Fundamentalist Mindset

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Documentation in support of your allegation Hunter?
It’s really disgraceful that Catholics keep demanding “documentation” for this. The documentation has been supplied over and over again.

That the Catholic Church, between the 12th century and the 19th, condemned heretics to death and handed them over to the secular authorities for execution is undisputed historical fact. It should cease to be treated as a matter of dispute on this forum. Continually caviling at so basic and uncontroversial an assertion is a form of historical revisionism that smacks of the very relativism orthodox Catholics rightly reject.

Edwin
 
Which of your sources gives you this particular figure? It seems a bit high, though that’s not to say it’s inaccurate.

Edwin
The Galileo Affair. Im shur most of those 75000 cases were dismissed or found not guilty, as most cases in that day were. It said many revived lighter sentences. Also some of the 1250 death sentences may have been commuted or otherwise removed because your right that is rather high, that’s almost 2 ppl a month.
 
The Galileo Affair. Im shur most of those 75000 cases were dismissed or found not guilty, as most cases in that day were. It said many revived lighter sentences. Also some of the 1250 death sentences may have been commuted or otherwise removed because your right that is rather high, that’s almost 2 ppl a month.
Kamen estimated 2-3000 deaths for the Spanish Inquisition, and most of those occurred in a roughly similar period, I believe (the death count drops off very heavily after the mid-sixteenth century). My response was mostly based in my impression that the Roman Inquisition was considerably less bloody than the Spanish, but that impression may itself be based on the older, higher estimates of the Spanish Inquisition’s death count.

Edwin
 
Kamen estimated 2-3000 deaths for the Spanish Inquisition, and most of those occurred in a roughly similar period, I believe (the death count drops off very heavily after the mid-sixteenth century). My response was mostly based in my impression that the Roman Inquisition was considerably less bloody than the Spanish, but that impression may itself be based on the older, higher estimates of the Spanish Inquisition’s death count.

Edwin
I think your assumption would be right, especialy because the Spanish inquisition had power over the entire Iberian peninsula. It didnt offer any numbers on actual exicutions but only on sentences. If Bruno was the last then others after him were probably commuted.
 
It’s really disgraceful that Catholics keep demanding “documentation” for this. The documentation has been supplied over and over again.

That the Catholic Church, between the 12th century and the 19th, condemned heretics to death and handed them over to the secular authorities for execution is undisputed historical fact. It should cease to be treated as a matter of dispute on this forum. Continually caviling at so basic and uncontroversial an assertion is a form of historical revisionism that smacks of the very relativism orthodox Catholics rightly reject.

Edwin
Then stick to Truth and don’t take the bait of diversion.
 
It’s really disgraceful that Catholics keep demanding “documentation” for this. The documentation has been supplied over and over again.

That the Catholic Church, between the 12th century and the 19th, condemned heretics to death and handed them over to the secular authorities for execution is undisputed historical fact. It should cease to be treated as a matter of dispute on this forum. Continually caviling at so basic and uncontroversial an assertion is a form of historical revisionism that smacks of the very relativism orthodox Catholics rightly reject.

Edwin
I don’t think the Inquisition is treated as a matter of dispute, but we, as Catholics, need to know what we’re dealing with when someone makes those charges. I’m sure you would agree that when protestants bring up this topic their comments almost always smack of “urban legend.” Example:
There was a time when the CC believed and taught that everything in the bible was literal. And if you thought otherwise you were branded a heretic and could be burned at the stake. So when did that all change?
The implication here is that the evil Whore of Babylon was hunting down bible-believing evangelical Protestants and slaughtering them in large numbers. It’s a caricature that calls for a response from Catholics, and the first order of business is to determine what we’re dealing with when asked: “When did you stop beating your wife?”
 
I think it would be good to get a working defination so people could know what the issues are. I did some research on line to find out what Christian Fundamentalism is. It was started by Protestant theologians to defend what they saw as Protestant orthodoxy. Their focus was on the Divinity of Jesus Christ, his Virgin Birth, of the historicity of Biblical narratives, Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch, and of Biblical inerrancy. They were trying to counter higher-critical theories of their day, to the falsity of theological systems such as Christian Science, “Millennial Darwinism”, Mormonism, to the errors of the Roman Catholic Church.

There is also Catholic Fundamentalism which stresses the need for adherence to literal interpretation of Vatican declarations, particularly those pronounced by the Pope.

These are the five basic tenants of Fundamentalism.

The inerrancy of the Bible

The literal nature of the Biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ’s miracles and the Creation account in Genesis.

The Virgin Birth of Christ

The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ

The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross
 
Historically, fundamentalism was a reactionary movement against the growing apostasy and liberalism within Protestant America in the late 19th, and early 20th century. But it goes much deeper than that. The fundamentalist movement is a direct ancestor of the ‘revivalism’ of Early America, which in turn was an ancestor to Romanticism.
Romanticism was an artistic, literary, and intellectual movement that originated around the middle of the 18th century in Western Europe. It was partly a revolt against the social, and political norms of the Enlightenment, and a reaction against scientific rationalization of nature in art and literature. In the 17th century the shift was toward the subjective and the inner “experience” of being “born again”.
The Enlightenment was an eighteenth-century movement in Europe and America, also called the “Age of Reason, which advocated human reason as the primary basis of authority. Protestantism has always swung uncomfortably between both poles.
Fundamentalist focuses on an expressive “experience”, whereas the Reformed or Protestant tradition is focused on educating the people of God. A strong emphasis is placed on the mind, and cognitive understanding.
Simply put, fundamentalism focuses on the emotions (a clue as to why they love the term “fighting fundamentalists”), while the Reformed focuses on the intellect or the mind.
A fact that can be easily observed here on CAF.
 
Here is another interesting fact that might explain why fundamentalists react the way the do when confronted on how they view the Bible.
From about the 18th century on Christianity was influenced by Common Sense philosophy. This philosophy/scientific paradigm argues that phenomena can be separated into observable facts. Using their basic senses, humans can come to a universal, objective understanding of these natural and external laws and truths.
This was huge during the Enlightenment, affecting science, art, and religion. American Christian thought reflected this; Christians believed that through exercising one’s common sense, individuals could read the Bible and come to an understanding of God.
This evolved into romanticism, developing theories about naturalism, subjectivity, and the experience of a phenomena (the idea of a thing, rather than the thing itself).
So in this sense, its not so much that fundamentalists are anti-intellectual. But their movement is based in a different intellectual paradigm.
Christian fundamentalism as a uniquely American phenomenon, shaped by a cultural experience and its reactions to social and political changes.
Fundamentalism’s roots go back to the 1870s, shortly after the Civil War, in an era of American prosperity and dominance.
At that time there were philosophical, scientific, and ideological influences on Christianity. As cultural ideologies shifted, Christian leaders reacted, going along with the changes, opposing them, and/or integrating them into their movement.
So Christians faced liberalization within their movement and broader social changes that affected their practice and acceptance of changes in their faith.
 
I didn’t read all responses yet because I wanted to give you MHO with no influence before. I am a former Fundamentalist Protestant and current Catholic.

Let me give you some background. Both of my now divorced parents are Episcopalian and I was baptised an Episcopalian, but have stepped foot in that church about 5 times in my life(I’m not even kidding). So it’s safe to say I didn’t grow up in church. I had heard of God and knew some things about Jesus but never belonged to any church organization. Fast forward to my senior yr of High School: I got “saved” at 17, but found it empty. I went to this church because I had friends there and was going through an incredibly difficult time. I was told that if I got saved and accepted Jesus as my savior then I could overcome these difficulties. So I started to attend and did for quite a few months. Went to youth group, went every Sunday, spent time with the people my age there…the whole shootin match. Then I started to feel like I needed to become this perfect person. I had to walk on egg shells around them and even felt intimidated. Then in college I met my now husband. He is a cradle Catholic. Italian Catholic on mom’s side, Irish Catholic on dad’s. My husband was non practicing at the time(he was 19), but came with me one day to my church. He wanted to meet my pastor because he was curious having never been exposed to anything other than the RCC. We met with my pastor and my pastor said that because he is Catholic he had to accept Christ or he was taking me to hell with him! Well you know what they say about first impressions right:blush:…My husband was ticked off and I was mortified. I walked out of that office and never stepped foot in that church again(that was 7 yrs ago). I decided to try his church and he agreed to go with me. My first time there was like WOW this feels so right. I converted 3 yrs later to Catholicism.

So for me it started out as searching for God simply for healing from the emotional pain I was experiencing to finding God in all aspects. I still have many friends from there and every now and then we get into a heated discussion:thumbsup:. I think for many it’s a sense of community as those typically tend to be huge and it’s pretty easy if your willing to sacrifice who you truly are. For them it’s you except Christ, get saved and live your life by biblical standings. But for us it’s much more. We are actively involved in a lot of things. We are doing stuff all hr long at Mass. We have Holy Days of Obligation that commemorate vital aspects of our faith…and I just think Fundamentalists don’t get it
 
Two things…

Simplicity and certainty…

Now - before anyone jumps in and tells me what is wrong with this…just know that this is my opinion as to what is attractive to a fundamentalist “Bible believing” christian outlook…

Peace
James
Agree with this. Simplicity, certainty, and as another poster said ‘knowing’ you are on the right side - but this does not explain why people want simplicity etc.

At a more philosophical level - Culture ad upbringing - people who are brought up this way will obviously think it is ‘right,’ and will be reluctant to change. There are also repercussions for those who desire change - ostracism from their family/‘friends,’ guilt - what if it’s true and I’m doing something really bad by thinking it may not be?

At a simplistic level - there are people who are perfectly happy with it and see no need to question it. I have a fundamentalist friend who couldn’t care less how long the creative days where, or whether or not there was an Ice-Age and sees no need to think about it.
 
Agree with this. Simplicity, certainty, and as another poster said ‘knowing’ you are on the right side - but this does not explain why people want simplicity etc.

At a more philosophical level - Culture ad upbringing - people who are brought up this way will obviously think it is ‘right,’ and will be reluctant to change. There are also repercussions for those who desire change - ostracism from their family/‘friends,’ guilt - what if it’s true and I’m doing something really bad by thinking it may not be?

At a simplistic level - there are people who are perfectly happy with it and see no need to question it. I have a fundamentalist friend who couldn’t care less how long the creative days where, or whether or not there was an Ice-Age and sees no need to think about it.
There is also the embarrassment to realizing you put your bet on the wrong horse.
Pride confines people into denying they could possibly be wrong.
 
There is also the embarrassment to realizing you put your bet on the wrong horse.
Pride confines people into denying they could possibly be wrong.
You have a point there. Fundamentalism has come under more and more scrutiny in the last lot of years, and people within the fundamentalist ranks are starting to question - not God, not Jesus but the literal approach to scripture.

I suppose nobody wants to admit their interpretation of scripture may be flawed. If the foundation of a persons faith is a literal interpretation of scripture, questioning that questions their entire faith. As such, as you say, scripture not being literal is tantamount to putting your bet on the ‘wrong horse,’ and no one wants to admit that. I agree pride confined people, but I’m not convinced pride confines everyone. There are people who can’t accept they may have backed the wrong horse because it’s too much of a shock for them - if you know what I mean.
 
Oh, really? :rolleyes: If God doesn’t tell stories, then what, pray tell, do you make of Jesus’ parables? Those were indeed figurative stories used to convey religious truths about God and Heaven.

.
Noahs Ark & the Genesis account are not listed as the parables of Jesus by the church. There is no “the parable of noahs ark or the"the parable of Genesis” in the NT.
 
You have a point there. Fundamentalism has come under more and more scrutiny in the last lot of years, and people within the fundamentalist ranks are starting to question - not God, not Jesus but the literal approach to scripture.

I suppose nobody wants to admit their interpretation of scripture may be flawed. If the foundation of a persons faith is a literal interpretation of scripture, questioning that questions their entire faith. As such, as you say, scripture not being literal is tantamount to putting your bet on the ‘wrong horse,’ and no one wants to admit that. I agree pride confined people, but I’m not convinced pride confines everyone. There are people who can’t accept they may have backed the wrong horse because it’s too much of a shock for them - if you know what I mean.
For me, the more I read the Bible, the less of a fundamentalist I became. The dispensationalist interpretation made no sense. Much of what I read in “commentaries” simply contained a world view that was opposite of what I was reading. Like many revisionists, they simply did not understand the Biblical world, Old or New Testament.
Another aspect was seeing the result of thier “born again” philosophy simply not playing out in reality.
When faced with that, fundamentalists simply slip into denial. That’s called cognitive dissonance, acting differently than who you are. It creates anxiety, tension and problems in functioning in society.
 
Noahs Ark & the Genesis account are not listed as the parables of Jesus by the church. There is no “the parable of noahs ark or the"the parable of Genesis” in the NT.
First, where did I say that the Genesis creation narratives or the Genesis flood narrative were parables?

Jericho said that God doesn’t tell stories, which is a false assertion. Jesus told parables, which were indeed stories which used figurative language to convey deep, religious truths about God and the Kingdom of Heaven.

Second, it doesn’t matter if there is no “the parable of Noah’s Ark” or “the parable of Genesis” in the New Testament. Both Old Testament accounts can still make use of figurative language. Further, since I don’t believe the Flood was global or that the days of creation were literally six, 24-hour days, I believe that both Old Testament accounts do make use of figurative language.
 
First, where did I say that the Genesis creation narratives or the Genesis flood narrative were parables?

Jericho said that God doesn’t tell stories, which is a false assertion. Jesus told parables, which were indeed stories which used figurative language to convey deep, religious truths about God and the Kingdom of Heaven.

Second, it doesn’t matter if there is no “the parable of Noah’s Ark” or “the parable of Genesis” in the New Testament. Both Old Testament accounts can still make use of figurative language. Further, since I don’t believe the Flood was global or that the days of creation were literally six, 24-hour days, I believe that both Old Testament accounts do make use of figurative language.
The flood or Genesis is not disproved in the NT. It can not be shown that Jesus is making a correction by saying the flood didn’t happen or Genesis was just a story you could understand about origins. The reason “the parables of Jesus” are separated by calling them just that, is because they are fictional stories to explain a point, while as the rest of the NT is considered actual events, otherwise you wouldn’t have to separate them by calling them the parables.

Yes a parable is a story but Noahs Ark & Genesis are not categorized as one of them in the NT. That would be an inference. The church does allow you to believe the flood and Genesis are allegories which is a choice issue and not a definite parable (story) from the NT.
 
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