Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[grandfather]

Personally, I would side with the government. How loud would you be screaming if the caller was for real, and the government did nothing about it?

 

[grandfather]

these women and children are “assigned” to men and reassigned if/when the man falls out of favor or if a higher ranking priesthood leader directs. this is in accordance with what brigham young taught.

the beliefs and practices of the FLDS are disgusting and illegal. it is no surprise that they get away with this in utah and arizona. I am glad that Texas is doing something about it.

The women may be assigned to the men. It may be a crazy sicko cult. The women are not complaining about their treatment. They are complaining about the authorities who interfere in their lives. They want to be there. If their behavior is illegal then charge individuals with individual crimes. Let their be trials. You can’t justifiably sieze 400 kids over a phone call that was made by someone who complained she was raped and abused in a place asking for help, when the caller was in another state. If I made a phoney 911 call and said you were holding me prisoner in your home and your home was raided and children taken away and the state kept the kids after they found out the call was a fraud, because you were a tax cheat and were living with your boyfriend, this sounds right to you?

 

[lovesMary]

I thought that boy from Cuba belonged with his father.The mother was fleeing the country against the father’s will, something that by American law is illegal.

 

[skiswife]

also, we were wondering how these flds sectarians get converts. Do they send out missionaries the way the Utah mainline mormans do? we decided they probably don’t. Judging from the very odd language accents the ladies in the Fox interviews had, this is a very ingrown group of people, apparently with a distinctive dilect of English. They appeared to grope for common words to express themselves, but were unable to find them, and so used the same few words over and over again, and all the ladies had the same accent.

so most likely they are inbreeding like crazy. Making huge numbers of babies with almost everyone blood related. I imagine that this thing, once the details become known, is going to be a lot weirder than we now realize.

No, the FLDS members do not recruit like the mainstream Mormons do. Theirs is a very secluded group of people, who shun 99.999% of outsiders. It is exceedingly rare for any new blood to enter into the community. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are only four or five family surnames within the AZ/UT FLDS. Those names have not changed for a century… The older men certainly want no fresh “male” blood - takes away from the Harem potential (hence the “lost boys” of the FLDS). If there are new “recruits”, they are young, impressionable women, traded from another FLDS group or actually, lured from the mainstream LDS religion…

As for an education - I do know that their education system is rudimentary, at best… And, you have to remember that the ones teaching those children have no formal education themselves. (I am not bashing home-schooling. Home-Schooling, these days, tends to have text books published *after *the early 1900s or even earlier.) You speak correctly, when you state that their language patterns and forms of self-expression seem odd; But, I wonder if their communication would have been hard to understand some 100 years ago… (And I won’t even go into the downright lies these people are taught to believe as gospel… Warren Jeffs was President of the United States… indeed…)

The ranch down in Texas was actually built as a refuge for the folks from the AZ/Utah border. The plan was to, eventually, move everyone down to Texas, where they could live a life of complete and total separation from society - walled in as this “compound” is… (And, don’t forget the whole “running from the law” part of it…)

When Arizonans who knew about the polygamist sects heard about the move to Texas, there were two related schools of thought - 1) Warren Jeffs was planning to cull “the best” from Hilldale & Colorado City, to escape the law & start his own 2) Branch Dividian type complex. Arizonans were also pretty sure the Texans wouldn’t stand for it for very long… Texas already had one Branch Dividian mess - they were going to be proactive on this one.

Do not, for a moment, believe that those folks don’t have weapons stored somewhere. I am not pulling a Bush/Saddam here, but for Jeffs to preach that the End Days were coming & that this group would be the only ones that would survive… How were they planning to stave off Armageddon? With walls & pitchforks? I doubt it… That’s going to be an interesting discovery…

(And, I don’t see anyone talking about it on this thread - but they HAVE found the woman who made the originating call… And, they arrested her. She lives in Colorado City &, as far as I can tell - well, the woman is African American or possibly African Latina American… Either way - there is NO way she is part of this FLDS group…)

 

[RebeccaJ]

The women may be assigned to the men. It may be a crazy sicko cult. The women are not complaining about their treatment

Of course they aren’t, to complain is to speak against God Himself. Speaking against the authority means exactly that, and the result of not having absolute obedience is excommunication from the religion. In this cult excommunication means removal from your home, your family, and the community.

A very fearful prospect, as, this means leaving your children behind and then what? A girl’s education ends at the 8th grade and these women have no skills whatsoever to survive outside of their cult.

These people own nothing, everything is owned by their “church”. When anyone in this group is kicked out, they have absolutely nothing.

You can’t justifiably sieze 400 kids over a phone call that was made by someone who complained she was raped and abused in a place asking for help, when the caller was in another state. If I made a phoney 911 call and said you were holding me prisoner in your home and your home was raided and children taken away and the state kept the kids after they found out the call was a fraud, because you were a tax cheat and were living with your boyfriend, this sounds right to you?

You don’t know what happened. The Texas law enforcement had an informant within this group for years.

And yes, a child’s call for help should be acted on. It is the law that there is probable cause.

The police show up and don’t find the person who made a phone call, but they find evidence of other abuses in your home. Yes, they are going to act on that. It isn’t like the police are going to say, oh, there is evidence that this other kid is in danger, but it isn’t the one who made the phone call. Have a nice day!

 

[FCEGM]

I thought that boy from Cuba belonged with his father.The mother was fleeing the country against the father’s will, something that by American law is illegal.

The father was also planning on coming to America, but the changing circumstances allowed him to become a dupe for Castro.

 

[tbuley]

And millions of other welfare recipients who live grossly immoral lives. So stop paying the the assistance. Lock individual people up for committing individual crimes of fraud. Suppose your parish was raided at Mass tomorrow and everyone was hauled off and all the kids were put in foster care, because a number of parishoners were welfare cheats, or committed any other crime, used drugs, ran a ring that smuggled immigrants across the border…

This is a good point I have heard a lot of emotional rancor about how awful these people are with the welfare example. How quick we are to throw the first stone.

 

[Jerusha]

This is a good point I have heard a lot of emotional rancor about how awful these people are with the welfare example. How quick we are to throw the first stone.

Welfare fraud is definitely the most likely criminal offense that can be charged. These women, according to my understanding, have been going in and getting “food stamps” for themselves and {their} children, when the welfare workers didn’t even know if the children were theirs. The biological fathers were not being held financially responsible for their children.

Who knows by what means they had been trying to enrich the gene pool??

 

[grandfather]

Welfare fraud is definitely the most likely criminal offense that can be charged. These women, according to my understanding, have been going in and getting “food stamps” for themselves and {their} children, when the welfare workers didn’t even know if the children were theirs. The biological fathers were not being held financially responsible for their children.

Who knows by what means they had been trying to enrich the gene pool??

You can’t take 400 kids from their families, because according to someone’s understanding, or something you heard about that says someone committed welfare or foodstamp fraud. If an individual committed fraud they should be charged with a crime. If they are proven guilty they should be sentenced. There has to be due process. There has been no due process in this raid. The police raided the place over a false call and they did not find evidence of abuse as alleged. They simply siezed all the kids. No one has been arrested or charged with a crime. Doesn’t anyone get that? Imagine if you and your family were all rounded up and jailed and held for a week or so and had not been charged with a crime.

On just about every college campus in this country on just about every Friday and Saturday night there will be crimes committed. There will be underage drinking, public intoxication, illegal drug use, casual sex, a rape or two, and driving under the influence. These educational institutions obviously make no attempt to prevent these crimes. The police show up once in awhile and make an arrest. These campuses should all be raided and shut down. There should be mass arrests and the brainwashed students should be held for a couple of weeks without being charged with anything, just because some of their fellow students are suspected of lying on their financial aide applications. I heard somewhere some students lie on their financial aide. Round em up. Go onto the campuses with armored cars and swat teams and empty out those dorms and frat houses.

 

[grandfather]

Furthermore, I have heard that there is sexual abuse of minors in both halls of congress. Both sides of capital hill should be raided. There is all kinds of financial malfeasance going on all the time there. The congressional offices should be raided and everything inside seized looking for the evidence. All senators and congressmen should be sent to the nearest sports arena to be held while this is sorted out. Foodstamp fraud is chicken feed. These guys are ripping off billions and have been having sex with their underage pages for decades. Time to put a stop to it. Round em all up. Why doesn’t someone make a phone call and pretend to be a young congressional page and get the ball rolling? Don’t worry about due process, grand juries, formal charges, evidence of a crime. I heard this was going on so go for it.

 

[tbuley]

I think the biggest problem could end out being that if Texas messes up with legal requirements and evidence gets thrown out, the backlash in lawsuits could cause the authorities to not act in the future when needed to.

 

[Chris-WA]

I’ve been reading the LDS defense of these monsters on LDS forums. I also saw on Fox News an interview with the Utah Attorney General (a LDS of course). Shawn Hannity pressed him hard on why he didn’t take action in Utah like the Texas authorities did. He hemmed and hawed and actually made excuses for them!

I’m so glad that this tragedy became public so that everyone can see how the true-believing LDS, to a man, agree with and defend the FLDS trading of women and little girls for sex. Not one of them can see that forcing a 13 year-old girl to have sex with a 50 year-old man under the guise of “spiritual wifery” is nothing more than child rape. It must be because LDS Mormonism is, at its core, the same as the FLDS Mormonism. They are kindred spirits.

Even I never realized how gravely sick Mormonism truly is until just now.

Paul

The FLDS must be a continual source of embarrassment for the LDS. Every time the FLDS get into the news, the LDS have to publicly declare that LDS no longer practice polygamy. I think the LDS church PA office must have sent memos to all the news agencies asking them to please differentiate between the FLDS and the LDS because the newsies always seem to throw in a line that the LDS no longer practice polygamy. But no matter how much the LDS try to distance themselves from the polygamous FLDS, it won’t work because the LDS cannot bring themselves to condemn polygamy altogether. The LDS are between a rock and a hard place. They don’t want to be associated with the FLDS, but they can’t condemn polygamy either because to do so would admit Joseph Smith was a false prophet and thus destroy the foundation of their church.

 

[grandfather]

The FLDS must be a continual source of embarrassment for the LDS. Every time the FLDS get into the news, the LDS have to publicly declare that LDS no longer practice polygamy. I think the LDS church PA office must have sent memos to all the news agencies asking them to please differentiate between the FLDS and the LDS because the newsies always seem to throw in a line that the LDS no longer practice polygamy. But no matter how much the LDS try to distance themselves from the polygamous FLDS, it won’t work because the LDS cannot bring themselves to condemn polygamy altogether. The LDS are between a rock and a hard place. They don’t want to be associated with the FLDS, but they can’t condemn polygamy either because to do so would admit Joseph Smith was a false prophet and thus destroy the foundation of their church.

The LDS does not see it this way. In their religion they believe their current prophet can over rule a teaching of a former prophet. They have changed the Book of Mormon several times. So they might say polygamy was essential to their religion at one time, in order to be saved, and forbid it later on. If the FLDS were to disappear it is inevitable that polygamy would resurface, because in every religion there is a phenomenon of revival or renewal and followers try to get back to their original beliefs. Similarly, there will always be a group within Islam that calls for jihad and bloodshed.

 

[Chris-WA]

The LDS does not see it this way. In their religion they believe their current prophet can over rule a teaching of a former prophet. They have changed the Book of Mormon several times. So they might say polygamy was essential to their religion at one time, in order to be saved, and forbid it later on. If the FLDS were to disappear it is inevitable that polygamy would resurface, because in every religion there is a phenomenon of revival or renewal and followers try to get back to their original beliefs. Similarly, there will always be a group within Islam that calls for jihad and bloodshed.

I believe you missed the point of my post, which is this–the LDS are embarrassed by polygamy. It’s a wound that won’t go away. They don’t like to talk about it with non-members, and they are constantly trying to distance themselves from it whenever it come up in the news. Unfortunately for them, the FLDS keep the polygamy issue on the forefront. The FLDS practice is like a window into LDS history, and it’s not something the LDS want on the front page and on TV. I understand your point about a current prophet trumping a former one, which is true, but my point is that the polygamy issue will never go away for the LDS (even though they offcially ended it in 1890) as long as they uphold Section 132 in the D&C as divinely inspired. But they can’t reject Section 132 without rejecting Joseph Smith, so therein lies the conundrum.

 

[lovesMary]

I believe you missed the point of my post, which is this–the LDS are embarrassed by polygamy. It’s a wound that won’t go away. They don’t like to talk about it with non-members, and they are constantly trying to distance themselves from it whenever it come up in the news. Unfortunately for them, the FLDS keep the polygamy issue on the forefront. The FLDS practice is like a window into LDS history, and it’s not something the LDS want on the front page and on TV. I understand your point about a current prophet trumping a former one, which is true, but my point is that the polygamy issue will never go away for the LDS (even though they offcially ended it in 1890) as long as they uphold Section 132 in the D&C as divinely inspired. But they can’t reject Section 132 without rejecting Joseph Smith, so therein lies the conundrum.

We Catholics feel the same embarrassment about things like the priest scandal.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We Catholics feel the same embarrassment about things like the priest scandal.

Nothing about the priest scandal is scriptural, anywhere. Quite the opposite.

Polygamy is a mormon scripture, both LDS and FLDS. Not just the relating of other people, practicing it thousands of years ago. Their scriptures command it, as a divine institution of God, and a requirement to godhood. The LDS scriptures say the commandment to actually practice polygamy is suspended. The FLDS do not believe this. That is the only difference.

What you see in the FLDS is the mormon scriptural belief put into practice. The FLDS and LDS share this belief.

The priests who abused children were not practicing anything scriptural, and not one Catholic, or Christian, believes they were.

 

[majick275]

You can’t take 400 kids from their families, because according to someone’s understanding, or something you heard about that says someone committed welfare or foodstamp fraud. If an individual committed fraud they should be charged with a crime. If they are proven guilty they should be sentenced. There has to be due process. There has been no due process in this raid. The police raided the place over a false call and they did not find evidence of abuse as alleged. They simply siezed all the kids. No one has been arrested or charged with a crime. Doesn’t anyone get that? Imagine if you and your family were all rounded up and jailed and held for a week or so and had not been charged with a crime.

On just about every college campus in this country on just about every Friday and Saturday night there will be crimes committed. There will be underage drinking, public intoxication, illegal drug use, casual sex, a rape or two, and driving under the influence. These educational institutions obviously make no attempt to prevent these crimes. The police show up once in awhile and make an arrest. These campuses should all be raided and shut down. There should be mass arrests and the brainwashed students should be held for a couple of weeks without being charged with anything, just because some of their fellow students are suspected of lying on their financial aide applications. I heard somewhere some students lie on their financial aide. Round em up. Go onto the campuses with armored cars and swat teams and empty out those dorms and frat houses.

we don’t know how many times these kids have ALREADY been taken form their families. the assignment and reassignments have mixed them all up. the whole move to texas started with jeffs picking out who he wanted and moving them out there to have a special cherry picked core facility for his “kingdom”. you are quick to ignore the rights of everyone involved since they “haven’t complained”. there is a need now to do DNA testing just to find out whose kid is whose since everyone there is so secretive and lying all the time. your comparisons of welfare mothers and college campuses are tu quoqes at best and don’t take into consideration the effects of abused authority, lack of freedom and incredible pressures that are brought to bear over multiple generations here so that in the end few of the victims are capable of even realizing they are victims.

This is wrong and something needs to be done. Mormon controlled states wouldn’t do anything and we can sure see why. let’s see if Texas can pull this off now and put an end to this tragedy.

 

[zaffiroborant]

We Catholics feel the same embarrassment about things like the priest scandal.

Well feeling “embarrassment” is one thing, the reason for embarrassment is another.

While it is embarrassing to have your leaders behave immorally it is a whole new ball game to have your leaders TEACH IMMORALITY as moral.

The Catholic Church never taught pedophilia, malfeasance or any of the host of wrongs associated with the scandal as something God could on a whim decide were acceptable. The LDS on the other hand **DO TEACH **that polygyny is acceptable to God.

This is the source of their embarrassment, western civilization has come to the consensus that polygyny/polygamy is wrong, LDS doctrine and history says otherwise. The polgyny aspect of the FLDS leaves little room for them and they are embarrassed.

 

[RebeccaJ]

A teenage girl talks of FLDS wedding:

“**Fear of hell: **The reluctance of Mary and the other women to speak out about these arranged pairings mystified some jury members.
“Why is it here in court in the first place if there’s not a complaint by one of the people?” one juror asked.
Mary tried to help the jury understand the women’s silence. “We were taught that we would go to hell” for speaking out, she said. “After I got away from that religion, I still felt like I would be damned if I 'spoke out” because that’s just how I was raised.”
So ingrained is that belief that Mary wavered after her grand jury appearance. She failed to show up at Barlow’s original trial, which was set for March 13. Arizona authorities issued a subpoena for Mary, who was picked up days later."

 

[lovesMary]

Well feeling “embarrassment” is one thing, the reason for embarrassment is another.

While it is embarrassing to have your leaders behave immorally it is a whole new ball game to have your leaders TEACH IMMORALITY as moral.

The Catholic Church never taught pedophilia, malfeasance or any of the host of wrongs associated with the scandal as something God could on a whim decide were acceptable. The LDS on the other hand **DO TEACH **that polygyny is acceptable to God.

This is the source of their embarrassment, western civilization has come to the consensus that polygyny/polygamy is wrong, LDS doctrine and history says otherwise. The polgyny aspect of the FLDS leaves little room for them and they are embarrassed.

I hate to split hairs here, but our Old Testament also supports polygamy and never is there a definate point in time in the Bible where God says “Thou shalt only have one wife!”. If I’m not mistaken, Jesus never clearly addresses polygamy, although admittingly he refers to marriage in terms of one wife/one husband.

So, if a sect is in entrenched in Scripture, probably some basis could be argued in support of polygamy. It’s my understanding that it gradually died out over time.

I’m not saying I support it at all, but bringing up a debatable point.