Finally, a voice of reason in the wilderness… Given probable cause, which in this case exists, the state is compelled to act (investigate and proceed accordingly) to protect the wellbeing of its citizens (i.e., the children). The ramifications of failure to act could far outweigh any inconvenience caused by the investigation and the court has already taken that into consideration.That’s not what’s happening.
Children were being mistreated by authority figures in their community. The people of Texas wisely decided to temporarily remove the children while they investigate the matter. The courts will not hold the children indefinitely without cause. They’re simply erring on the side of caution for now, which is wise and prudent.
The courts will not allow the state to indoctrinate any of the children on religious matters. Ours is a secular society. There is freedom of conscience in the United States. The children are free to remain fundamentalists. They’re simply not allowed to indulge in sexual activity with adults. Those children which have not been abused will be returned to the custody of their parents shortly.
Everyone has the right to a childhood free of mistreatment and abuse by adults. The State is forced to take extreme action when suspicions like these arise. The alternative is abandoning American children to physical and psychological harm.
You’re probably right, they might only reform if they had to but it has been reported that the question of age is a question of indifference to the FLDS. In our culture, early marriages tend to fail and the younger the bride and groom are at the time of marriage, the more likely they are to fail and end in divorce. But if that is not happening in their culture maybe they have a point. Our culture is drenched with sex, especially in the media: tv and music. I know this varies from individual to individual but kids are pretty much very interested in sex from puberty on. In our culture, we are pretty much expected to either (Christian) control our burning lust until we’re married in 10 or so years or (worldly) give in whenever we feel it is “right”. There is some argument for an early marriage. Put that up against the matchmaking you see in Fiddler on the Roof and the arranged marriages (some very young) of Eastern cultures and the abuse arguement weakens.I have a couple of questions:
- Do you think they would be willing to introduce reforms? Even minor or moderate reforms would bring them more into the mainstream, which appears to be something they have purposely avoided.
- Regarding the “brainwashing” statement(s). Do you think the reactions that you have seen from the women fits the situation? I am sure their reaction at the time of the removal was somewhat different, but during news interviews, there is little to no emotion being displayed. Not to make light of the situation, but I have seen people get more upset in traffic that I have seen from these women.
Thank you for this post.I work in the legal field and live in the state of Texas. Do they have the right to investigate? Of course. The problem is they did not follow the letter of the law. And they are redefining the definition of a family and household. All kinds of rights are being and have been trampled on here.
Most people do not understand the law. I call it the dumbing down of America, the frog in the kettle approach. You may not agree with the law or like it but if not followed properly your rights are in serious danger.
This is akin to a neighborhood with a pedophile priest or Minister being raided, and every single child in that neighborhood removed. What most do not see is that this WILL BE a precedent setting case. Who is next? No matter what a persons belief system or lack of…all parents in America better be worried!
Even the states own witness testified that the children should be placed back with their mothers right away during the investigation, and that if placed in Foster Care it would do terrible damage. The CPS spokeswomen stated that the beliefs are harmful to children. Do you really want an agency to have the right to determine whose religious beliefs are harmful and whose are not?
It isn’t the first time. And also, the law enforcement in southern UT/northern AZ are mainly Mormon. And as you can see in this thread alone, Mormons defend this behavior.If they are mad because this group practices what it does why is this the first time in the last one hundred years or so they have decided to do it,
The age of marriage in the 1800’s for a woman was early twenties, for a man, mid-twenties.is it because our norms have changed or theirs. In the 1800’s when did the average american become a man or woman how old when they started a family?
Just in case, and to clarify, I have never been, and will never be a Mormon! LOLIt isn’t the first time. And also, the law enforcement in southern UT/northern AZ are mainly Mormon. And as you can see in this thread alone, Mormons defend this behavior.
I’ve been reading the LDS defense of these monsters on LDS forums. I also saw on Fox News an interview with the Utah Attorney General (a LDS of course). Shawn Hannity pressed him hard on why he didn’t take action in Utah like the Texas authorities did. He hemmed and hawed and actually made excuses for them!It isn’t the first time. And also, the law enforcement in southern UT/northern AZ are mainly Mormon. And as you can see in this thread alone, Mormons defend this behavior.
It is something I realized as a teen, at a gut level that was the driving force for me leaving Mormonism. I despise LDS polygamy and find the defense of it incomprehensible, for any reason.I’m so glad that this tragedy became public so that everyone can see how the true-believing LDS, to a man, agree with and defend the FLDS trading of women and little girls for sex. Not one of them can see that forcing a 13 year-old girl to have sex with a 50 year-old man under the guise of “spiritual wifery” is nothing more than child rape. It must be because LDS Mormonism is, at its core, the same as the FLDS Mormonism. They are kindred spirits.
Even I never realized how gravely sick Mormonism truly is until just now.
Paul
How can they redefine the definition of family or household when each kid has 10 mothers?I work in the legal field and live in the state of Texas. Do they have the right to investigate? Of course. The problem is they did not follow the letter of the law. And they are redefining the definition of a family and household. All kinds of rights are being and have been trampled on here.
Most people do not understand the law. I call it the dumbing down of America, the frog in the kettle approach. You may not agree with the law or like it but if not followed properly your rights are in serious danger.
This is akin to a neighborhood with a pedophile priest or Minister being raided, and every single child in that neighborhood removed. What most do not see is that this WILL BE a precedent setting case. Who is next? No matter what a persons belief system or lack of…all parents in America better be worried!
Even the states own witness testified that the children should be placed back with their mothers right away during the investigation, and that if placed in Foster Care it would do terrible damage. The CPS spokeswomen stated that the beliefs are harmful to children. Do you really want an agency to have the right to determine whose religious beliefs are harmful and whose are not?
Most of your comments I will not even dignify with a response. And I will not jeopardize my job over the likes of you. And for your information even the state of Texas and quite a few law professors have stated that this case is unprecedented.How can they redefine the definition of family or household when each kid has 10 mothers?
Your comparasin to a pedophile priest or minister living in a regular neighborhood, etc. is hardly realistic. How is removing all children in an abusive household for their protection any different than removing these? I’ll tell you how…it is nothing but numbers. All 400+ of those children deserve the same protections.
Further, your statement “all parents in America better be worried!” is nothing more than an alarmist statement of paranoia. Next we’ll hear that there is some huge conspiracy involving JFK in some secret lab planning all of this.
I have no doubt that you live in Texas, however, I have my doubts about your legal expertise. It is obvious that you are not an attorney, or you would have been more than happy to share that with us.
If all of this is so precedent setting, as you assume that it is, then the judge in this case is doing exactly as she should. Proceeding cautiously and judiciously, and with the best interest of the children foremost in her decisions. The DNA testing will help establish “standing”. “In the common law, and under many statutes, standing or locus standi is the ability of a party to demonstrate to the court sufficient connection to support that party’s participation in the case.” quoted from wikipedia. This would fall under “defining family”, not “redefining family”.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
In this case, unprecedented merely means it has never happened before.Most of your comments I will not even dignify with a response. And I will not jeopardize my job over the likes of you. And for your information even the state of Texas and quite a few law professors have stated that this case is unprecedented.
Here is an article and a quote from a law professor:
QUOTE:
It’s an incredible precedent-setting situation, particularly since the last big raid like this was 50 years ago. And that all collapsed legally. The law is a lot more complicated now, and the rights of parents are significantly more protected
Actually, a pedophile is sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. Statutory rape is a completely different thing.A girl in high school is acting of her own accord, usually with a boy of her own age. And if an adult man were to target a high school girls for sexual relations we’d all call him what he is, a pedophile.
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This isn’t the only thread on this subject.The women posting here seem to be mostly concerned with the women. How willingly they enter into these marriages. Of course, that’s a legitimate question as they don’t seem to have much of an alternative. But what about the young men? Does no one care about the young men? The “lost boys”?
A 1970’s musical based on stories from the 1800’s weakens the abuse argument???Put that up against the matchmaking you see in Fiddler on the Roof and the arranged marriages (some very young) of Eastern cultures and the abuse arguement weakens.
also, we were wondering how these flds sectarians get converts. Do they send out missionaries the way the Utah mainline mormans do? we decided they probably don’t. Judging from the very odd language accents the ladies in the Fox interviews had, this is a very ingrown group of people, apparently with a distinctive dilect of English. They appeared to grope for common words to express themselves, but were unable to find them, and so used the same few words over and over again, and all the ladies had the same accent.Fourth, and in my mind, the most important issue here - is the incest. You are talking about, maybe, four to six families. Inner-marriage and inner-family sex is what is the most horrific of these issues… Children are being born on that ranch & in southern Utah and Northern Arizona missing entire PARTS of their brain. THIS is what disgusts me the most…