Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[grandfather]

the monogamous FLDS homes are temporary at best since their doctrine requires at least 3 wives to be compliant with “the principle”. those who do not obey have their wives (and children) “reassigned”.

 

[rmcmullan]

…>By raising these girls from birth on an isolated compound to believe that this is Gods command makes it difficult for them to exercise free agency. they are damaged mentally and emotionally. …None of these “families” is legal OR healthy for women or children. (or men for that matter)

Well okay, granted Majick but I’m not sure they are being raised in a compound to maintain control. They are trying to be a separate community and are not very popular–there might be some element of self protection here too.

As for the mental or emotional health of the women, it’s hard to believe that they wouldn’t be better off with more choices and freedom. Especially when it comes to who to marry and when. I definitely agree they are far astray from a healthy sort of society. My only point is has it really gotten so bad that the extreme action of Texas CPS are justified? Are the women really happier with their families broken up and their husbands on the run or in jail?

 

[ibkc]

Are the women really happier with their families broken up and their husbands on the run or in jail?

I’m sure most criminals are happier when they haven’t been caught. The family who grows and sells tons of hydroponic marijuana out of the home are close and doing fine until the nasty old DEA figures out what they’re doing. The family who has a money-counterfeiting operation in their basement are happy as clams until the big bad T-men raid the house and end their happiness. The women who raise their daughters to be sex slaves to 80-year-old men are doing just fine until the state of Texas comes in and spoils the party. I mean, why spoil anyone’s happiness? Should it really matter if the law is being broken?

 

[MelanieAnne]

I’m sure most criminals are happier when they haven’t been caught. The family who grows and sells tons of hydroponic marijuana out of the home are close and doing fine until the nasty old DEA figures out what they’re doing. The family who has a money-counterfeiting operation in their basement are happy as clams until the big bad T-men raid the house and end their happiness. The women who raise their daughters to be sex slaves to 80-year-old men are doing just fine until the state of Texas comes in and spoils the party. I mean, why spoil anyone’s happiness? Should it really matter if the law is being broken?

I’ll believe in the sincerity of the apologists for this cult when they transfer their wives, daughters and granddaughters to live there.

I think this is strictly a hypothetical discussion for a lot of people. But if it came down to their own families, the recommendations would be different.

 

[why_me]

majick275;3650634:

So arrest them and take their kids before they commit the crime you know they will surely commit.

By sending girls to public school and indoctrinating them with government ideology you are setting them up to be promiscuous, have a 25% chance of being sexually molested, and the ones who get pregnant have a 50% chance of aborting their babies. These schools need to be dealt with. They are criminal enterprizes sanctioned by the government.

It is true that they are what you say. They are a threat to themselves. The real threat to families and children in the entire society is not FLDS. Stop giving them government assistance and they will wither. That is all you have to do. The real threat to children and families is much bigger than FLDS. FLDS is only a distraction.

Grandfather, you make a lot of sense but I cannot say that you will be understood by some on this thread. But I understand your viewpoint very well. It is a shame that many just cannot see the abuse that has been done against an entire group of people. But then again, go back to the beginnings of WW ll and you will see the same reaction in favor of putting the Japanese Americans in isolated compounds by the US govenment at that time.

 

[MelanieAnne]

grandfather;3650833:

Grandfather, you make a lot of sense but I cannot say that you will be understood by some on this thread. But I understand your viewpoint very well. It is a shame that many just cannot see the abuse that has been done against an entire group of people. But then again, go back to the beginnings of WW ll and you will see the same reaction in favor of putting the Japanese Americans in isolated compounds by the US govenment at that time.

It would be a mistake to confuse disagreement with misunderstanding.

 

[grandfather]

Well okay, granted Majick but I’m not sure they are being raised in a compound to maintain control. They are trying to be a separate community and are not very popular–there might be some element of self protection here too.

Parents home school their children in America to keep control over what they are exposed to in government schools. Private Chrisitan schools are everywhere in America where parents pay dearly to send their children. They may get a better education there, but a major reason is to create an environment where their shared religious values are respected and not give the government control over the minds of children. The motive is control. The same thing is true of Jewish schools. Parents want their children in a Jewish environment to keep them Jewish. The problem with FLDS is their religion is abhorent to most of us. What this issue is really about is religious freedom. Everyone says they believe in it, BUT. The same thing is true of speech. You can’t incite riots. But if there were truly free speech, or absolute free speech you could. You could advocate the overthrow of the government and in fact that may be what the framers had in mind, in case the government went bad, the people should overthrow it as they threw out the British. So we believe in freedom of religion as long as your religion does not advocate human sacrifice, cannibalism, arranged plural marriages of children. The civil government of the people is involved in morals. Isn’t that what they say they are not allowed to teach in public schools. Does anyone see the contradiction? They are enforcing morals in TX and abandoning them in schools.

 

[majick275]

Well okay, granted Majick but I’m not sure they are being raised in a compound to maintain control. They are trying to be a separate community and are not very popular–there might be some element of self protection here too.

As for the mental or emotional health of the women, it’s hard to believe that they wouldn’t be better off with more choices and freedom. Especially when it comes to who to marry and when. I definitely agree they are far astray from a healthy sort of society. My only point is has it really gotten so bad that the extreme action of Texas CPS are justified? Are the women really happier with their families broken up and their husbands on the run or in jail?

YES!!! it is that bad. and i don’t know if these women even CAN be happy given the damage done to them. i know the children are better off and at the very least we can stop it from continuing.

 

[majick275]

majick275;3650634:

So arrest them and take their kids before they commit the crime you know they will surely commit.

they are already committing crimes.

By sending girls to public school and indoctrinating them with government ideology you are setting them up to be promiscuous, have a 25% chance of being sexually molested, and the ones who get pregnant have a 50% chance of aborting their babies. These schools need to be dealt with. They are criminal enterprizes sanctioned by the government.

much as i hate to be the defender of public schools you have yet to show anything resembling a causal link. there are numerous socioeconomic factors contributing to these problems. locking the girls up until they are chosen to be part of a harem isn’t the answer.

It is true that they are what you say. They are a threat to themselves. The real threat to families and children in the entire society is not FLDS. Stop giving them government assistance and they will wither. That is all you have to do. The real threat to children and families is much bigger than FLDS. FLDS is only a distraction.

there are many threats to families today. the biggest threat to THESE families though is the FLDS church. and i agree we need to stop the welfare fraud but if you look at the more “successful” polyg groups you don’t see so much of that. they follow the BY self sufficiency teachings and can continue without gov assistance. we have to do more. at least we are finally doing something.

 

[majick275]

Parents home school their children in America to keep control over what they are exposed to in government schools. Private Chrisitan schools are everywhere in America where parents pay dearly to send their children. They may get a better education there, but a major reason is to create an environment where their shared religious values are respected and not give the government control over the minds of children. The motive is control. The same thing is true of Jewish schools. Parents want their children in a Jewish environment to keep them Jewish. The problem with FLDS is their religion is abhorent to most of us. What this issue is really about is religious freedom. Everyone says they believe in it, BUT. The same thing is true of speech. You can’t incite riots. But if there were truly free speech, or absolute free speech you could. You could advocate the overthrow of the government and in fact that may be what the framers had in mind, in case the government went bad, the people should overthrow it as they threw out the British. So we believe in freedom of religion as long as your religion does not advocate human sacrifice, cannibalism, arranged plural marriages of children. The civil government of the people is involved in morals. Isn’t that what they say they are not allowed to teach in public schools. Does anyone see the contradiction? They are enforcing morals in TX and abandoning them in schools.

and that is all well and good until the religion being inculcated turns the children into terrorists or sex slaves. laws must by their very nature be based on morals. it is unfortunate that usually means the lowest common denominator. we have to draw the line somewhere or we have anarchy.

 

[twopekinguys]

grandfather;3650833:

Grandfather, you make a lot of sense but I cannot say that you will be understood by some on this thread. But I understand your viewpoint very well. It is a shame that many just cannot see the abuse that has been done against an entire group of people. But then again, go back to the beginnings of WW ll and you will see the same reaction in favor of putting the Japanese Americans in isolated compounds by the US govenment at that time.

So what is your solution? It is easy to sit there and say look at those poor people being persecuted (which is what you’re implying).

You keep saying that the state is wrong in doing this, but you have yet to offer any kind of solution on how to resolve the issue.

Would you rather the state leave all the children there to be subjects of abuse, or even taken to other locations where they couldn’t be interviewed, or protected?

Why not let your kids live in that compound, and see how well you sleep at night. There’s a solution for you.

You realize from some of the more recent reports, that they have found at least 4 girls of the same name, and same age, that could be the one reported in the call right? What would happen to anyone of those girls had they been left in that compound while the state made all nicey nicey during an investigation?

This is not about persecuting a group of people, it is about protecting the children.:banghead:

Why is it so hard for people to see it is about protecting child

 

[grandfather]

why me;3651610:

So what is your solution? It is easy to sit there and say look at those poor people being persecuted (which is what you’re implying).

If they are committing crimes as alleged I would have them investigated. There are people who have left disgruntled. I would interview them ans seek sworn testimony and start making individual arrests. If there is welfare and food stamp fraud as asserted this is very easy to investigate. It is a crime. People go to jail for it. Do not give out either without a birth certificate. The state is feeding these people. It has rights to information that can not be denied if they want to stay in the programs. Fathers are legally required to pay child support. Go after them. CPS can investigate individuals without rounding up hundreds of kids.

You keep saying that the state is wrong in doing this, but you have yet to offer any kind of solution on how to resolve the issue.

I don’t make the rules. The laws are what they are.

Would you rather the state leave all the children there o be subjects of abuse, or even taken to other locations where they couldn’t be interviewed, or protected?

I think I said I would rather investigations be done on a case by case basis.

Why not let your kids live in that compound, and see how well you sleep at night. There’s a solution for you.

I am not FLDS.

You realize from some of the more recent reports, that they have found at least 4 girls of the same name, and same age, that could be the one reported in the call right? What would happen to anyone of those girls had they been left in that compound while the state made all nicey nicey during an investigation?

If a girl called for help and help arrived it seems she would identify herself. Cell phone calls are not difficult to trace. Phones have numbers that belong to people who pay the bills. There is a recor dof every call. Have they found the phone or identified the number as belonging to someone in FLDS. It seems that would have been announced. It may have been, but I did not see it.

This is not about persecuting a group of people, it is about protecting the children.:banghead:

I am all for protecting children. When we realize we have problems it seems prudent to take care of the most severe problems first. If you were having a heart attack you would not do your laundry. 25% of girls in public school will be molested by the time they are 16. An equal number will get herpes or clamydia or some other std. Tell me where are the most children who need protecting? It is on our own back yard. You don’t have to go to TX to find a teeange girl to protect. The state is the biggest menace to children by far. Our entire civilization is gone off the rails. The kitchen is ablaze. It is not time to kill cockroaches. The house is on fire.

Why is it so hard for people to see it is about protecting child

I think everyone sees that.

 

[distracted]

I But I can believe that even a home with a young bride (even too young) and a polygamous husband can be happy.

I don’t mean any disrespect but exactly What are you saying??

If a man impregnates a young girl (not old enough to marry, legally)… he is a criminal and a pervert… Without thinking about it very long, i would say that he doesn’t deserve to have contact with the child he helped create… (though the young girl does…). If, in the course of a crime, a person accidentally makes something good happen, that doesn’t mean he should benefit from that… He should be in prison…

 

[rmcmullan]

I don’t mean any disrespect but exactly What are you saying??

If a man impregnates a young girl (not old enough to marry, legally)… he is a criminal and a pervert… Without thinking about it very long, i would say that he doesn’t deserve to have contact with the child he helped create… (though the young girl does…). If, in the course of a crime, a person accidentally makes something good happen, that doesn’t mean he should benefit from that… He should be in prison…

He might be considered a criminal, depending on what the laws are and they do vary across state and country. The age of consent varies from 12 to 21 across the world. avert.org/aofconsent.htm So Cambodia’s criminal and disgusting pervert is just a normal person in Bulgaria. Also please note that in polygamy, there is a vow which leads to a husband and home. This isn’t like they are losing their virginity in the backseat to the football team star.

Honestly, I don’t believe most of the people here who say they are just concerned about the children. I think grandfather’s argument concerning the problems in the Catholic church and Cardinal Law was particularly devasting. I think, although people are understandable reluctant to say, that they consider the whole FLDS lifestyle abuse and they want them wiped out. Of course you can’t wipe people out like that just because you don’t like them. The under age marriage is the only criminal activity anyone has been able to pin on them (so far). So they make a big deal out of that and can’t stop saying “abuse” but they mean it only in the sense that the FLDS are so oppresive particularly to the women. And no one will say it but the polygamy thing really, really bothers people. And for the people who feel that way, I say, “Fine! You are entitled! I feel somewhat that way myself.” I just don’t feel like sending in an army to split up their families and destroy them as a people.

I know I’m going off the deep end with this but I worry about the Amish. What if some one decides that their home schooling and backwards way and the women having to wear hairnets and their refusal to provide comfortable homes for their offspring is abusive? I know this is a strech but if you get the right judge, which apparently Texas did, then the Pennsylvania CPS has the right to round up all the Amish and destroy their families? I think yes! What’s the check and balance?

 

[distracted]

He might be considered a criminal, depending on what the laws are and they do vary across state and country. The age of consent varies from 12 to 21 across the world. avert.org/aofconsent.htm So Cambodia’s criminal and disgusting pervert is just a normal person in Bulgaria.

the deciding factor is what God thinks… and when we don’t know what God would set as the age of consent, then we have to depend on our imperfect laws… but most societies in the world are against polygamy.

Also please note that in polygamy, there is a vow which leads to a husband and home.

big deal. There’s no way on God’s green earth i am going to share a man with another woman…
You must be a man.

This isn’t like they are losing their virginity in the backseat to the football team star.

It is to me…

they consider the whole FLDS lifestyle abuse and they want them wiped out. Of course you can’t wipe people out like that just because you don’t like them.

People i do not want to see wiped out - Cults I do…

The under age marriage is the only criminal activity anyone has been able to pin on them (so far).

that’s not what i heard.

And no one will say it but the polygamy thing really, really bothers people.

As well it should…

And for the people who feel that way, I say, “Fine! You are entitled! I feel somewhat that way myself.”

Somewhat?? Well, like i said, you must be a guy…

I just don’t feel like sending in an army to split up their families and destroy them as a people.

If they created families through crime (statutory rape), then i say, they should suffer whatever consequences the law allows…

I know I’m going off the deep end with this but I worry about the Amish. What if some one decides that their home schooling and backwards way and the women having to wear hairnets and their refusal to provide comfortable homes for their offspring is abusive? I know this is a strech

Yeah, it certainly is. There is a big difference between what the Amish do and what the FLDS is accused of… Not even in the same ballpark…

 

[rmcmullan]

Are you ready for a multi-quote? Why not?!

the deciding factor is what God thinks… and when we don’t know what God would set as the age of consent, then we have to depend on our imperfect laws… but most societies in the world are against polygamy.

Huh, what? I really, really don’t want to argue polygamy but He certainly has allowed that. And all Muslim societies allow polygamy. There is nothing in the Bible about the age of consent. I think 18 is reasonable but I am a Christian and somewhat old-fashioned that way.

big deal. There’s no way on God’s green earth i am going to share a man with another woman… You must be a man.

Fine and you shouldn’t be made to. Even if you’re FLDS. I agree.

It is to me… People i do not want to see wiped out - Cults I do…

Aw, come on, that doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying they’re not even human beings? I think what you mean is that you’d like to see the people freed from the cult organization. But how much force are you willing to use if they don’t want to be “freed”? This is the main difference between our two positions but it’s a very important one. At least to me.

that’s not what i heard.

Well I would totally go against them if there was proof that there really was a lot of abuse in addition to the underage marriage. And by abuse I mean violence, neglect and coercion. But it’s very suspicious the way the Texas CPS wanted to try them–round them all up and force them all through the court in one day. I think they don’t have anything. If it turns out otherwise, that would be a different matter.

As well it should…
Somewhat?? Well, like i said, you must be a guy…

Ha, it’s true that guys don’t have this strong negative reaction to polygamy like the women do.

If they created families through crime (statutory rape), then i say, they should suffer whatever consequences the law allows…

Oooo, now that’s pretty harsh, are you sure you don’t want to reconsider?

Yeah, it certainly is. There is a big difference between what the Amish do and what the FLDS is accused of… Not even in the same ballpark…

Well, when the US income tax was introduced, for decades it affected hardly anyone but the highest income earners. It slept in the legal code for years until it turned into the monster it is today.

My concern is the precedence it is setting. Please, answer the question, where are the checks and balances? It’s not a matter of “what they do”, it’s a matter of when public opinion turns against a group of people, is there some legal mechanism or precendence established that can be used to destroy them?

 

[ibkc]

Honestly, I don’t believe most of the people here who say they are just concerned about the children.

That’s mighty charitable of you.

I think grandfather’s argument concerning the problems in the Catholic church and Cardinal Law was particularly devasting.

I suppose for someone who cannot follow the simplest rules of logic, it might be “devasting” [sic] but the rest of us realize his attempt to demonstrate equivalencies between the two was pretty ridiculous. Everyone agrees that individuals involved in the Catholic abuse scandal should be rooted out and prosecuted. Where his argument completely falls to pieces is in his insistence that the abuse was institutionalized and systematic. That would suggest that abusive doctrines are part of Church teachings. Nothing that can be considered abuse is part of Church teachings, and clergy who are abusers, and those who sought to hide them, are rather decidedly going AGAINST Church teachings.

I think, although people are understandable reluctant to say, that they consider the whole FLDS lifestyle abuse and they want them wiped out.

“Wiped out” is very strong language. Are you accusing us of wanting them killed? I do think that a religious group that absolutely refuses to follow the basic laws of the land does not deserve a pass. If they break the law, AS A GROUP, then they are criminals AS A GROUP.

Of course you can’t wipe people out like that just because you don’t like them.

If they are breaking the law, then they are bringing their own fate upon themselves.

 

[rmcmullan]

…That would suggest that abusive doctrines are part of Church teachings. Nothing that can be considered abuse is part of Church teachings, and clergy who are abusers, and those who sought to hide them, are rather decidedly going AGAINST Church teachings.

Okay, I am bringing out my secret weapon: a smiley: :juggle:

Oh, wait, I’m off topic. I did cover this already. Everything you say is also applicable about the FLDS and their underage marriage. It’s not part of their doctrine. Why do you think otherwise? If there is other abuse that is part of their doctrine, please put your finger on it and hold it up infront of me so I can see it plainly. You are saying what everyone else seems to be saying but I just haven’t seen it. That’s why I don’t believe it. I have visited lots of antiFLDS sites and watched all the FLDS interviews on youtube and Larry King and all but I have yet to see it. I even read a bunch of Warren Jeffs “lectures”. Some of it is just weird, some disturbing but none of it disturbs me as much as the actions of the Texas CPS.

 

[majick275]

i’ll gladly take the Texas CPS over the FLDS any day. I think the Bible DOES prohibit polygamy and even in the OT when it happened I think the examples given show it to be bad. While legal age of consent in some places may be low (mostly due to secular humanists wanting kids to “experiment” with each other) i don’t think anyone believes these underage marriages are good. this is pretty irrelevant anyway since it’s illegal in texas and that is what is being debated. polygamy is illegal too. this particular compound has pretty much enslaved women and done all it could to make them think that’s normal. I know why so many LDS are so desperate to defend their alleged “rights”. because all of their practices were taught by example by joseph smith and continued on through other leaders up to joseph f smith. while LDS don’t do these things today, they used to and justified it with scriptures that are still in the canon today. If warren Jeffs is wrong then so were all of the early LDS presidents.

 

[rmcmullan]

So it to me it sounds most of you think, “These women were abused by being made into sex slaves by a bunch of middle aged lechers who brain washed them into thinking they were serving God. But there’s a good chance they just want harems. They trapped all the women and children in this compound where they have no choice but to bend to their will”

Okay then, even if I allow all that, shouldn’t the remedial action be to remove them from the compound? Then they’re free! And then the women will be greatly relieved. That’s all the dissenters like Carol and Ruby Jessop wanted–to take their kids and get the heck out of there.