Fundamentalist Mindset

[stewstew03]

…This necessarily leads to antinomianism–the view that a truly saved person may live in wickedness for years and die unrepentant, and still go to heaven. This is held by some OSAS advocates–mostly Southern Baptists in my experience–but is repellent to the vast majority of Christians, including OSAS advocates…

My experience has been the exact opposite, and methinks this is the riddle that is Southern Baptism.

 

[maltmom]

But they look at salvation as a once for all zap, not an ongoing process. So they will preach OSAS, but when the person shows no fruit, they come up with a new acronym:
NSITFP, never saved in the first place.

My ex-husband and I almost had a fight about this and we never fought. We were both Baptist, but different flavors. I guess I really was OSAS. He was OS, back slide, lose salvation, have to be saved again until you get it right. I responded that a person like that wasn’t saved to begin with that one couldn’t lose their salvation. WOW, I’ve change and have come a long way.

 

[Contarini]

My experience has been the exact opposite, and methinks this is the riddle that is Southern Baptism.

Opposite to which part? Do you mean that in your experience most of the people who hold to the antinomian view are not SBs?

I think that as the Reformed influence in the SBC has grown, antinomianism has declined. My experience with SBs is mostly from East Tennessee in the 80s and early 90s.

Edwin

 

[JustaServant]

My ex-husband and I almost had a fight about this and we never fought. We were both Baptist, but different flavors. I guess I really was OSAS. He was OS, back slide, lose salvation, have to be saved again until you get it right. I responded that a person like that wasn’t saved to begin with that one couldn’t lose their salvation. WOW, I’ve change and have come a long way.

Well, I can attest, and many others on this forum can as well. that NSITFP usually arises when a person (like me) becomes Catholic. Suddenly, you were never a Christian at all. The “zap” didn’t “take”. So they encourace the “real thing”.
To get saved “again” you have to essentially deny your relationship with Christ ever existed; it was all in your head; the last several years following, fellowshipping, and in my case, PASTORING was pure imagination.
What they don’t realize is that reveals more about thier system of salvation than they will admit. Is salvation in the “sinners prayer”. the “altar call”, the Holy Spirit “zap”?
My response was simple.
I always thought salvation was in Christ.

 

[maltmom]

Good answer!

One of my close friends has been friends with his Baptist preacher since they were in high school. They are in their late 40’s now. They knew each other during the preacher’s really, really wild days. So my friend knows the before and after. He also had a good friend in college suddenly leave one day without saying a word. A couple of days later he received a letter telling him that his friend left for seminary and was going to be a priest. He is now the priest at one of the churches I attend. My friend had a discussion with his pastor about the Catholic church. He’s never been anti-Catholic b/c his friend b/c a priest and he had a lot of respect for him and his beliefs. The amazing thing was the pastor’s answer. It’s not an answer I would expect many Baptist preachers to make. He said that there are a lot of wonderful Christians who are Catholic. They love the Lord. I can’t judge their hearts, just as I can’t judge that of anyone in our church. I can only see the life the lead. He went on the say that Protestants and Catholics have a lot in common and that he prayed that we could all look more to the things we have in common than the differences. This man is borderline fundamentalist in thinking. It truly shocked me.

 

[stewstew03]

Opposite to which part? Do you mean that in your experience most of the people who hold to the antinomian view are not SBs?

I think that as the Reformed influence in the SBC has grown, antinomianism has declined. My experience with SBs is mostly from East Tennessee in the 80s and early 90s.

Edwin

Sorry, I wasn’t clear in my response. I meant that in my experience (and I still occasionally attend a SBC-affiliated church) most Southern Baptists do not hold the antinomian view. But the SBC seems to be going through some changes recently with the battle for hearts and minds between the baptist-Arminians and baptist-Calvinists.

 

[JustaServant]

I’d like to take this topic in a different direction and here’s why:
Over on another forum, a forum for survivors of the worst kind of fundamentalism, a related topic has shifted to fundamentalism and addictions (alcohol and drugs).
Many people who have attested to being adult children of alcoholics (ACOA) have, at some point in thier lives, been involved with or attracted to fundamentalism. What is the connection?
My take:
Since many ACOAs grow up with a fear they themselves will become alcoholics, it seems only logical they would associate themselves with a movement that stipulated people not drink.
Rules can be a safety valve.
Thoughts?

 

[Contarini]

I’d like to take this topic in a different direction and here’s why:
Over on another forum, a forum for survivors of the worst kind of fundamentalism, a related topic has shifted to fundamentalism and addictions (alcohol and drugs).
Many people who have attested to being adult children of alcoholics (ACOA) have, at some point in thier lives, been involved with or attracted to fundamentalism. What is the connection?
My take:
Since many ACOAs grow up with a fear they themselves will become alcoholics, it seems only logical they would associate themselves with a movement that stipulated people not drink.
Rules can be a safety valve.
Thoughts?

Right. I think the specific rule against drinking is part of the story, but another part is the general sense of safety provided by fundamentalist rules in general.

Edwin

 

[JustaServant]

Right. I think the specific rule against drinking is part of the story, but another part is the general sense of safety provided by fundamentalist rules in general.

Edwin

It’s a lot easier to have outward rules keep you in control than learn how to control yourself inwardly. Much of that is fear. If an ACOA can only see the world through the lens of thier experience in a dysfunctional home, fundamentalism is going to be just the ticket to cusion them from the allful world around them.

 

[Qwestions]

Many adult children of alcoholics NEVER had adult parents in their lives if both parents were usually overimbibed; instead, their childhood years were robbed, leaving THEM to parent themselves, and, in some cases, their parents, too. Having a religion call the shots relieves them of this responsibility, and, at least, while they’re surrounded by the congregation, they can become children for that little while–even though they may have to resume the mantle of parent to their parents when they get back home–since many adult children either live with or near the parents they’ve had to parent and bail out of alcohol-induced messes. In effect, association with fellow congregants on Sundays and during midweek is a sort of respite for the caregiver that they’ve become.

 

[JustaServant]

Many adult children of alcoholics NEVER had adult parents in their lives if both parents were usually overimbibed; instead, their childhood years were robbed, leaving THEM to parent themselves, and, in some cases, their parents, too. Having a religion call the shots relieves them of this responsibility, and, at least, while they’re surrounded by the congregation, they can become children for that little while–even though they may have to resume the mantle of parent to their parents when they get back home–since many adult children either live with or near the parents they’ve had to parent and bail out of alcohol-induced messes. In effect, association with fellow congregants on Sundays and during midweek is a sort of respite for the caregiver that they’ve become.

That is one aspect, yes. The person you describe would be the “family hero” among ACOAs. Many fundamentalists I have met fall into the “lost child” category. They are easily influenced by the misrepresentations of fundamentalism and put up mental walls when confronted with an opposing view. They simply will NOT believe anything other than what they have been told.

 

[Georgia]

That is one aspect, yes. The person you describe would be the “family hero” among ACOAs. Many fundamentalists I have met fall into the “lost child” category. They are easily influenced by the misrepresentations of fundamentalism and put up mental walls when confronted with an opposing view. They simply will NOT believe anything other than what they have been told.

I agree. That fits with my own experience.

When I was growing up, I noticed some things just didn’t fit. I was told something along the lines of “The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it.”

I remember asking a preacher why we held a certain belief, the topic has escaped my memory, and his reply was “You have to be convicted of that.” I heard that plenty of times in my life. How do you proceed with a discussion past that point? It gets down to personal interpretation. Anyone who disagreed with us on anything to do with faith or practice was dismissed as not really believing in the Bible. We really did not have to think past that. Others did not believe in the plainly written Bible and we did.

 

[Holly3278]

I think people like Fundamentalism because it seems to be quite simple.

One thing I never really understood about Fundamentalism though is the fact that while they insist on taking the Bible literally, they refuse to take what the Bible says about the Eucharist in the Gospel of Saint John chapter 6 literally.

 

[MJE]

I cannot quote St Thomas Aquinas exactly, but he wrote something like all virtue springs from moderation. Wisdom of the saints is always an antidote to the fundamentalist mindset.

 

[JustaServant]

I agree. That fits with my own experience.

When I was growing up, I noticed some things just didn’t fit. I was told something along the lines of “The Bible says it. I believe it. That settles it.”

I remember asking a preacher why we held a certain belief, the topic has escaped my memory, and his reply was “You have to be convicted of that.” I heard that plenty of times in my life. How do you proceed with a discussion past that point? It gets down to personal interpretation. Anyone who disagreed with us on anything to do with faith or practice was dismissed as not really believing in the Bible. We really did not have to think past that. Others did not believe in the plainly written Bible and we did.

Yeah, that “conviction” routine got very old very quickly for me too.
Another was “burden”.
I remember hearing one preacher say he had a “burden” to plant a church in (I won’t say the town, but it was the weathiest section of the city). Funny, none of these dudes ever had a “burden” for the inner city.

 

[VeronicaM]

Contrary to contemporary culture, truth is not an easy thing establish irrevocably or even find. Truth is often nuanced and subject to ambiguity and one who genuinely seeks truth will accept this, and why they are considered desirable. Having said that, just because something lacks nuance or ambiguity does not mean it is not true. So no, it is not the end of the argument. Lack of nuance or ambiguity is not the only reason for rejection of fundamentalism.

Interesting observation.

 

[JustaServant]

Interesting observation.

Thread’s a year old, but I won’t alert the mod.

I really can’t add anything to Minky’s excellent post, except to say the “certainty” is the affliction of youth and inexperience.