Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[Jerusha]

I understand that more and more of these mothers are admitting to being under seventeen, and will go into foster care with thier children, since they are vicitms, too. The had not been cooperating out of a desire to protect the men.

 

[Jerusha]

Yes, Marx made some criticisms about the society in which he lived that still stand today. Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. We know that sick religion still exists, particularly blaming the poor for their poverty, or justifying racism.

My grandfather was raised in England, his father was an alcoholic pub-keeper. They pawned their Sunday clothes on Monday, redeemed them on Friday. He had to leave school about the age of fourteen, when his father died, and worked in a tea factory. There was a huge deduction every payday for wasted tea. He had no understanding how that much tea could be wasted. Luckily he finally got an apprenticeship as a tailor. He was a Roosevelt Democrat all his life.

We have to remember that after the Mormons left Nauvoo, a French Catholic commune took over, the Icarians. Bickering broke them up fairly quickly, but their descendants still are in the wine and cheese and honey industries in the area. I have no objection to small socialistic communities, so long as they do not interfere with the lives of local outsiders.

 

[Jerusha]

chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5729490.html

 

[fatima1917]

From the above story:

"After executing the search warrant April 3, officials said they saw what they believed to be underage pregnant girls and began removing children and women from the ranch.

An affidavit for a second, broader search warrant alleged that investigators found evidence that underage girls were “spiritually married” to older men and forced to have sex.

One young mother told investigators that she was 15 when she gave birth to her first child. Texas law prohibits children under 16 from being married.

CPS investigators said those practices put all girls at risk of sexual abuse and all boys at risk of becoming men who abuse minor girls."

Sounds like systemic abuse to me (and to any other rationally thinking adult).

 

[MelanieAnne]

So, McMullan, you’re in favor of breeding and raising innocent children into sexual slavery? Because that’s what this cult is doing.

All the plays on the emotion don’t change that basic fact. No amount of trying to make the predators into victims will change that basic fact. So your position is that it’s better to send those children back so the appetites of the middle aged men can continue to be satisfied, no matter what?

Consider this ~ if the men in this cult hadn’t created these conditions to begin with, none of this would have happened. If you’re looking for someone to find fault with, you could start with the ones that are raping children.

 

[rmcmullan]

MelanieAnne, I do not have much more to say than what I have said previously. What you are calling sexual slavery and abuse and rape is to them a normal and happy family. When I see such an extreme in opinions, I know I’m not getting the full story. Especially when you use such condemning language and accusatory words. You apparently have a zero tolerance for these people, don’t like them or their religion or the wretched, non-Christian cult they sprang from. That puts you IMHO in the less credible heap of witnesses.

I have not seen the women dancing in the street, free from their captors and brainshwashers and abusers at last! The Iraqi people at least tore down Saddam’s statue. When it comes to the FLDS, I don’t see the state of Texas welcomed as liberators. Just the opposite. The women have mourned their treatment by the state of Texes. The men have fled out of state to avoid the envitable criminal persecution (oops, typo I meant prosecution of course), thus destroying the women’s last hope of maintaining the life they knew and the families they loved.

You might think I support their practices. That’s because you have not seriously read my postings. I don’t. But the stark intolerance has hurt these people and driven them from state to state and isolated them. I don’t want to be one of the ones to blame for that.

 

[ibkc]

MelanieAnne, I do not have much more to say than what I have said previously. What you are calling sexual slavery and abuse and rape is to them a normal and happy family.

Maybe because many - most - of them don’t know anything different? Would also you say that the slaves of the Old South should not have been emancipated because some of them might not have known the difference between lives as slaves and lives as free people?

When I see such an extreme in opinions, I know I’m not getting the full story.

Then why don’t you get Carolyn Jessup’s book and read it?

 

[MelanieAnne]

MelanieAnne, I do not have much more to say than what I have said previously. What you are calling sexual slavery and abuse and rape is to them a normal and happy family. When I see such an extreme in opinions, I know I’m not getting the full story. Especially when you use such condemning language and accusatory words. You apparently have a zero tolerance for these people, don’t like them or their religion or the wretched, non-Christian cult they sprang from. That puts you IMHO in the less credible heap of witnesses.

You don’t know a thing about me, including what I like or what other religions they are related to.

You call the language extreme. I guess you can do that. But when children are raised into a lifestyle where children are given as bedmates for middle aged men, where both child brides and adult brides are re-assigned to different husbands at the whim of the cult leader, show me what is extreme about saying these children are being bred into sexual slavery? Show me an example of sexual slavery that is materially different.

Rape has a statutory definition if the child is young enough. There are pregnant girls under the age of 16 in custody. There are mothers under the age of 16 in custody who have their children with them. You may call that part of “normal and happy” family life, but by the laws of this country, it’s evidence of rape.

I’m not the one being extreme here. It’s the denial of reality that is extreme.

 

[majick275]

I can’t believe people are defending a group that brought up their children in a communal setting with programmed loyalty to marry off underage girls into the harems of old men while driving out young men. not to mention the “reassignment” of wives and children at the whim of leaders. that they aren’t rejoicing at their deliverance is testament to the brain washing they have received. you might want to read up on the psychological aspects involved in this. these people have been DAMAGED!!! no wonder they react this way. there is no right to live like this. case law abounds on the government obligation to intervene in this situation.

now some here are resorting to promoting marxism?

gee the joseph smith lovefest (polygamy, united order, etc.) is unbelievable. that this comes from NOM’s is stunning.

 

[RC_Matt]

You might think I support their practices. That’s because you have not seriously read my postings. I don’t. But the stark intolerance has hurt these people and driven them from state to state and isolated them. I don’t want to be one of the ones to blame for that.

OK, so you would have society “tolerate” what is essentially a closed sex camp for men; where young girls are “spiritually” married to older men in polygamous relationships and 15 year-olds give birth. Dude, there is so much wrong with this picture that it’s off the scale; in fact, it’s an “abomination.” It’s perverse and it’s sick. If you can’t see that, I would seriously encourage you to discuss your interpretations of this issue with a mental health professional.

 

[Jerusha]

Rmcmullin’s defense of Flds is so strong that I wonder if he is one of them. Their religion doesn’t prohibit computers and intenet, you know. I would just let him be.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Rmcmullin’s defense of Flds is so strong that I wonder if he is one of them. Their religion doesn’t prohibit computers and intenet, you know. I would just let him be.

Hi Jerusha, I doubt he is FLDS, but he’s Mormon and some very strong defensiveness is typical of some Mormons on this subject.

What I find remarkable is that so many people continue to harp on “polygamy”. But this isn’t about polygamy. This is about child abuse, specifically sexual abuse. The continuing focus on polygamy raises the question of whether the child abuse, which is already a proven fact, is just being ignored. I find that incomprehensible.

Even if it were about polygamy, the LDS really can’t completely distinguish themselves from FLDS because of their doctrine that polygamy will be practiced in the Celestial Kingdom. That’s another source of discomfort for some. They can rightly say that it is not practiced NOW within this earthly existence, but their doctrine is unequivocal about the hereafter.

 

[Jerusha]

Shhhh! I just wanted to see how he would react.

 

[MelanieAnne]

OK! Zipped!!!

 

[ArdenB]

I can’t believe people are defending a group that brought up their children in a communal setting with programmed loyalty to marry off underage girls into the harems of old men while driving out young men. not to mention the “reassignment” of wives and children at the whim of leaders. that they aren’t rejoicing at their deliverance is testament to the brain washing they have received. you might want to read up on the psychological aspects involved in this. these people have been DAMAGED!!! no wonder they react this way. there is no right to live like this. case law abounds on the government obligation to intervene in this situation.

now some here are resorting to promoting marxism?

gee the joseph smith lovefest (polygamy, united order, etc.) is unbelievable. that this comes from NOM’s is stunning.

:clapping:

 

[distracted]

Suppose the police received a call from a woman who said she was raped in your home, but she never was in your home. They raided your home on the basis of the call and took your children. They found out the call was a fraud, removing the reason for the raid and seizure of children, but they decided to keep your children anyway, because they disapprove of your religion. I disapprove of this religion. I think they are a nutty cult. Their leader is in jail where he belongs, but there is no evidence that a crime was committed and the police seized over four hundred children. They raided this compound with heavy armor and took four hundred children. So they can not determine who the fathers are. Is that cause for this raid. There are millions of women who have no husbands or had several with kids by them all and they get welfare. This is the kind of thing that makes people despise the government. The Reno raids killed a lot of people. At Ruby Ridge the government shot and killed a mother with a baby in her arms, and nothing was done about it. Who is more of a threat to human life, and liberty, this nutty group or the government that sanctions and pays for abortions, and siezes children under false accusations, burns them holed up in a dormitory in Waco, or gets involved in a siege reminiscent of medieval warfare at Ruby Ridge?

**I So Totally Agree that i couldn’t find anything in your post to delete… **

 

[distracted]

.

My own feeling on polygamy is that maybe some of it can be tolerated but on whole,

HOw can any Christian (are you one of those?) condone polygamy? Would you say it is OK for a woman to have 3 or 4 husbands?? Or is just OK for men to have more than one wife.?

In order to keep the hot young babes for themselves, the older men need to get rid of their sexual rivals and so they are always looking for reasons to toss out the young men.  This is just so wrong.  As for the older women, after their child bearing years are over, I would imagine they receive very little attention.  And that's on top of the lack of fatherly support the wife and children would have never gotten because the father was spread amongst three or so families.

You’ve just explained many reasons why polygamy is WRONG…

What seems to be lacking in the conversation is:

What about love?? I’ve been celibate and alone for many many years and haven’t found true love yet… How can all these underage people and their overage “husbands” be in love??

This whole things is just plain SICK!!!

Young marriage and polygamy are not unusual outside of American culture.

Good grief… You act like marriage is necessary for life or something…

A human being doesn’t even need to marry ONCE in order to please God and make it to Heaven… or even to be reasonably happy on this Earth…

In this sex-focused, sex-everywhere society, is it any wonder we have these perverts raping little girls and calling it “marriage”…?

I am totally disgusted!!

 

[distracted]

. Suppose your parish was raided at Mass tomorrow and everyone was hauled off and all the kids were put in foster care, because a number of parishoners were welfare cheats, or committed any other crime, used drugs, ran a ring that smuggled immigrants across the border.

Exactly

My opinion of their religion does not justify the government’s action.

Exactly again…

Suppose one man fathered 44 bastard children with 44 different women he never married and they all were on welfare. Would that give the government the right to take the kids from their mothers?

Excellent point. It seems people in general kind of lose their heads just because polygamy is an affront to the average American… (and, of course, should be…). We must never lose sight of logic and the Constitution… which, as stated elsewhere, does not seem to be worth the paper it is written on… I know of cases where it was thrown out the window entirely …

 

[majick275]

Then let me respond…

Suppose the police received a call from a woman who said she was raped in your home, but she never was in your home. They raided your home on the basis of the call and took your children. They found out the call was a fraud, removing the reason for the raid and seizure of children, but they decided to keep your children anyway, because they disapprove of your religion.

let’s stop here and acknowledge that while in the “home” they found evidence of systemic, institutionalized rape of children. there is also the fact that the leader of this “home” is already in prison for directing this and there is a lot of other evidence that it has been widespread. so to make this analogy accurate: the woman who was never in your home claimed rape there BUT your father is in prison for raping and helping others to rape children in your home and there appear to be multiple teenage girls with children of their own living there and none of them are allowed any contact with the world outside your home

I disapprove of this religion. I think they are a nutty cult. Their leader is in jail where he belongs, but there is no evidence that a crime was committed

except the pregnant underage girls and the doctrine and practices of this organization that the leader was convicted of. do you really believe he was the only one?

and the police seized over four hundred children.

took into protective custody

They raided this compound with heavy armor and took four hundred children.

since when is a single vietnam era M-113 made of cast aluminum coonsidered “heavy armor”?

So they can not determine who the fathers are. Is that cause for this raid.

when the mothers are underage it can be.

There are millions of women who have no husbands or had several with kids by them all and they get welfare.

and how many of them are underage with old men as the dads and trapped in a compound with no freedom?

This is the kind of thing that makes people despise the government. The Reno raids killed a lot of people.

appleas and oranges. reno and the feds screwed up royally. teh texas rangers know their stuff and no one got hurt.

At Ruby Ridge the government shot and killed a mother with a baby in her arms, and nothing was done about it.

feds again… and be careful lest you appear as an aryan nations type

Who is more of a threat to human life, and liberty, this nutty group or the government that sanctions and pays for abortions, and siezes children under false accusations, burns them holed up in a dormitory in Waco, or gets involved in a siege reminiscent of medieval warfare at Ruby Ridge?

well as far as the FLDS kids are concerned it would be the cult.as to abortions I agree, the government needs to stop that. I always vote for pro-life candidates and pray to end abortion. what do you do? waco was a debacle that the feds should have let the rangers handle. ruby ridge was entrapment. no excuse

 

[MelanieAnne]

Re: “there is no evidence that a crime was committed”

This is simply not true. No matter how many times it is repeated, it is not true. The pregnant underage girls found when they entered the grounds of the cult are prima facie evidence that a crime was committed. Indeed, since there was more than one, it was prima facie evidence of multiple crimes. It is incontrovertible evidence of RAPE.

Re: "Suppose the police received a call from a woman who said she was raped in your home, but she never was in your home. They raided your home on the basis of the call and took your children. They found out the call was a fraud, removing the reason for the raid and seizure of children, but they decided to keep your children anyway, because they disapprove of your religion.

This is a preposterous hypothetical and as such is not relevant to the actual situation under discussion.