Fundamentalist objection to statues?

[JDGaney]

Hey, I know that we get the idea that building a statue that represents something from the plan of Salvation is not dangerous on the grounds that the Israelites were commanded to make a bronze serpent and had angels constructed on the Ark of the Covenant…

But recently a Fundamentalist told me that it is still bad to make a statue, referencing the golden calf, and that it was used to represent God in Exodus 32:5 - Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord…

Are we doing the same thing?

Also, I know that we say that God commanded us to make statues, therefore statues are not bad, but didn’t God also command us to kill? Therefore, is killing not bad?

 

[bzkoss236]

He apparently can’t read, because that scripture passage clearly indicates that they are worshiping the calf as a god, as if the golden calf itself was God, and not a representation of God. That is why the golden calf was wrong. We don’t worship the statues. Ask you friend if he worships the bible when he prays with it in his hands and I’m sure he’ll say no. The bible puts his attention on God, and so do the statues we have.

 

[Christopher1290]

Statues are fine. Nobody worships the statue itself. It represents something that we know is true and real, unlike a statue of a false god.

 

[po18guy]

Ignorance of scripture. God commanded Moses to make images of the Cherubim to adorn the Ark of the Covenant. God commanded Moses to make a bronze image of a snake so that those who looked upon it would not die from snakebites in the desert. Your friend is made in the image and like ness of God. Does that mean that your friend is evil?

 

[R_C]

God is not an extremist.

 

[sirach2v4]

The fundamentalist objection to statues is based on their rejection of Church authority.

A church building does not have to have statues, you don’t need to have a statue of Mary, Jesus, or a saint in your home, etc.

In the oldest Christian churches that still exist, there are representations of people, for example, in mosaics or paintings on the walls.

This was done and is still done to help teach lessons about the faith.

Certainly, it can be abused and it can be controversial, as well. For example, Mary is depicted around the world possessing the racial characteristics of the local population. So, one should not be mislead about the image of Mary as a young European woman, for example. I personally find that representation more offensive than anything else.

Fundamentalists would have you believe that their authority is the Bible alone, about which much has been discussed elsewhere on this website. Strangely, the Bible never SAYS that stuff about the “Bible alone.”

In Catholic writings, you can find that Church doctrine (teaching) is based on Divine Revelation (scripture and sacred tradition) coupled with the teaching authority (established by Christ) of the Church. So, keep that in mind, scripture, tradition, and magisterial (teaching) authority.

Of the many inconsistencies of Fundamentalists and Protestants, general, they declare defiantly that they don’t don’t believe in tradition or magisterial authority. But, if you take a good look at them, each denomination has its own tradition of teaching, and it has its own experts who will tell you what the Bible means. So, we ALL have scripture, tradition, and magisterial (authority) [even Jews]. The real goal is to understand WHICH tradition and magisterial authority you believe in. Right off the bat, I reject those who are in denial about tradition and magisterial authority – they’re pulling your leg.

IF they don’t believe in magisterial authority, then why should you believe anything they say? They should merely open the Bible and read it, then sit down. If they’re telling you what the Bible “means” the ball game is over, in principle.

There’s much more to be said on this subject in a formal way, but just intuitively, they’re wrong. I can’t think of the name of the early English reformer who asserted that everyone should be able to interpret the Bible for themselves – EXCEPT CATHOLICS! Duh, sure.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

No.
At the time of the Golden Calf, God had not revealed an image of himself; The forbidding to make an image of him was based on the fact that no semblance to anything was seen on Mount Sainai when God spoke to them; that’s why they were forbidden to make images.

When Jesus came, Scriptures say he is the perfect “image” (icon) of God; and upon the mountain at the transfiguration, we revisit the mountain with Moses and Elijah both there – and the raiment turning white (as did Moses’ face upon the mountain when speaking with God in the O.T.) – and we hear God’s voice; and we see his Glory in God the Son.

The commandment’s reason, given in the O.T. was simply abolished by the incarnation. It no longer applies.

IN the second place, the event with Aaron is about the techincal breach of the Law; and AAron’s building of the altar was not in front of the Calf, per se. The Altar was meant to draw people back to the proper worship of God – and if you read the text carefully, you’ll realize he was mocked and afraid that his life was in danger.

The phrase “they rose up to play” is inaccurate; for the word “Isaac” which we want to translate as “play” actually means to make “sport”. It is was the philistines were doing when they poked out Sampson’s eyes; and I can show many other examples.

I can explain this in detail if it is important to you, and show the words and context and scripture quotes; but the passages subtleties are lost in translation is the bottom line.

Also, I know that we say that God commanded us to make statues, therefore statues are not bad, but didn’t God also command us to kill? Therefore, is killing not bad?

We are commanded not to murder. But even the law of Moses had the death penalty under God’s direction with Judges presiding. Hence, it is wrong in General to kill – but it is not wrong to execute someone under judgment in the mediated covenant between Moses and God. (We are no longer in that covenant, so the logic has changed somewhat. The authority to kill is reduced by our present circumstances – although it exists.)

Another example would be the Judgment of confession for mortal sins, which means death. An example of this is the case of Annanias and Sophira in the Acts of the Apostles, where the full power of the priests binding and loosing of sin (confessional) is brought to bear. I am not, note, saying they were damned… but they suffered the death penalty on account of sin.

 

[chosen_people]

Ignorance of scripture. God commanded Moses to make images of the Cherubim to adorn the Ark of the Covenant. God commanded Moses to make a bronze image of a snake so that those who looked upon it would not die from snakebites in the desert. Your friend is made in the image and like ness of God. Does that mean that your friend is evil?

Ignorance of scripture? It is precisely to prevent such an interpretation as the one you gave concerning the cherubs in Exodus 25:18-20 that that we have the verse in Exodus 20:20 “You shall not make [images of what is] with Me; gods of silver and gods of gold shall you not make for yourselves”. There is no need at this point for the Torah to prohibit idols, for that was forbidden in the 10 Commandments. The verse refers to cherubs, the golden statues that would be housed atop the Ark in the Tabernacle. Even though such figures are to be placed in the holiest of all places, the people are not free to make them at will. The cherubs of the Temple must be made only of gold,not silver; golden replicas of them may not be made for use in synagogues, although synagogues are known as “miniature temples” and even in the Tabernacle itself, it is forbidden to add to the two that the Torah prescribes. If such statues are made where God has not commanded them, they are considered to be gods, like idols (Rashi)

 

[Farsight001]

Ignorance of scripture? It is precisely to prevent such an interpretation as the one you gave concerning the cherubs in Exodus 25:18-20 that that we have the verse in Exodus 20:20 “You shall not make [images of what is] with Me; gods of silver and gods of gold shall you not make for yourselves”. There is no need at this point for the Torah to prohibit idols, for that was forbidden in the 10 Commandments. The verse refers to cherubs, the golden statues that would be housed atop the Ark in the Tabernacle. Even though such figures are to be placed in the holiest of all places, the people are not free to make them at will. The cherubs of the Temple must be made only of gold,not silver; golden replicas of them may not be made for use in synagogues, although synagogues are known as “miniature temples” and even in the Tabernacle itself, it is forbidden to add to the two that the Torah prescribes. If such statues are made where God has not commanded them, they are considered to be gods, like idols (Rashi)

Then why were the ancient Jewish temples often filled to the brim with statues?

 

[D_Martin]

The Fundamentalist view, or issue isn’t about statues, pictures or any object for remembrance or memorial. Its about what is done in the presence of a statue that is bothersome. Fundamentalists don’t go on about statues of Lincoln or Jefferson, but no one is bowing down in front of them for all to see are they?

For a Church that’s a stickler for every one should obey the Ten Commandments whether they believe them or not, disregards what is plainly said here:

Lev:26:1: Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Doesn’t say worship or pray to here, does it? It says only, “to bow down unto it”. I was raised a Catholic so I do believe the Fundamentalists have a valid point here.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

The Fundamentalist view, or issue isn’t about statues, pictures or any object for remembrance or memorial. Its about what is done in the presence of a statue that is bothersome. Fundamentalists don’t go on about statues of Lincoln or Jefferson, but no one is bowing down in front of them for all to see are they?

For a Church that’s a stickler for every one should obey the Ten Commandments whether they believe them or not, disregards what is plainly said here:

Lev:26:1: Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Doesn’t say worship or pray to here, does it? It says only, “to bow down unto it”. I was raised a Catholic so I do believe the Fundamentalists have a valid point here.

The cherubim were in the holy of holies, and it is toward the temple and specifically where those statues were that the Jews bowed down.

See psalm 5:7 where this is explicitly said. “I will worship toward the temple.”

Not only that, bowing down in front of real cherubim (not just statues) is going to be mandatory in heaven; for the same reason the golden statues are placed on the ark – because cherubim act as the horses, or steeds, that carry God’s presence.

Cherubim are his throne and chariot; and Seraphim are above them.

The vision in revelation of the elders falling down in adoration before the throne of angels is proof enough; and this is also the same wording found in the old testament. “God rides upon the cherubim.”

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Ignorance of scripture? … Exodus 20:20 “You shall not make [images of what is] with Me; gods of silver and gods of gold shall you not make for yourselves”.

mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm
Exodus 20:20 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

Perhaps you should check your verse number.
Then I can check the Hebrew.

 

[fred_conty]

The Fundamentalist view, or issue isn’t about statues, pictures or any object for remembrance or memorial. Its about what is done in the presence of a statue that is bothersome. Fundamentalists don’t go on about statues of Lincoln or Jefferson, but no one is bowing down in front of them for all to see are they?

For a Church that’s a stickler for every one should obey the Ten Commandments whether they believe them or not, disregards what is plainly said here:

Lev:26:1: Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Doesn’t say worship or pray to here, does it? It says only, “to bow down unto it”. I was raised a Catholic so I do believe the Fundamentalists have a valid point here.

I believe God looks at the heart first and foremost. The rest is just fluff.

When catholics pray, they often automatically kneel, it is reminder to them that they are beggars before God, or “Lord have mercy on me” position, or Jesus’ postion in the Garden. Frequently it is in church which is a holy place. So kneeling in prayer is just the way we do things in church. If there happens to be a statue in front of us, then so what. We don’t even give it a second thought except that it is a reminder of whom we are addressing ourselves to. So if it happens to be a stature of St. Peter, our thoughts are with St. Peter and not with the plaster.

I believe God looks at the heart first and foremost. The rest is just fluff.

Besides you know catholics have devotions in so many ways. If they wanted to worship a statue, there would be a devotion of this sort and the priest would announce that they are having worship services to the plaster statue on tuesday night from 7 to 8 pm.

Just a thought.

 

[chosen_people]

mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm
Exodus 20:20 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.

Perhaps you should check your verse number.
Then I can check the Hebrew.

After rechecking with the Jerusalem Koren Tanach (which is the “gold standard” used for teaching Tanach in our schools in Israel and after checking Targum Onkelos - the verse is indeed Exodus 20:20 as I stated.
For example:
chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9881

In your source it appears as Exodus 20:19 (both in the Hebrew and in the English)

 

[chosen_people]

Then why were the ancient Jewish temples often filled to the brim with statues?

I’m afraid to ask - in the First Temple and in the Second Temple - which statues were there - what did they look like and what was their purpose?

 

[chosen_people]

The cherubim were in the holy of holies, and it is toward the temple and specifically where those statues were that the Jews bowed down.

See psalm 5:7 where this is explicitly said. “I will worship toward the temple.”

Not only that, bowing down in front of real cherubim (not just statues) is going to be mandatory in heaven; for the same reason the golden statues are placed on the ark – because cherubim act as the horses, or steeds, that carry God’s presence.

Cherubim are his throne and chariot; and Seraphim are above them.

The vision in revelation of the elders falling down in adoration before the throne of angels is proof enough; and this is also the same wording found in the old testament. “God rides upon the cherubim.”

so many gods to bow down before

 

[Maria1993]

Having a statue is not worshipping it. It would be worshipping it if you put your faith in the statue itself and not the one it represents. When I see a statue of Jesus I know that is not him, but it reminds me of whom my faith lays in. It is just ridiculous to claim that we worship statues. They are simply reminders. We know the statues have no power, we know it is not them. Goodness.

 

[chosen_people]

Having a statue is not worshipping it. It would be worshipping it if you put your faith in the statue itself and not the one it represents. When I see a statue of Jesus I know that is not him, but it reminds me of whom my faith lays in. It is just ridiculous to claim that we worship statues. They are simply reminders. We know the statues have no power, we know it is not them. Goodness.

aish.com/atr/Angels.html

 

[Maria1993]

I talked about angels?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

After rechecking with the Jerusalem Koren Tanach (which is the “gold standard” used for teaching Tanach in our schools in Israel and after checking Targum Onkelos - the verse is indeed Exodus 20:20 as I stated.
For example:
chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9881

In your source it appears as Exodus 20:19 (both in the Hebrew and in the English)

I figured you’d say that…

The source I quoted makes the same claim about being “the most accurate” version, period. It’s also from Israel as well. Oh well… bragging…

mechon-mamre.org/about.htm

The Aleppo Codex is the most treasured (ancient) one that Israel has; but even that one was made well over 900 years after Christ came; and is far younger than the texts we use as Christians from the Greek side of the translational spectrum; eg: we have many fragments B.C.E., and comparably full copies from the 400’s.

But, that aside (even if you are correct, and that’s fine) – this is a Catholic site; the verse numbering of the scriptures is an artifact of the early middle ages by a Catholic. So that what you have is a scholar who decided to re-number rather than delete numbers – making it harder for us to dialog.

I would cite your numbering – on Jewish sites – as a courtesy.

---

In most bibles based on the original number system (including Catholic) – it’s Exodus 20:23.

usccb.org/bible/exodus/20
bible.cc/exodus/20-23.htm
biblos.com/exodus/20-23.htm
studybible.info/interlinear/Exodus%2020:23
usccb.org/bible/exodus/20