Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

[MelanieAnne]

The women were give the chance to leave. They declined, or, after leaving temporarily, they returned. It would appear that their programming is fairly effective.

 

[grandfather]

Well I would totally go against them if there was proof that there really was a lot of abuse in addition to the underage marriage. And by abuse I mean violence, neglect and coercion. But it’s very suspicious the way the Texas CPS wanted to try them–round them all up and force them all through the court in one day. I think they don’t have anything. If it turns out otherwise, that would be a different matter.

 

[grandfather]

I suppose for someone who cannot follow the simplest rules of logic, it might be “devasting” [sic] but the rest of us realize his attempt to demonstrate equivalencies between the two was pretty ridiculous. Everyone agrees that individuals involved in the Catholic abuse scandal should be rooted out and prosecuted. Where his argument completely falls to pieces is in his insistence that the abuse was institutionalized and systematic. That would suggest that abusive doctrines are part of Church teachings. Nothing that can be considered abuse is part of Church teachings, and clergy who are abusers, and those who sought to hide them, are rather decidedly going AGAINST Church teachings.
.

I think there are quite a few Catholics who have followed the story of the scandals who believe that there is an entrenched self promoting homosexual network in the clergy and hierarchy. They are part of the institution. As you say they are betrayers of the Church and her teaching, but they are nevertheless insiders operating within the system in positions of influence and power in seminaries, chanceries and universities.

 

[LaMar]

I think there are quite a few Catholics who have followed the story of the scandals who believe that there is an entrenched self promoting homosexual network in the clergy and hierarchy. They are part of the institution. As you say they are betrayers of the Church and her teaching, but they are nevertheless insiders operating within the system in positions of influence and power in seminaries, chanceries and universities.

First of all grandpa, you’re talking to someone who has a history of lecturing on topics she knows nothing about. Strongly suggest you quit wasting your time with this vampire.

Back to the topic: if you want to criticize the Catholics for sexual misbehavior, you have to be willing to deconstruct our own tradition and get to the underlying memes that catalyzed the FLDS scandal. Fair is fair, right?

Why do you think ol’ Warren Jeffs started sexually torturing young fundamentalist girls in the first place? Did he just cook that idea up in his head one day? Or did it have its start before him?

You seem to be pretty stalwart in your defense of these degenerates, as though Catholic misbehavior is fair game, but Mormon dirty garments are above reproach. That simply isn’t the way this game is played. Running interference for a bunch of sweaty old perverts is beneath us both.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Folks, sometimes the “ignore” feature can be a blessing!

 

[LaMar]

So I don’t agree with using the “nuclear option”, breaking up every family possible.

You guys are talking about this as though it’s some shadowy conspiracy to break up families. I don’t think that’s the case.

The children have been separated from the mothers because judges were persuaded that the children were being coached to lie to investigators by those same mothers. Women were switching children, and giving conflicting stories about the same children. Children were identifying multiple men as fathers.

The state is forced to go to extremes when people try to manipulate the system. The alternative is possibly allowing young children to be abused. None of it’s pretty, but it has to be done.

Children have the right to live without being raped. I can’t believe anyone would insinuate otherwise…especially people who supposedly follow the teachings of Jesus.

 

[grandfather]

Why do you think ol’ Warren Jeffs started sexually torturing young fundamentalist girls in the first place? Did he just cook that idea up in his head one day? Or did it have its start before him?

 

[ibkc]

That said, there are many in the Church today who are apologists for perversion. At a local parish some years ago there was an activist homosexual priest who was the associate pastor. This priest was the editor of a vile gay magazine. The pastor was the auxilliary bishop and did nothing to stop the man and encouraged him. A seminar was put on to promote the gay lifestyle at the parish. The bishop encouraged everyone to come.

This is very bad, but the two major points here are 1) that everyone involved with this was going against Church teaching and 2) nothing about this broke the law. Yet again, your comparisons are absolutely meaningless.

It is an injustice that Catholics suffer the loss of their properties, because of the behavior of sick priests or bishops. It is a perversion of justice.

When has this happened?

Every person within FLDS is not a pervert.

Every person within FLDS is an accessory to child abuse, whether willingly or not. Those women who have had the guts to leave and to expose what goes on in the FLDS deserve our support and respect. I don’t believe any of those women would think much of your arguments.

 

[MelanieAnne]

When has this happened?

There have been instances of bankrupt dioceses and the sale of church property to pay off damage awards. So it has happened. I don’t have specific data such as the precise location of which property sold, but I have heard that it has happened here and there across the country.

There’s no question that the scandal within our Church was handled badly, even the Holy Father has said as much. Priests in our parish have said as much, in public. But as you have pointed out, the abuses did not occur by anyone following church doctrine, it was just the opposite.

The FLDS can make no such claim, because the seduction of these children is consistent with their beliefs. Efforts to make the situations analogous are intellectually dishonest. It is unfortunate that some people cannot understand the difference.

 

[ibkc]

There have been instances of bankrupt dioceses and the sale of church property to pay off damage awards. So it has happened.

Ah, OK - it sounded to me like he was talking about individual Catholics losing their property.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Ah, OK - it sounded to me like he was talking about individual Catholics losing their property.

I don’t believe that has happened, but if your church building had to be sold, I can see where someone would view it as “personal”

And then there are other Catholics, or former Catholics in some cases, for the entire mess ended up similar to winning the lottery…

 

[distracted]

I really, really don’t want to argue polygamy but He certainly has allowed that.

No, inthe scriptures it says that God never allowed divorce (much less polygamy) but people (Moses, in the case of divorce) allowed it because of “the hardness of their hearts”… God, in the beginning, made men/women and when they leave their parents, they cleave to one another and become one flesh… and what God has joined, let no man put asunder…" Polygamy definitely puts “asunder”…

And all Muslim societies allow polygamy.

That’s a false religion so who cares what they allow??

There is nothing in the Bible about the age of consent. I think 18 is reasonable but I am a Christian and somewhat old-fashioned that way.

Frankly, i would put it lower, maybe 16… but only when/if parents are closely involved in the marriage decision of their teens… Even so, i am no 100% sure about this answer of mine… The reason i say 16 is because, in my experience, the older one gets… well, Long Story… but it may be better in many ways to marry when young… but i definitely do not think any child under 16 should marry… (Yes, i know, there is nothing magic about the age of 16… but the age has to be set somewhere)…

that doesn’t even make sense. Are you saying they’re not even human beings?

I don’t understand this reponse at all. What i meant was that i don’t believe in wiping people out but i DO believe in wiping out cults that break the law (God’s and/or man’s law)…

But how much force are you willing to use if they don’t want to be “freed”?

Only the force of the law… If statutory rape is going on there… they should be punished as the law allows…

I think they [CPS] don’t have anything. If it turns out otherwise, that would be a different matter.

I don’t know what the state has… all i know is what the media tells me… and frankly, i learned a long time ago not to trust those so and sos… (another long story…). I have learned the hard way not to trust them…

it’s true that guys don’t have this strong negative reaction to polygamy like the women do.

Oh gee, i wonder why?
One time i was talking to a bunch of people about whether prostitution should be legalized… Most of the people were fairly young but this older guy (50-ish) was outspoken about being in favor of it… this and that argument was bandied back and forth. Finally, i made the point that if there was a house of prostitution made up of women, there would also have to be one made up of men… Suddenly the 50-ish guy didn’t have anything to say, didn’t seem to be so in favor of it (he was married)…

You know, I was always told that men don’t respect women who are too “easy”… What makes men think that women feel any differently??
I can’t stand men who are… well, you know,that word used so often for women… the s word…

now that’s pretty harsh, are you sure you don’t want to reconsider?

No. And it is not harsh…

Well, when the US income tax was introduced,Please, answer the question, where are the checks and balances?

I am not sure what this has to do with the subject at hand…?

 

[MelanieAnne]

In response to:

it’s true that guys don’t have this strong negative reaction to polygamy like the women do.

You’re right, there’s an interesting double standard isn’t there?

All these men that have such a casual attitude about polygamy need to tell us how they would feel about polyandry…

 

[MCMcG12]

Personally, I would side with the government. How loud would you be screaming if the caller was for real, and the government did nothing about it?

I have heard reports that they in fact did find the girl that called in.

I have heard reports that the adults in that compound said the girl didn’t exist, but yet numerous kids stated that she did.

I have also heard news reports that since these were “spiritual” wives, they were eligible for, and received government aid or assistance for those children. If that’s true, our tax dollars were sanctioning this behavior.

The primary objective should be the safety of the children. Abuse doesn’t have to be physical to be abuse. A child calling 44 different women “mommy” is abuse in itself. (One man of this cult was listed as having 44 wives)

As far as your comments regarding the Waco incident, there are a couple of differences. 1. The Waco residents were shooting at the agents. 2. They set many, if not all of the fires there themselves, not the government agents. If you want to pity someone, pity the families of the dead government agents who were out gunned by a religous cult.

Here is an excellent link to an article regarding Waco. query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE1DA1131F93BA15750C0A965958260

As far as our government sanctioning abortion. I will say this. If we as parents would do our jobs, and get our children in church, and teach them the correct moral values, along with abstinence, respect for life, abortion would not be an issue. We all agree that abortion is wrong. I feel that our approach in stopping it needs to start at home and work upward.

Sorry to sound negative, but like it or not, lots of parents don’t do their jobs well. Some don’t even care that their daughters get pregnant. I have a Catholic friend whose parents started her on the pill in the 7th grade ‘just in case.’ That girl went to 9 years of Catholic gradeschool. Idealy, yes, this problem should be addressed in our homes. However, most prolife advocates are not the ones with daughters aborting their babies. The government should take a stand on this.

In my opinion, every person is a victom. All those people are brainwashed from childhood. Taking them out of that situation is a good thing for their morality in some respects, bad in others.

The foster system those kids will go into may be worse than calling 44 women “mommy.” In my opinion, the mothers should receive councelling and custody away from their cult. If they are bad parents, then the children should be taken from them. If they are good mothers than why take the risk of putting them into our faulty foster care system.

 

[rmcmullan]

The foster system those kids will go into may be worse than calling 44 women “mommy.” In my opinion, the mothers should receive councelling and custody away from their cult. If they are bad parents, then the children should be taken from them. If they are good mothers than why take the risk of putting them into our faulty foster care system.

An excellent point!

We’ve debated this for a long time and I think it’s time to make a motion and have a vote. I move that the FLDS children be returned to their mothers and the mothers who wish to leave the compound be given the same support a single mother with children would normally receive. To prevent any further underaged marriages I move that the Bishops records be reviewed twice a year and that a yearly inspection of the YFZ compound be conducted vy Texas CPS.

Fathers who have fathered children with under-aged brides and who return to Texas are in danger of criminal prosecution.

Any changes to the motion before I call for a second and a vote?

 

[LaMar]

That is nonsense. It is fine with me if they all are sent to prison. If that happens however, they should be individually tried and convicted of whatever crimes they committed. The Lord tells us to remove the log from our own eye before we take the splinter out of our neighbor’s eye. We do have some sins and it is easy to forget about them when we are outraged over someone we see as more evil than us.

You keep conflating criminal investigations with child welfare actions. The two are not compatible.

The people don’t need to indict someone to remove their children, they just need to convince a judge that there is reason to believe the children are in danger of being harmed. There’s a different threshold to meet.

I’ve never been admitted to the bar in the State of Texas, so I won’t pretend to lecture on the subject, but this is pretty basic.

He is sexually perverted. He is a slave to the devil, but I don’t know the details of why he started doing this any more than I know why a priest would become perverted. The difference between him and a priest pervert is Jeffs openly espouses perversion and the priest’s perversion is in contradiction to Catholic morals. That said, there are many in the Church today who are apologists for perversion. At a local parish some years ago there was an activist homosexual priest who was the associate pastor. This priest was the editor of a vile gay magazine. The pastor was the auxilliary bishop and did nothing to stop the man and encouraged him. A seminar was put on to promote the gay lifestyle at the parish. The bishop encouraged everyone to come. He brought in speakers and gays to explain the good things about their lifestyle and decry their victimhood. I could lengthen the list of outrages to fill the forum. A pervert is a pervert, Catholic, Mormon or atheist. We pray for their souls without prejudice.

There’s no reason to bring the devil or the Catholic church into the equation. Neither had anything to do with the scroungy old operators who run the YFZ.

The practice of (ab)using young teenage girls for the purposes of sexual exploitation goes right back to ol’ Uncle Joe himself. One of his favorite wives, Helen Mar Kimball, was only 14 when the prophet bedded down with her. Had he not spread this meme, so many Mormons today might think twice before cruising the junior high for a new “wife”.

The marriage of Helen Mar Kimball and Joseph Smith Jr. has long been a subject of controversy, most often with regard to her age at the time of the marriage. Author Jon Krakauer in his book Under the Banner of Heaven, claims that of the women married to Joseph Smith Jr.: “Several were still pubescent girls, such as fourteen-year-old Helen Mar Kimball” (Krakauer 2003, p. 120). Krakauer states his opinion more bluntly during an interview in 2003, in which he states "They will not like the fact that I point out that Joseph Smith told 14-year-old girls ‘God says you should marry me, if you don’t…’ His way of getting laid doesn’t reflect well on him.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Mar_Kimball

 

[grandfather]

There’s no reason to bring the devil or the Catholic church into the equation. Neither had anything to do with the scroungy old operators who run the YFZ.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I have seen judges act based on the report of social workers to sieze children. I question the legality of doing it by the truckload.

So taking away 1 child is OK but not 400? Then it’s just a numbers game. That can’t possibly be right.

 

[grandfather]

So taking away 1 child is OK but not 400? Then it’s just a numbers game. That can’t possibly be right.

Judges have a lot of power. It is apparently legal for them on their disgression to sieze a child and remove the child frmo a family. Whether that is right or not is a topic that is complicated. Children surely can be abused by parents and need protection, The process for doing this may be right, but one can see the potential for abuse by the state. At any rate the action is based on the circumstances within individual families or children. What occured in Texas is a mass roundup with no consideration of individual circumstances. I think it is pretty uinlikely even within this group of people who may be breaking the law on underage marraiges that there is the threat of sexual abuse or rape of infants. Why were they siezed from their mothers? There has been not crime. How as the judge stopping abuse of this infant? It has not occurred. If it is a potential it is a potential that might occur years from now.

 

[rmcmullan]

If anyone is interested, there’s a letter to President Bush from “Mother and Children of YFZ” at captivefldschildren.org/Pres%20Bush%20Letter%205-10-08.pdf that was just released Saturday.

An excerpt:

CRISIS in Texas includes: a gross disregard for human life, women and children held hostage, with the ultimate separation of children and mothers, the invasion of a community and the desecration of a Temple, outrageous mock hearing, blatant disregard of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as adopted by the United Nations and vouchsafed by the Constitution of the United States of America.