. Only here to listen, ask, learn, investigate and evaluate. I have been praying that the Lord will lead me to the truth. If it is here, I am sure I will see it. If it is not, I will leave better informed.

I grew up thinking I was a “Christian”. Once I got into my independant fundamental circle and heard Catholics were not “Christian” I had a hard time with this…swaying back and forth etc… I now know, regardless of my final summation, Catholics are Christian.

I have been trying to say allot but there is too much to say. I left the church prob. about 18 years ago. Only been a “born again” Indapentant Fundamental Baptist for 2 years. But a very intense 2 years. I have 17 different bible (10 different versions) and I have been studing them all intensely. The thing is, from a point of “scripture only” as ones only rule of authority, the Catholic Dogma is hard to reconcile. Looking at it with other things, tradition, etc…it is more readily understandable if not acceptable.

Sorry for all the typoes, no time to even proof read, thought I would be courtious and reply quickly.

 

[imroc]

Malachi,

I know it’s been brought up, but I think you should post some topics about your detailed questions, like “relics” and the perpetual virginity and immaculate conception.

I believe I read that you are trying to think outside of the bible alone. Correct me if I’m wrong, 'cause I’m just skimming through . The irony of these two questions are extremely related! Actually, if you were attend Mass yesterday, you could’ve found a couple answers. God did not forbid us to make graven images altogether. As a matter of fact, God later on calls for the Ark of the Covenant to be created, which is one heck of a graven image. The irony is that the Virgin Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Much much much more to talk about.

Like I said, I think you should create two topics, one on relics, graven images, statues, etc. And the other on the Virgin Mary. You’ll find that those two topics are very much related in a deep way.

 

[manualman]

In the catholic church, doctrine doesn’t change. But our understanding of the sacred deposit of faith grows in every generation. Plus the culture in which we live changes around us and the WAY in which the gospel is proclaimed must consider the culture which is listening (read more St Paul if you think that is a bad thing).

Catholicism has always taught that no one goes to the Father except through Christ. (Sound familiar?) Next, Christ established one, holy, catholic and apostolic church to proclaim his good news and safeguard its integrity. Christ established the church and gave her an endless river of grace in the form of sacraments to nourish her. It is from sacred scripture that the church concluded that since Christ is the ONLY way to the Father and that since Jesus established ONE church, that the logical conclusion is that this church is the one path to salvation.

However as time has ground on, certain other truths have become obvious. The number one rule to remember with God is that HE writes the rules. Just as in the days when the Mosaic Law came into conflict with Jesus ministry, the God of perfect justice knows when the intent of the law supercedes its letter. There are many in the world who despise the what they mistakenly believe to be the catholic church, but in their hearts truly love God and have humbly accepted his Grace. Some of these people might even think distastefully of the name of Jesus, but KNOW him in their hearts through some mysterious means of grace of which we puny humans have no knowledge. The Catholic Church teaches that each of us is judged by how we have responded to the graces offered to us by God. While no one comes to the Father except through Christ, and Christ has established his church as the vehicle for this to occur, there ARE some who enjoy these graces without ANY concious knowledge. In other words, if you, Malachi, are going to heaven, you’re catholic (like it or not!).

This does not at all diminsh the Great Commission. All the more, we become responsible for being the occasion for grace to enter the lives of those around us - even the ones who watch Desperate Housewives!

Think more about evil. For me, the biggest turn-off of fundamentalism was that very attitude that the world, the culture, the society was EVIL. That creates a very fortress mentality that isn’t healthy. The world is NOT basically evil, in spite of how things sometimes appear. It is GOOD, but fallen. That is a crucial difference! Even music that contains evil lyrics can also contain beautiful melody, even drama that contains an evil theme can also contain moments of human emotion and need that tell us something about God and humanity. Thus, when you paint the whole shebang as ‘evil’ you unknowingly place a barrier to the gospel among those who recognize fleeting glimpses of the Divine presence in our world when you (a known christian) label that thing ‘evil’ by christian standards. That person suddenly believes (usually unconciously) that to embrace christianity requires rejecting as evil that which they saw as good in the music, drama, etc. Don’t go handcuffing Jesus like that.