Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[majick275]

That’s a good point. Glad you’re reading Dawkins, by the way.

You need to quit taking nonsense about gold plates and crucifixions seriously. Concentrate on being a good and noble human being. This life is all we have. Forget about a heaven, which nobody has ever seen. Our world is here.

Mormonism, Catholicism, and all these other religious traditions are just that: traditions. They’re the way we pass civilization down to our offspring (the only “life eternal” that matters) and they provide a reasonable framework for charity, compassion, and other issues relevant to the real world. Use them for this purpose. Don’t be used by them for their purposes.

if this life is all we get and there is no heaven then what purpose do we serve? why pass on civilization? how do we even define what is “noble” or “good”? what good is compassion or charity and how are they relevant in that case? if there is no God and death makes us worm food forever then it would seem that the laws of nature are all that matter. at best we get ringers “rational selfishness” and at worst survival of the fittest. in that scenario charity is foolish and compassion interferes with success. we should do what we want when and how we want and not let anyone get in our way.

 

[LaMar]

if this life is all we get and there is no heaven then what purpose do we serve? why pass on civilization? how do we even define what is “noble” or “good”? what good is compassion or charity and how are they relevant in that case? if there is no God and death makes us worm food forever then it would seem that the laws of nature are all that matter. at best we get ringers “rational selfishness” and at worst survival of the fittest. in that scenario charity is foolish and compassion interferes with success. we should do what we want when and how we want and not let anyone get in our way.

Majick I believe that many people need some idea of a divine punishment to keep them in line. I don’t believe that’s the case with either you or why me. I think you’re both very similar people, who would do the right thing without the threat of some nonexistent “outer darkness” or “lake of fire and brimstone” which doesn’t exist and never has.

Back to the topic, I think the FLDS is just another great example of the opium of the people in action. These people have degraded themselves to the point that they’ve lost their own basic human rights, in the name of some fairy tales made up 150 years ago.

I can only imagine what must happen to the honest father who gets to see his daughter “married” at the age of 12, and realizes that he can’t leave even if he wants to, as he has no education, money and the collective owns everything down to his toothbrush.

The fraud which is the FLDS is the fraud of religion writ large. It’s only a difference of degrees. Use religion in the service of humanity. Don’t enslave yourself to it.

 

[Jerusha]

You’ve done an outstanding job of demonizing the FLDS. To what purpose I am not sure, perhaps to rob them of their humanity.

Mormonism (in all its branches) has done an outstanding job of demonizing Natives. To what purpose, I’m not sure, perhaps to rob us of our humanity.

 

[Jerusha]

Back to the topic, I think the FLDS is just another great example of the opium of the people in action. These people have degraded themselves to the point that they’ve lost their own basic human rights, in the name of some fairy tales made up 150 years ago.

Use religion in the service of humanity. Don’t enslave yourself to it.

FLDS and LDS are drugs. Both of them. Lies included as part of the illnes.

 

[rmcmullan]

Mormonism (in all its branches) has done an outstanding job of demonizing Natives. To what purpose, I’m not sure, perhaps to rob us of our humanity.

Ah, is this the nub of it then? To also demonize the LDS? Welcome to the Catholic Forums. It seems that every thread end the same way…

 

[RebeccaJ]

You’ve done an outstanding job of demonizing the FLDS. To what purpose I am not sure, perhaps to rob them of their humanity.

Not demonizing, showing facts. There are other polygamist sects, and if you read the document I linked to you would see descriptions of them. Not all practice as the FLDS do, regarding marrying off under-age girls to older men, sometimes their own uncles or cousins.

Some live well within society, including obeying laws (other than polygamy).

Why you object to showing who this group is, where they came from, and their history, now that has to be wondered at…what purpose?

I am well aware that Mormons (LDS) do not practice polygamy, the Mormon church has not institutionalized sexual abuse of children. None of this has anything to do with the LDS church.

What I find unacceptable is defending abuse, under the guise of “religion”. What else should we defend, as long as it is “religion”?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ah, is this the nub of it then? To also demonize the LDS? Welcome to the Catholic Forums. It seems that every thread end the same way…

Seems to me that every thread ends in bashing Catholicism, or parts and pieces of it.

 

[majick275]

Majick I believe that many people need some idea of a divine punishment to keep them in line. I don’t believe that’s the case with either you or why me. I think you’re both very similar people, who would do the right thing without the threat of some nonexistent “outer darkness” or “lake of fire and brimstone” which doesn’t exist and never has.

Back to the topic, I think the FLDS is just another great example of the opium of the people in action. These people have degraded themselves to the point that they’ve lost their own basic human rights, in the name of some fairy tales made up 150 years ago.

I can only imagine what must happen to the honest father who gets to see his daughter “married” at the age of 12, and realizes that he can’t leave even if he wants to, as he has no education, money and the collective owns everything down to his toothbrush.

The fraud which is the FLDS is the fraud of religion writ large. It’s only a difference of degrees. Use religion in the service of humanity. Don’t enslave yourself to it.

i have to disagree. while i may not need threats to behave properly i do need moral guidance. i have to have some system of defining what is good and what is bad that i can view as valid. without faith in God that becomes problematic. you quickly get into situational ethics and moral relativism. combine that with basic human nature and i don’t see society holding together very well under atheistic or even secular humanist ideals. look at soviet union and communist china as examples.

 

[J_C]

Timothy Egan over at New York Times.com has written an article on the LDS and polygamy with reference to the FLDS:

egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/faith-of-our-fathers/

 

[why_me]

That’s a good point. Glad you’re reading Dawkins, by the way.

You need to quit taking nonsense about gold plates and crucifixions seriously. Concentrate on being a good and noble human being. This life is all we have. Forget about a heaven, which nobody has ever seen. Our world is here.

Mormonism, Catholicism, and all these other religious traditions are just that: traditions. They’re the way we pass civilization down to our offspring (the only “life eternal” that matters) and they provide a reasonable framework for charity, compassion, and other issues relevant to the real world. Use them for this purpose. Don’t be used by them for their purposes.

I read all points of view and I incorporate ideas into my own understandings. I can not agree with you about gold plates and crucifixions, however. Without a god, humans would be doomed. Dawkins in the paperback editions comments on the criticisms that have been leveled at him from other atheists. He makes a point but so do the other atheists.

My faith in humanity without a god principle is very limited. Humans will replace the heavenly god with materialistic idols, as is happening now.

 

[why_me]

Not demonizing, showing facts. There are other polygamist sects, and if you read the document I linked to you would see descriptions of them. Not all practice as the FLDS do, regarding marrying off under-age girls to older men,

What I find unacceptable is defending abuse, under the guise of “religion”. What else should we defend, as long as it is “religion”?

This is true. I gave a link to a polygamous family that seems to have a stable and loving family or families. The FLDS case however is not one of defense but one of following the law. The phone call was dubious and a lie. The case was built on a lie and thus, the case becomes suspect. Also separating families regardless of their situation seems like a blanket injustice. Grandfather has made a good case in this respect.

 

[why_me]

FLDS and LDS are drugs. Both of them. Lies included as part of the illnes.

As Karl Marx said: Religion is the opiate of the Masses. Perhaps he was write in the context of his time.

 

[majick275]

This is true. I gave a link to a polygamous family that seems to have a stable and loving family or families. The FLDS case however is not one of defense but one of following the law. The phone call was dubious and a lie. The case was built on a lie and thus, the case becomes suspect. Also separating families regardless of their situation seems like a blanket injustice. Grandfather has made a good case in this respect.

yet this is EXACTLY what the FLDS have done. Warren Jeffs decided who should go to texas and reassigned wives and children as necessary to make that happen, the FLDS reassign wives and children all the time. they also kick out young men on a regular basis. THEY have been separating families for years.

 

[J_C]

As Karl Marx said: Religion is the opiate of the Masses. Perhaps he was write in the context of his time.

Marx lived not so very long ago, and we now know that so much of his theory was badly flawed. Among the flaws is this idea about religion being an opiate.

now for some people, i would say, yes, religion is like a drug. some people are religion addicts, and I have long been fond of comparing fundamentalist people to drug addicts. I strongly agree with those who teach that there is an addiction aspect to the way SOME people respond to religion.

But religion itself, or rather I should emphasize, CORRECT RELIGION itself, is not a drug, but rather the way God has deigned to make Himself available to men. Correct religion is God given, and therefore a very good thing. like all good things it can be abused by the very stupid, and i should say that i myself have abused it here and there during my life, being that I am among the very stupid.

but in spite of my stupidity, one thing I now know is that Marx was wrong, has been swept into the dustbin of history where he belongs, and that references to him of the type whyme gives above are not very enlightening.

 

[LaMar]

My faith in humanity without a god principle is very limited. Humans will replace the heavenly god with materialistic idols, as is happening now.

That’s another great point. I definitely agree that consumerism is a religion without purpose. Marx, Gramsci, Lukacs and other dialectical materialists would join you in criticizing western society for the warped view of social and economic relations it institutes and fosters. Any critique of religion in general needs to be expressed in the greater hegemonic structure, which uses religion to further certain repressive social and economic goals.
why me:

As Karl Marx said: Religion is the opiate of the Masses. Perhaps he was write in the context of his time.

Capitalizing Masses is something Marx would have frowned upon.

He called that the cult of the individual. Stalin, Mao and other inhuman dictators used it to sublimate creative individuality with a conformity, based upon a false conception of a collective individual – usually embodied in the form of a totalitarian dictator – which the people worship like a deity.

LaMar
(the resident Marxist-Leninist)

 

[why_me]

Marx lived not so very long ago, and we now know that so much of his theory was badly flawed. Among the flaws is this idea about religion being an opiate.

now for some people, i would say, yes, religion is like a drug. some people are religion addicts, and I have long been fond of comparing fundamentalist people to drug addicts. I strongly agree with those who teach that there is an addiction aspect to the way SOME people respond to religion.

But religion itself, or rather I should emphasize, CORRECT RELIGION itself, is not a drug, but rather the way God has deigned to make Himself available to men. Correct religion is God given, and therefore a very good thing. like all good things it can be abused by the very stupid, and i should say that i myself have abused it here and there during my life, being that I am among the very stupid.

but in spite of my stupidity, one thing I now know is that Marx was wrong, has been swept into the dustbin of history where he belongs, and that references to him of the type whyme gives above are not very enlightening.

For Karl Marx, religion was an opiate because it kept people in oppression by promising them a heaven and by more or less telling them to accept their plight in life. For him, when he observed just how capitalism was working in the western countries and saw the injustice that the system created, he decided to critque this injustice and offer an alternative idea, socialism.

Life during his time was just a little different from today. The capitalist system created gross poverty and inequality. It cared very little for the human element that worked within it.

And so, was Marx wrong about capitalism? No, I don’t think so. He was correct. The whole idea of european social democracy had its roots in Marx and this gave european workers security and a safety net.

Capitalism also gave birth to the salvation army and christian charities since without such charities and organizations, the poor would have surely starved.

 

[MelanieAnne]

For Karl Marx, religion was an opiate because it kept people in oppression by promising them a heaven and by more or less telling them to accept their plight in life. For him, when he observed just how capitalism was working in the western countries and saw the injustice that the system created, he decided to critque this injustice and offer an alternative idea, socialism.

Life during his time was just a little different from today. The capitalist system created gross poverty and inequality. It cared very little for the human element that worked within it.

And so, was Marx wrong about capitalism? No, I don’t think so. He was correct. The whole idea of european social democracy had its roots in Marx and this gave european workers security and a safety net.

Capitalism also gave birth to the salvation army and christian charities since without such charities and organizations, the poor would have surely starved.

This is even further off topic than before, but since it’s been brought up ~ the problem with Communism is that it is contrary to human nature. In a perfect world, it might work. But that’s not where we live. As a result, Communism has failed anywhere that it has ever been tried. Capitalism does work because it appeals to the self interest that is fundamental to human nature.

Both systems are not perfect, both can be carried to extremes and both can be corrupted by greed and concentration of power.

I supposed the tie-in to this topic is that FLDS have some obvious collectivist characteristics, something all LDS attempted to practice at one point in their history before it was given up as unworkable. From what we can see from the outside so far, this FLDS cult as fallen victim to the same fate and has become hopelessly corrupt.

 

[ibkc]

This is even further off topic than before, but since it’s been brought up ~ the problem with Communism is that it is contrary to human nature. In a perfect world, it might work. But that’s not where we live. As a result, Communism has failed anywhere that it has ever been tried. Capitalism does work because it appeals to the self interest that is fundamental to human nature.

In addition to that, capitalism works because it is an open, scalable system. It can be regulated or it can be de-regulated. New ideas can be tried and adopted if they work or discarded if they don’t. Communism does not work because it starts with a rigid premise and does not allow deviation from the prescribed course. Attrition sets in fast and authoritarianism is always the result. It has happened everywhere that communism has been tried. Communism simply cannot learn from its mistakes; capitalism can.

 

[rmcmullan]

From Foxnews:

Dozens of mothers were bused away from their children at the San Angelo Coliseum on Thursday after their legal efforts to stay united were rejected. Texas officials were preparing to move the last of the more than 400 children taken from the sect’s ranch to group homes, shelters and residences, some hundreds of miles away, over the next few days.

One woman held a handwritten sign out the bus window that read: “SOS. Mothers separated. Help.”

“There are no words to describe how it was,” said Velvet, a mother who was forced to leave her 13-month old. “We’ve been staying up nights to watch over the children because we didn’t know what would happen.”

And, echoing the sentiments of Grandfather and some other posters,

“My heart’s breaking for those kids,” said Kathleen Tucker, 58, who attended with her daughter and four grandchildren.

Tucker said she was not affiliated with the FLDS church but felt the families’ religious freedoms were violated.

“How in the world can they do that? How can the state do that?” she asked.

And, finally

The Austin-based court agreed to hear arguments Tuesday, but attorney Robert Doggett, who represents 48 mothers, said that “having a hearing after the fact” was pointless.

“It could very well be there’s some good reasons to remove some of those children, absolutely,” Doggett said. “But to suggest all of them be painted with this broad brush because they belong to a particular religion is a very dangerous thing, and that’s why we have courts.”

 

[rmcmullan]

Perhaps the FLDS can take some comfort in these words, from the D&C:

5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;
6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;
7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.