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Pwrlftr
Guest
Yes, yes, I know. “Fundies” don’t worship the bible either.
My point was/is that on this forum there are as many ridiculous straw man arguments leveled against protestants as there are against Catholics.
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My point was/is that on this forum there are as many ridiculous straw man arguments leveled against protestants as there are against Catholics.
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John1
Guest
I agree. Every once in awhile someone will actually come up with some verifiable history to back up their point or explain their point of view understandably (whether I agree or not), and it makes the discussion quite interesting.
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injo
Guest
Dear John1
Thanks a alot for your testimony. it has made a clarification to my doubt about how to read the scriptures.
I believe that there is always “personal” or “communal” way of interpretation to the scriptures according to the situation and condition of the person or the community. so, sometimes, we cannot avoid what called misinterpretaion or literary reading to it,
as you have shared thru out yout testimony.
one more question is then how to read the scriptures correctly?
or, how to avoid literary intrerpretation to the scriptures?
thanks!
injo.
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John1
Guest
Hi Injo,
Wow, that’s a good question! I would agree with some of the others to the point of reading the Bible in context. “In context” meaning that any verse usually has several verses both before and after that can give a broader understanding of what the person was actually saying. There are many good examples of this, but take Matthew 7:1-2 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."
If you only read this, then you would assume that Jesus is saying “don’t judge anybody”, and some people have that understanding. If you read the passage in context with 7:3-5
"3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.
If you look at the previous chapter, 6:1-5, Jesus is warning people not to be hypocrites.
Another way to try and better understand the passage is to look what the Apostles said and did in some of their letters. In 1 Corinthians 6:11-13 "11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders?** Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?** 13 God judges [2] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
How could an Apostle of Christ teach anything contrary to Christ’s teaching? Our belief in Jesus Christ comes from what the Apostles passed down in their written letters and in their traditions. Of course we also have to be weary of people who twist the teachings of the Apostles as Peter said of those who even at that time in history were twisting the words of Paul.
Reading someones commentary or exegesis can sometimes give you different views, and talking with your priest or preacher may give you some insights, but most of all pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit.
Always remember that most every Christian, if not all, are seeking the Truth and a better understanding of Jesus. Treat others the way that you would want them to treat you, even when they are not being nice to you. Unfortunately sometimes I’m a hypocrite in that regard, but I’m working on it.
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juliasmith
Guest
This issue was one I faced just this weekend actually. In regards to the discrepancy between the birth narratives in Matthew and in Luke. I saw I had a few choices in how to deal with this.
- I could throw it all away…the Bible is all a lie, a (in)complete work of fiction.
- I could try to invent some fantastical details in order to ‘fill in the gaps’.
- I could apply some intelligence, realize the different styles and times of the authors and accept both for what they are…and not allow the differences to take away from the work Christ did on the cross.
po18guy
Well-known member
One caution: many of the footnotes in Catholic bibles have changed in the past few decades, reflecting worldly influence. This was noticeable when comparing footnotes from a 1970 Catholic Bible to those of the 90s. I avoid many of the footnotes, as they began to drift away from the faith and are no longer consistent with church teaching.
Anyway, an OT basis for the teaching of purgatory is the book of 2 Maccabees.
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bpcatholic
Guest
I notice how fundamentalists try to take revelation “literally.” My fundamentalist messianic jewish whatever frined said that Revelation appears to be symbolic because John did not know how to discribe the things happening, such as an airplane, at the time. IMHO, that is a very narrow-minded view and somewhat “egotistical” for lack of a better word. It is saying that we are int the times to properly interpret Revelation but those before us where unable to. Does this make sense? 
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John1
Guest
Hi Po18guy,
Thanks for the OT information. I don’t really have an opinion about the concept of pugatory, but I do know that if I were going to speak about it I would use some different passages, like the parable Jesus told about the slave that owed his master a large sum but he couldn’t pay, so the master forgave the debt, but then the slave would not forgive a small debt that a fellow slave owed him. When the master found out he had the slave thrown in prison until he could pay every last cent…and several other passages that could support the idea of purgatory and still be in context with the surrounding passages. The passage that he was using from 1 Corinthians is not talking about purgatory, or the OSAS idea. It is reffering to the Apostles that are teaching about Christ, the foundation, and even if they build on that foundation with anything less than pure, refined “stuff”, even though all the “stuff” that they built wth is burned up when it’s tested with fire, the Apostle will still be saved as long as the foundation was Jesus.
What bothered me about the incident was his complete lack of respect and patience with someone asking a question. He wanted to “put me in my place” and then made some off hand remark that I don’t quite remember exactly, but it got everyone laughing, except for me naturally. He’s not the only one who’s ever used that tactic before when I’ve tried to ask questions at some of the different churches. Yes, it made me uncomfortable and it was a little embarassing to be laughed at, but I don’t “go along, to get along” and I’m not easily intimidated. Out of respect for the others I just let it go and didn’t ask him anymore questions.
I don’t mean to be divisive when I ask questions or make comments. The reason I wanted to state that is because I know what the Bible says about someone who is means to be divisive,
and that’s never my intent, however, you do need to be able to ask questions.
po18guy
Well-known member
Your assignment is the most difficult to accept of all: pray for him, as you know not what battles he is fighting. I hate to think of myself on my worst days, hate even more that those around me se me in such a state. I have certainly needed prayer lately.
Christ’s peace.
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John1
Guest
Amen! I’ll pray for you and I’ll pray for him!
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
There may be difficulties, but not discrepancies. What is the difficulty you are referring to?
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Newbie2
Guest
I’ve seen a lot of that. When some say “The Bible says…”, they mean exactly that, not “God says through his word…”.
Seen a lot of that too. Very easy to do since there is no guidelines on biblical interpretation in many Fundamentalist and “Bible-only” sects.
It gets even more confusing for me, when as in Lutheranism there is sometimes a “It’s not biblical” bent, while still clinging to remnants of a sacramental “extra-biblical” doctrine.
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Orogeny
Guest
I agree that our Protestant friends have a slightly different way of reading scriptures than Catholics do. But I started this thread specifically to get the thoughts of our fellow Catholics who read scriptures the same way Protestants do. I have recently run across quite a few Catholics on other threads that take the fundamentalist approach to scripture and I am curious as to what they think about the document I referenced in the initial post.
Peace
Tim
Peace
Tim
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patg
Guest
Tim - just for your reference there is an excellent booklet on this subject by Ronald Witherup S.S. titled *Biblical Fundamentalism, What Every Catholic Should Know *(imprimatur & nihil obstat). It is widely available, inexpensive, and covers the subject well (and considered heresy, of course, by those who disagree).
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michaelcollins
Guest
as a former protestant I have often heard that used, catholics worship Mary. Do you know the differance between reverance and worship? I have never seen worship at any of the many, many catholic services I have attended in the 12 years I’ve been Catholic, but I have seen reverance. Also see the discovery channel or history channel program from this year on Mary where it documents the changing protestant view towards Christ’s mother.
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John1
Guest
Maybe everyone should read through “Die Verbum” of Vatican II, written by Pope Paul VI to get a balanced view of what exactly is being said by the Roman Catholic Church and not just personal opinions.
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John1
Guest
To address the document you mentioned on the OP. It’s a somewhat comprehensive document that, IMO, sounds a little biased. I think that it sort of goes off on that “Protestant bashing” tangent when the Reformation Movement was mentioned. I’m a member of the RCC, but I really get tired of the constant demeaning statements, on both sides. I find it very difficult or impossible to beleive that all the Reformers used the “Fundamentalist” approach to Bible interpretation. I’ve studied with several Protestant denominations and I personally don’t recall any that fit the description of “Fundamentalists” mentioned in the document. I know that most Catholics don’t worship Mary and feel offended when “outsiders” infer that they do, so insulting our fellow Christians with “parroted” phrases like “fundies” is probably not a good idea and it really goes against a “fundamental” teaching of Christianity. I doubt that most of the people who are being reffered to as “Fundamentalist” are even aware of how this document defines a “Fundamentalist”.
Thanks for the link to that document, but I see it as borderline offensive to offensive. Remember "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle. Proverbs 18:19
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michaelcollins
Guest
I have a different viewpoint. I was raised as a baptists which resulted in my becoming agnostic. The church led me back to faith. My wife and I have headed the RCIA program, I have served as alector for years and we are strong catholics. My family has continued in the baptists church and have the typical anticatholic bias, not believing most catholics are christians or that catholics are going to heaven. My wife sees nothing wrong with attending the services with my family. I have the view of most priests that if you are going to spend time with God it should be at mass, if there is no mass then there are other activities that can be undertaken other than attending protestant services. My wife was also involved in a nondenominational bible study which had members who of course were anti catholic and literalists.
In a nutshell I think these are not good activites for a catholic to engage in and believe there are quite a few of the same type of activites within the church, I do not understand why a catholic would rather attend a protestant bible study than a catholic bible study. I don’t want my children participating, I send them to catholic schools not protestant schools.
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John1
Guest
Hi michaelcollins,
I think we’re getting a little off the topic, butI can understand your position even though I don’t agree with it. I feel that , especially considering Vatican II, the emphasis should be on a reconciliation with our Protestant brothers and sisters as well as the other Catholic sects. The demeaning rhetoric that continues from all sides needs to stop. A fundamental teaching of Christianity is that we don’t trade insults for insults, of course I realize this is nothing new, and has been going on since the beginning of Christianity. The Church that Jesus started was His Church, and the follewrs of Christ were first called “Christians” at Antioch. The term “catholic”, meaning universal, was not known to be in use until the second century. Probably one of the best books, outside the Bible, for early Christianity is “The History of the Church” by Eusebius. When you read the book, two things become readily apparent, first there have been a lot of disputes in Christianity from the earliest times, and secondly they reffered to each other as “Christians”. I know that it’s popular today to say “what religion do you belong to” when the real question should be “are you a Christian and what group do you belong to”. Our religion is Christianity and there are many different groups of Christians that don’t agree on every single point , and as a matter of fact, I bet that there are points of contention in each group. Overall however, I think Christians have more in common than not, at least more of the essential points in common. I think that there are hate mongers in each group also, that prey on the weaknesses of others to make them react negatively to any type of reconcilation. St. Paul tried to warn Christians in 1 Corinthians about dividing and one saying that they follow one Apostle while another says they follow a different Apostle. Paul said that we, the Apostles, all follow Christ. Of course, Paul split with Barnabas over a dispute, so maybe it’s like Paul says ,we don’t see things clearly now, but when Jesus comes back we will see perfectly".
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michaelcollins
Guest
As you can see I am rather new to this board. What has surprised me has been the number of protestants that are on the forum and who are here to tell me what i as a catholic believe, why i am wrong and to attempt to convert me. I have already been converted and it was the other way. I have no animosity to other christian groups, I like Joel Osteen who a lot of protestants criticize because he does not preach enough hell. My god is a loving god who focuses us on forgiving.
I am not interested in 1., converting to protestanism, 2., having my catholic faith become more protestant like. I dont feel ,well yes I do feel like they are nice enough people but I would not want my children marrying one. i would prefer my children marry catholics.
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