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Jerusha
Guest
You equate the Native American experience with the LDS experience? :ehh:
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I find it troublesome that some are making the real abusers out to be victims here. And there is continued diversion away from the real issue. So just as Fatima has said, the authorities found GIRL CHILDREN that were PREGNANT. This is prima facie evidence of RAPE.
This is not about polygamy, although polygamy is against the law.
This is not about poor “abused” middle aged men that the apologists here are mourning over.
This is not about an allegedly “phony call” ~ although no one has produced any evidence that it was phony ~ there was probable cause and more evidence of crime was immediately found.
This is not about how weird these people are ~ although they ARE weird by most modern standards. It’s not even about how BRAINWASHED the women appear when interviewed on TV.
THIS IS ABOUT THE RAPE OF CHILDREN.
I do not understand why anyone would believe that raping children is OK. Those of you who continue to make excuses for these child predators ~ would you let them come in contact with YOUR 14 year old daughter or granddaughter?
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why_me
Guest
I gave the mormon understanding and nothing more. I think that I made a good post as to why god may have found all other churches an abomination. If one looks at the history of christianity, Dawkins the atheist makes a good point about christian brutality. Such brutality as described by dawkins in his book the God Delusion is accurate. And it is an abomination.BTW whyme, I see your posts on MADB where the mormons are discussing how the creeds are such an abomination. if there was any doubt about you being a anticatholic mormon you have certainly cleared that up..
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RebeccaJ
Guest
flds leaders say: “This isn’t rape, it is a part of our religion to raise girls for our sexual use, at the age that we determine. Not you, or the state, but us men. Because it’s our religion. Our girls don’t complain about being married off to their uncles, because they’ve been taught better. They know their purpose in life because we have told them what it is. They are good and sweet, just the way we like them.”
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MelanieAnne
Guest
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Incredible why me, you are in a thread where you are defending RAPE and you have the cajones to role out atheism in support of Christianity being an abomination. I feel very sad for you.
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ibkc
Guest
Funny that you capitalize “Dawkins” but not such words as “god” and “christianity.”
I also wonder why you feel you need to inform other Mormons of the Mormon understanding. If you are Catholic as you say, shouldn’t you be informing Mormons of the Catholic understanding?
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majick275
Guest
you continue to make my point for me. anyway, mormon scripture specifically calls the CREEDS abominations, not sects or denominations or christendom in general but the creeds. you seem okay with that and continue to attack the catholic church and not only defend the LDS church but even the FLDS since now you are a big fan of polygamy.
The creeds are good. they serve as the synopsis of Christian doctrine. they remind us of who we worship and what that means.
Polygamy is evil. mormon polygamy caused problems for all. FLDS polygamy is even worse. men have their wives and children “reassigned” to someone else with no consideration for their rights or the wives rights or the best interests of the children. you seem to want to hang the state for intervening out of some misguided sense of “loyalty in principle” to the leaders of this organization who are the only ones who have been able to exercise informed free will in this compound. just like back in the JS and BY days. how you must long for those times.
the true abomination in the sight of God is what mormons are doing under the claim that God commands it.
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Chuck_H
Guest
I think Rebecca’s tongue was firmly in her cheek as she typed that. A bit of justified sarcasm.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I wouldn’t describe it that way. But let’s let Rebecca answer for herself. It’s a pretty accurate description of what goes on in that cult.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
No, it was not sarcasm. It is what I see.
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Jerusha
Guest
Your statement was sort of like if I were to state that because of my being 1/4 German, Jews hate me, and besides, the European holocaust did not happen.
Perhaps I need to be more specific here, although this is off-topic.
When the Mormons moved to the Nauvoo area, a man by the name of Isaac Galland used forged quit-claim deeds to sell Sac and Fox land (there was a reservation across the river in Iowa, at one time covering the entire southeastern tip of Iowa territory) to the Mormons. When the Natives (of several tribes) went to JS to complain, JS told them that they bought the land fair and square, and anyone who buys something that has been stolen retains possession of it. He told them that they could become Mormons and get land back. So some did. When their wives were propositioned by Mormon leaders, the women refused, and I would not be surprised if some of their relatives were killed as a result.
According to the Autobiography of BlackHawk, Sauk tradition was to paint one’s face black when in mourning.
ldsmag.com/churchhistory/060627joseph.html
John Hay, later secretary of state under Lincoln and other presidents, reported that one of the men from the “mob”, who had been injured in the attack, and was not brought up for trial, wore moccasins, not boots. The community appeared to be very protective of him.
So , some of those people who participated in the war in the area Nauvoo against the Mormons were Natives, and were well justified in their actions. It was primarily Natives who were victims of LDS-perpetrated crimes in the Nauvoo area. As Thomas Jefferson so ruefully noted, it was nearly impossible to get a conviction for white crimes against Natives.
***If you wish, I can start a new thread about LDS crimes in the west. Unless this is only a beginning to your own independent research. ***
Sorry to hit to the jugular on this, but I am sick and tired of LDS lies.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Suggested reading:
Utah Attorney General’s Office and Arizona Attorney General’s Office. The Primer, Helping Victims of Domestic Violence and Child Abuse in Polygamous Communities
*
“Perpetrators from fundamentalist communities often use the same justifications for incest as
those in mainstream society, such as the view that a father has the right to initiate his daughter
to sex, or that he owns his wife and children and can do whatever he wants with them. Religion
is also used to justify and rationalize incest or sexual abuse, and often derives from the
perpetrator’s distorted and self-important perception of his presumed priesthood authority. One
man claimed what he was doing was right because God conceived Jesus through his daughter
Mary. Additionally, some families or groups believe that first cousin marriages are not
considered incest.”
**
Parallels between Domestic Violence Victims and Former** ***Polygamous Members ***
Dr. Beall has spent much of his professional career working with women who have been victims
of domestic violence. He notes that there are many parallels between his clinical observations of
victims of domestic violence and clients who have lived in polygamous conditions.4 What follows
are some of the more salient parallels:
Utah Attorney General’s Office and Arizona Attorney General’s Office. The Primer, Helping Victims of Domestic Violence and Child Abuse in Polygamous Communities
*
“Perpetrators from fundamentalist communities often use the same justifications for incest as
those in mainstream society, such as the view that a father has the right to initiate his daughter
to sex, or that he owns his wife and children and can do whatever he wants with them. Religion
is also used to justify and rationalize incest or sexual abuse, and often derives from the
perpetrator’s distorted and self-important perception of his presumed priesthood authority. One
man claimed what he was doing was right because God conceived Jesus through his daughter
Mary. Additionally, some families or groups believe that first cousin marriages are not
considered incest.”
**
Parallels between Domestic Violence Victims and Former** ***Polygamous Members ***
Dr. Beall has spent much of his professional career working with women who have been victims
of domestic violence. He notes that there are many parallels between his clinical observations of
victims of domestic violence and clients who have lived in polygamous conditions.4 What follows
are some of the more salient parallels:
- Blames herself for her batterer’s behavior and often makes excuses for him.
- Learned hopefulness: the woman believes he will stop the abuse and the relationship
will get better. - Minimizes or blocks out the most dangerous parts of the assaults.
- Believes that she controls his assaults by her behavior and thus constantly tracks his
moods in her head; feels lost and in danger if she has no contact with him. - Post Traumatic Stress Disorder symptoms are common when she is separated from her
batterer. These symptoms may include (1) exaggerated startle response; (2) intrusive
recollections of the abuse; (3) recurrent distressing dreams; (4) feeling as if the abuse is
recurring during recollections; (5) sensory cues: intense psychological distress to stimuli
reminiscent of abuse encounters; (6) physiological reactivity when exposed to batterer;
(7) avoidance of stimuli about the abuse: thoughts, feelings, and conversations; (8)
inability to recall specific parts of the abuse; (9) feeling detached from others; (10)
restricted range of affect; (11) sense of a foreshadowed or hopeless future; (12) difficulty
sleeping; (13) irritability; and (14) hyper-vigilance. - Is economically dependent on her batterer regardless of income level due to lack of
access to the family income. - Is isolated from friends and family.
- Has been manipulated by power and control tactics used by the abuser (i.e., emotional
abuse). - Is misunderstood by outside observers and expects people to blame and judge her,
resulting in hypersensitivity to subtle blaming statements. - Is more likely to be seriously injured or murdered when she is separated from the
batterer. - Frequently comes from a childhood with domestic violence history.
- Doesn’t trust the “system”: it may have treated her badly in the past.
- **Has been placed in double binds, resulting in a hesitancy to make decisions, insecurity,
and low self-esteem. ** - Is most likely to get hit for the first time when pregnant or on her wedding day.
- Is frequently sexually abused by her batterer.
- Shows guilt, ambivalence, and/or fear over living conditions.
- Feels isolated and untrusting of others, despite involvement in the community.
- Has a poor self-concept (this may not have been true before the relationship).
- Feels angry, embarrassed, and ashamed.
- Is fearful of being insane.
- Has learned to feel helpless and feels powerless.
- Has unexplained injuries that may go untreated. *
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Jerusha
Guest
Rebecca, that is a wonderful post. I can identify with that information so well. I think I just broke loose from the double-bind. 
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I think it is important to also understand how this document came about.
It is not by coincidence that it is put out simultaneously by the Arizona and Utah State Attorney General Offices. These two offices are who have been dealing with the FLDS, in their original locations of Hilldale, Utah and Colorado City (formerly Short Creek), Arizona.
These towns straddle the Utah/Arizona border, and under the leadership of their believed prophet Warren Jeffs, were subject to all sorts of law breaking and subsequent AG intervention.
The life of the FLDS is communal, the individuals own nothing, and everything is controlled by the UEP. The States of Utah/Arizona took control of the UEP after it was shown that the people who were in control of it (Jeffs and his small circle of men) were not protecting it from fraud.
At the same time, it was found that their schools were defrauding the community (UEP) and both States.
At which point Jeffs determined which men of the community were loyal to him, and which were not. He took the wives and children of the those deemed not loyal and reassigned them to the men that he deemed loyal.
Jeffs then chose from this group of loyal men, the families that would be moved to Texas to start a new community. These families abandoned the homes, property and businesses (all which belonged to the UEP, now under the control of the States of Utah/Arizona) and built the new community in Texas. As the community built up, the loyal group of people in Utah and Arizona have been moving to Texas.
The AG offices of Arizona and Utah have been dealing with this group of people for over a hundred years. For the majority of that time they ignored them. But as things got weird in the two towns under Jeffs, people started leaving, and going to law enforcement to report what was going on.
This includes the fraud, the family reassignments, spouse and child abuse. As a few women, with their children, started to flee these communities, and Jeffs kicked out teenage boys, both states built an expertise in dealing with the abuse that comes from this community.
So this paranoia over, “OH my God, they’re trampling all over their religious rights and Catholics are next, or Baptists, or most likely MORMONS”, is unfounded. Under Jeffs this group has morphed into a criminal ring that includes fraud and abuse, and they have become expert at throwing out the “religious prejudice” card.
The State of Texas is doing what they should be doing.
It is not by coincidence that it is put out simultaneously by the Arizona and Utah State Attorney General Offices. These two offices are who have been dealing with the FLDS, in their original locations of Hilldale, Utah and Colorado City (formerly Short Creek), Arizona.
These towns straddle the Utah/Arizona border, and under the leadership of their believed prophet Warren Jeffs, were subject to all sorts of law breaking and subsequent AG intervention.
The life of the FLDS is communal, the individuals own nothing, and everything is controlled by the UEP. The States of Utah/Arizona took control of the UEP after it was shown that the people who were in control of it (Jeffs and his small circle of men) were not protecting it from fraud.
At the same time, it was found that their schools were defrauding the community (UEP) and both States.
At which point Jeffs determined which men of the community were loyal to him, and which were not. He took the wives and children of the those deemed not loyal and reassigned them to the men that he deemed loyal.
Jeffs then chose from this group of loyal men, the families that would be moved to Texas to start a new community. These families abandoned the homes, property and businesses (all which belonged to the UEP, now under the control of the States of Utah/Arizona) and built the new community in Texas. As the community built up, the loyal group of people in Utah and Arizona have been moving to Texas.
The AG offices of Arizona and Utah have been dealing with this group of people for over a hundred years. For the majority of that time they ignored them. But as things got weird in the two towns under Jeffs, people started leaving, and going to law enforcement to report what was going on.
This includes the fraud, the family reassignments, spouse and child abuse. As a few women, with their children, started to flee these communities, and Jeffs kicked out teenage boys, both states built an expertise in dealing with the abuse that comes from this community.
So this paranoia over, “OH my God, they’re trampling all over their religious rights and Catholics are next, or Baptists, or most likely MORMONS”, is unfounded. Under Jeffs this group has morphed into a criminal ring that includes fraud and abuse, and they have become expert at throwing out the “religious prejudice” card.
The State of Texas is doing what they should be doing.
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LaMar
Guest
That was very well written Rebecca.
Due to my background it’s difficult to be objective. There is a legitimate claim of bigotry and oppression by the FLDS against my people, the regular Mormons in southern Utah.
However, this is not relevant to the case as it exists today. Few Mormons live in central Texas and there is no evidence that anyone is being harassed for religious reasons. Children have been taken for their own protection, while an investigation is ongoing, and the same process applies to anyone of any religion, or no religion, who is suspected of being involved in the mistreatment of children.
The state is not snatching children indefinitely. The authorities have to appear before the court and legitimize their seizure of the individuals. Those who are indicted for crimes will have a chance to present a defense. If the state has acted on bad information, it will be the judges who will see that the children are returned. For now, taking the children is the lesser of two potential wrongs and is the only choice the authorities have under the circumstances.
Due to my background it’s difficult to be objective. There is a legitimate claim of bigotry and oppression by the FLDS against my people, the regular Mormons in southern Utah.
However, this is not relevant to the case as it exists today. Few Mormons live in central Texas and there is no evidence that anyone is being harassed for religious reasons. Children have been taken for their own protection, while an investigation is ongoing, and the same process applies to anyone of any religion, or no religion, who is suspected of being involved in the mistreatment of children.
The state is not snatching children indefinitely. The authorities have to appear before the court and legitimize their seizure of the individuals. Those who are indicted for crimes will have a chance to present a defense. If the state has acted on bad information, it will be the judges who will see that the children are returned. For now, taking the children is the lesser of two potential wrongs and is the only choice the authorities have under the circumstances.
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LaMar
Guest
That’s a good point. Glad you’re reading Dawkins, by the way.
You need to quit taking nonsense about gold plates and crucifixions seriously. Concentrate on being a good and noble human being. This life is all we have. Forget about a heaven, which nobody has ever seen. Our world is here.
Mormonism, Catholicism, and all these other religious traditions are just that: traditions. They’re the way we pass civilization down to our offspring (the only “life eternal” that matters) and they provide a reasonable framework for charity, compassion, and other issues relevant to the real world. Use them for this purpose. Don’t be used by them for their purposes.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
So, onto DNA testing of these children.
Some of these children were reassigned from their biological fathers and assigned to one of Warren Jeffs loyal followers. DNA tests are going to show that for these children, the adult male they are living with is not their legal or biological father.
Add to this, the children and women are taught that to divulge information to outsiders, especially law enforcement, is sinful. The adults are not saying who the parents are, and the children aren’t saying, and in some cases have never had this taught to them. ie, they don’t know who their biological mother or father is.
Thus, the need for DNA testing because it is impossible to enforce parental rights, or prosecute parents for neglect/abuse, or ensure that a child is living in a healthy environment, if it cannot be determined who the legal parents/guardians are and who is legally responsible for their well being.
In the meantime, there is evidence for child abuse in this community, as a whole, and it is defined in TX State law that the DFPS can remove children from their environment if it is legally determined that they are in danger. Which, has been done.
What is outside of legalities here is that the women believe that they can remain with the children who have been legally removed from their custody. That the TX DFPS is allowing this is for the benefit of the children, not the mothers. This most likely will not last, as 100 children have been removed to foster care and the remaining 316 children will also be in foster care until the TX DFPS can sort out each individual case.
Some of these children were reassigned from their biological fathers and assigned to one of Warren Jeffs loyal followers. DNA tests are going to show that for these children, the adult male they are living with is not their legal or biological father.
Add to this, the children and women are taught that to divulge information to outsiders, especially law enforcement, is sinful. The adults are not saying who the parents are, and the children aren’t saying, and in some cases have never had this taught to them. ie, they don’t know who their biological mother or father is.
Thus, the need for DNA testing because it is impossible to enforce parental rights, or prosecute parents for neglect/abuse, or ensure that a child is living in a healthy environment, if it cannot be determined who the legal parents/guardians are and who is legally responsible for their well being.
In the meantime, there is evidence for child abuse in this community, as a whole, and it is defined in TX State law that the DFPS can remove children from their environment if it is legally determined that they are in danger. Which, has been done.
What is outside of legalities here is that the women believe that they can remain with the children who have been legally removed from their custody. That the TX DFPS is allowing this is for the benefit of the children, not the mothers. This most likely will not last, as 100 children have been removed to foster care and the remaining 316 children will also be in foster care until the TX DFPS can sort out each individual case.
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fatima1917
Guest
Charity, compassion, and helping your fellow man without a higher purpose only feeds the human ego. They must be tied to a higher purpose. Service of God.
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rmcmullan
Guest
You’ve done an outstanding job of demonizing the FLDS. To what purpose I am not sure, perhaps to rob them of their humanity.
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