Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

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lovesMary

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I suppose some people here have been following the news about the polygamist sect? What do you all think? Do those people have a right to raise their children as they see fit? After all, in Bible times young girls were married off to older men in arranged marriages. Is this no longer okay because society in general says it isn’t? What makes it wrong now, but it was okay for the Bible Patriarchs, who were avid polygamists?
 
Are you saying you agree with this polygamist sect? They are pedophile men who have joined this sect, molesting in the name of God. These women are brainwashed. It is a cult, and a terrible one.
 
Polygamy was permitted by God in the Old Testament until the revelation of the gospel by Christ. Then it was never permitted by the church. It took heresies such as Mohammedism and Mormonism to bring it back with a vengence.
 
Righteousone said:
Are you saying you agree with this polygamist sect? They are pedophile men who have joined this sect, molesting in the name of God. These women are brainwashed. It is a cult, and a terrible one.
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Of course I don’t believe in what they are doing. I was bringing up some points for discussion here. Polygamy is practiced in Muslim countries to this day, no doubt with similar sinister motives. It was also practised in Bible times, with no doubt some similar problems.
 
yes i have been following this sad story very closely. I feel so much pity for the poor people who got sucked up into this religion. right now they are suffering terribly. they really need our prayers. unfortunately they cannot be left to their own devices as they are violating the laws, as well as the norms of Judeo Christian morality. But I am certain that most of them are just everyday people who ended up in the wrong place at the wroing time.
 
J_C said:
yes i have been following this sad story very closely. I feel so much pity for the poor people who got sucked up into this religion. right now they are suffering terribly. they really need our prayers. unfortunately they cannot be left to their own devices as they are violating the laws, as well as the norms of Judeo Christian morality. But I am certain that most of them are just everyday people who ended up in the wrong place at the wroing time.
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Or born into it and raised in a very isolated and paranoid community.
 
lovesMary said:
I suppose some people here have been following the news about the polygamist sect? What do you all think? Do those people have a right to raise their children as they see fit? After all, in Bible times young girls were married off to older men in arranged marriages. Is this no longer okay because society in general says it isn’t? What makes it wrong now, but it was okay for the Bible Patriarchs, who were avid polygamists?
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Suppose the police received a call from a woman who said she was raped in your home, but she never was in your home. They raided your home on the basis of the call and took your children. They found out the call was a fraud, removing the reason for the raid and seizure of children, but they decided to keep your children anyway, because they disapprove of your religion. I disapprove of this religion. I think they are a nutty cult. Their leader is in jail where he belongs, but there is no evidence that a crime was committed and the police seized over four hundred children. They raided this compound with heavy armor and took four hundred children. So they can not determine who the fathers are. Is that cause for this raid. There are millions of women who have no husbands or had several with kids by them all and they get welfare. This is the kind of thing that makes people despise the government. The Reno raids killed a lot of people. At Ruby Ridge the government shot and killed a mother with a baby in her arms, and nothing was done about it. Who is more of a threat to human life, and liberty, this nutty group or the government that sanctions and pays for abortions, and siezes children under false accusations, burns them holed up in a dormitory in Waco, or gets involved in a siege reminiscent of medieval warfare at Ruby Ridge?
 
I wonder why they picked the ranch to raid and find underage pregnant girls and not the public alternative high school next to my home?
 
Good point, there are millions of children who are engaging in premarital sex, whose parents are irresponsible and expose them to shack up boyfriends, allow them to watch trash on TV, overindulge in drugs or alcohol, leave their children unmonitored on the internet. In that case, the kids are sent to Planned Parenthood to get on birthcontrol or get an abortion.

I just wonder how much worse this situation is, other than being out of the maintream way of being a bad parent.
 
grandfather said:
Who is more of a threat to human life, and liberty, this nutty group or the government that sanctions and pays for abortions, and siezes children under false accusations, burns them holed up in a dormitory in Waco, or gets involved in a siege reminiscent of medieval warfare at Ruby Ridge?
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Personally, I would side with the government. How loud would you be screaming if the caller was for real, and the government did nothing about it?

I have heard reports that they in fact did find the girl that called in.

I have heard reports that the adults in that compound said the girl didn’t exist, but yet numerous kids stated that she did.

I have also heard news reports that since these were “spiritual” wives, they were eligible for, and received government aid or assistance for those children. If that’s true, our tax dollars were sanctioning this behavior.

The primary objective should be the safety of the children. Abuse doesn’t have to be physical to be abuse. A child calling 44 different women “mommy” is abuse in itself. (One man of this cult was listed as having 44 wives)

As far as your comments regarding the Waco incident, there are a couple of differences. 1. The Waco residents were shooting at the agents. 2. They set many, if not all of the fires there themselves, not the government agents. If you want to pity someone, pity the families of the dead government agents who were out gunned by a religous cult.

Here is an excellent link to an article regarding Waco. query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE1DA1131F93BA15750C0A965958260

As far as our government sanctioning abortion. I will say this. If we as parents would do our jobs, and get our children in church, and teach them the correct moral values, along with abstinence, respect for life, abortion would not be an issue. We all agree that abortion is wrong. I feel that our approach in stopping it needs to start at home and work upward.
 
I’ve been arguing with my wife (in a civil way) about this situation, her having been born in to an legalistic border line cult she has strong feelings in favor of what the government did. Although I disagree with this group and think of them as a fringe sect I worry first they take them, then the Amish then all conservative christianity. If you took 400 random kids under 18 from any segment of the country how many would have been active. The argument seems now to be that they don’ want to return the kids because their religion is authoritarian and oppressive to the woman, this could be said by a radical justice system about any religion. What if they collectively attacked the R.C.C. for a few abusive families and started taking your kids away in a guilt by association. and now they say it could have been a disgruntled reporter who made the call.
 
Yes, many good points have been made here and I have been watching the news with a lot of interest on this one. I think what the authorities did was much too heavy handed and if they would have just concentrated on preventing any future underage marriages instead of splitting up cohesive families their actions would have been more widely supported.

I’m no lawyer but there’s technically not much they can do otherwise. As noted, there’s lots of underage sex, some of which results in pregnancy now, most of which goes unprosecuted. As for the polygamous marriages, there’s no law against either aldultery and fornication, and polygamy is a slightly different creature anyway. I would say that polygamy is more desirable than either fornication or adultery because at least there’s a vow betweem the partners. These plural marriages aren’t legally recognized (I think they only exist in church records), and so I don’t know what you can do legally.

My own feeling on polygamy is that maybe some of it can be tolerated but on whole, it’s no road to a happy society. I am disappointed with the news because they seem to be criticising the practise most from the point of view that the women need to be brainwashed in order to participate. Such a charge is deeply rooted in the belief of the superiority of current American culture. I believe it’s the young men and older women that bear the brunt of this arrangement. In order to keep the hot young babes for themselves, the older men need to get rid of their sexual rivals and so they are always looking for reasons to toss out the young men. This is just so wrong. As for the older women, after their child bearing years are over, I would imagine they receive very little attention. And that’s on top of the lack of fatherly support the wife and children would have never gotten because the father was spread amongst three or so families.

But in this whole story, it looks more like a clash of cultures than anything. I think more cultural persecution than religous persecution. Young marriage and polygamy are not unusual outside of American culture. I do wonder what right a society has to enforce its cultural values. I think some, but it’s not absolute!

As has been noted, some muslims in America do exactly the same thing. (debbieschlussel.com/archives/columns/, see "Two Polygamists Walk Into A Bar).
 
The government overstepped its bounds in this case. However, texas is now attempting to salvage a botched raid by trying to find some evidence of widespread abuse to prevent a massive lawsuit against eh state. The government is now doing DNA testing to attempt to find who the parents are for these children. It is ridiculous of course and very traumatic for the kids.

Texas overeacted as did some posters in this section of the forum.
 
why_me said:
The government overstepped its bounds in this case. However, texas is now attempting to salvage a botched raid by trying to find some evidence of widespread abuse to prevent a massive lawsuit against eh state. The government is now doing DNA testing to attempt to find who the parents are for these children. It is ridiculous of course and very traumatic for the kids.

Texas overeacted as did some posters in this section of the forum.
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Im sure im reading this correctly, but are you saying this act is ok?
If you are, you are sick and need help
 
why_me said:
The government overstepped its bounds in this case. However, texas is now attempting to salvage a botched raid by trying to find some evidence of widespread abuse to prevent a massive lawsuit against eh state. The government is now doing DNA testing to attempt to find who the parents are for these children. It is ridiculous of course and very traumatic for the kids.

Texas overeacted as did some posters in this section of the forum.
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Doing DNA testing will help these kids know who their biological parents are, and you’re saying that’s ridiculous or traumatic?

One attorney representing one of the children, was interviewed stated that even she couldn’t who the biological parents were

Why did the state overstep their bounds? In any possible abuse case, it is the duty of us as individuals, and the state to protect the children. That means all of the children in the situation, not just the one reporting, or the one at the center of the allegation.

Hypothetical situation: There are two children in a home, and one is being starved. (which has happened) Are we only concerned with protecting the one child who is being starved? Or are we responsible for protecting the other child also? Does the state remove just the one child, or both?

The only difference, is the numbers involved. With such large numbers, the state has no choice to try to protect ALL of the children until all of the facts can be sorted out.

It has been reported that one of these cult members had 44 wives. How would you like to have 44 mothers? Who is your mother? Why does Bobby have 5 mothers and I have 44?

I wonder how loud you would be screaming if one of these kids was killed, and the state of Texas did nothing to prevent it. I’m sure you would be yelling “why didn’t they do something”.

Whether they find any physical abuse or not, I feel the state acted appropriately by trying to protect the children.

Your statement about people “overreacting” is a bit ridiculous. Just because someone disagrees with this bunch, and with you, doesn’t mean they are overreacting.
 
Many people in the world don’t know who their biological parents are, such as adoptees and products of artificial insemination. Also, there are millions who don’t know who their fathers are because of the promiscuity of their mothers. They seem to survive fine. In fact, society, and The Church, bends over backwards to avoid “judging”, mostly in the interests of not hurting the child.

So tell me why the government is suddenly so appalled that men are having sex with more than one woman, or that underage girls are having sex? Isn’t this the same government that hands out condoms in the highschools?

I’m not condoning this cult, but I am saying that we live in a free society that tolerates many variations in human behavior that I don’t approve of. The same CPS organization will work so hard to reunite a foster child with his/her drug abusing, prostitute mother. I hope they give the same consideration to these people.
 
There is a major difference between sex in high school and the institutionalized abuse of children that this cult promotes.

These girls are raised from birth to understand that they are property, to be given away to a man.

A girl in high school is acting of her own accord, usually with a boy of her own age. And if an adult man were to target a high school girls for sexual relations we’d all call him what he is, a pedophile.

This situation in Texas is worse than that. There is an authoritarian group of men deciding how high school aged girls, property, will be divided up among them. The girls have no say in this. They are nothing but property. A girl as two purposes in this cult…f*cking and having babies.

These “marriages” are a sham. As are the so-called “commitment”. These child-wives, and the adult wives, can be re-assigned to another man at any time in their lives. Why? Because it is the cult itself that owns everything. They own the land, the houses, the schools, the cars, everything. And they own the women and children. When a man in this cult is thrown out, his wives and children are not his. They belong to the cult and are reassigned to another man. Just as any other property would be.
 
i wouldn’t say the local Texas authorities “over-reacted.” the news doesn’t show the pressures that have been put on the authorities by the local Christians. This thing has undoubtedly been boiling for a long time. it picked up heat with the Jeffs affair, and has been ongoing as a local matter. it didn’t just start up the day we heard about it in the newspapers.

it must also be remembered what a crazy place Texas can be. Texas is a strange land. it contains every weird religion known to mankind. Even the seculars are weird. And i mean this is a nice way, of course. I’ve lived in Texas for years and am familiar with it. Texans are weird, and mostly they are proud of being weird. it appears appropros that the LDS decided to move there after being forced out of Utah and Arizona.
 
lovesMary said:
So tell me why the government is suddenly so appalled that men are having sex with more than one woman, or that underage girls are having sex? Isn’t this the same government that hands out condoms in the highschools?
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They are appalled at the institutionalized abuse of children. The DNA testing is being done for one purpose, to determine the age of the mother and the age of the father at the time the child was conceived. If an adult was having sex with a minor, this is called rape. And there is precedence for this, as a polygamous man in Utah was sent to prison not that long ago for sexual abuse of a minor. The proof of this abuse was the children of his 13 year old “bride”.

The leader of this cult is in prison today, for arranging these so-called marriages. In fact, what he was doing, was assigning out property. And the property was under-age girls.

These parents know exactly who the mother and who the father is. It is ridiculous for them to claim that they don’t. In this cult a girl is assigned to man, and have his children and his children only. Unless the man does something where the cult throws him out. Then she will become the property of another man and possibly have his children. But she knows exactly who the father is, and so does he.

They are hiding facts because this is what the people in this cult do. It is ingrained in them from birth that they should trust no one outside of their cult and never, ever, give information regarding their illegal polygamous and child-rape relationships. This includes not stating to an outsider who your parents are.
 
these women and children are “assigned” to men and reassigned if/when the man falls out of favor or if a higher ranking priesthood leader directs. this is in accordance with what brigham young taught.

this is NOT a culture clash or “preferable to fornication/adultery” as there is no mutual love, attraction or even free agency.

the government did NOT overstep it’s bounds as all of these things are illegal.

it is very telling to see all the mormons so aggressively defending the polygamists. it shows their position on the law, government, polygamy and even the value of women.

the beliefs and practices of the FLDS are disgusting and illegal. it is no surprise that they get away with this in utah and arizona. I am glad that Texas is doing something about it.
 
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