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YahShuaMessiah
Guest
How does the Catholic faith reconcile that logic? Did St. Paul lie to the Romans?
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imroc
Guest
You attempt to sum up a the WHOLE book of Acts of the Apostles in one snippet and fall very short. I don’t want to get into a match of who can spit out the most verses, but for the sake to prove that the context is what matters and not the one single line of scripture that your fundamentalist friends have told you to reference. Since you’re in Acts:
Acts 2:37-38 - A little more than believing here…
Acts 15:11 - Saved by GRACE…
Acts 22:16 - You’ll need a little baptism here…
Who are you going to confess to? See:
John 20:23 - you’ll see the authority given to the apostles (Church)
2 Cor 5:17 and through - Reconcilliation is something you don’t get to see much in your fundamentalist church
James 5:13 - presbyters forgiving sins?
Matthew 18:18 - Wow! Look at what Jesus has done for his Church.
But! St. Paul and St. Luke (Thanks for giving them their honorable titles of St!) didn’t just write one-liners for Romans to go out and evangelize with!
I will for sure. Your “lack of the eucharist” is alot more deadlier than you think, brother. I encourage you to research the word, “Eucharist” and come back and tell me if you consider your lacking a non-issue. It’s a very serious statement you have made.
Like I said, research the word, “Eucharist” than put the whole “Lord’s Supper” together and tell me if I still trust outside of the sacrifice of our Lord. You have much to learn on the Eucharist, I can see that already. I’ll give you a little reference to the Jewish Passover so you’ll better understand the whole event and the sacrifice made. (Hint: it’s all one in the same).
jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm
Now look at your NT scripture and read about the events during the passover and look how Jesus covers each custom/law. You’ll also note that Jews do NOT drink grape juice invented by Mr. Welch. Take deep notice in the Lamb of sacrifice and the Cups of wine. How many? When? How? It’s really quite exhilirating!
Remember, as you quoted earlier, Jesus did not come to change the law. But also remember, in the same statments, He came to fulfill the LAW!
Enjoy and good reading to you!
**
The term Eucharist derives from the Greek word eucharistia meaning thanksgiving or giving thanks
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mastda
Guest
I am noticing a trend here and it is apparent that Malachi is doing alot of cutting and pasting. Just take note of his posts there are many spelling and grammatical errors. However you can see where he is pasting as all of a suddent the spelling and the grammar is perfect.
I am very new to this sort of forum but I am not new to dealing with people. As much as I would like to believe that Malachi is humble and has lovingly come on this forum to engage in a discussion, I am afraid that that is just not true. Almost from the beginning he has attacked, asked questions in a “There answer that” tone, and then refuses to acknowledge the answers provided to him. I am enjoying the verbal exchange but he is being very rude and I notice others are being rude back to him, its just a natural response. He asked if Sarcasm was a fruit of the spirit, the answer is obviously no, but the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Malachi, which of these have you shown throughout your posts?
I am very new to this sort of forum but I am not new to dealing with people. As much as I would like to believe that Malachi is humble and has lovingly come on this forum to engage in a discussion, I am afraid that that is just not true. Almost from the beginning he has attacked, asked questions in a “There answer that” tone, and then refuses to acknowledge the answers provided to him. I am enjoying the verbal exchange but he is being very rude and I notice others are being rude back to him, its just a natural response. He asked if Sarcasm was a fruit of the spirit, the answer is obviously no, but the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Malachi, which of these have you shown throughout your posts?
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NotWorthy
Guest
The Bible refers of the goodness of wine when used correctly: “You may then exchange the money for whatever you desire, oxen or sheep, wine or strong drink, or anything else you would enjoy, and there before the Lord your God, you shall partake of it and make merry with your family” (Deut. 14:26). Other pro-wine-drinking verses are Genesis 14:18; Eccle-siasticus 10:19; Sirach 31:12-31; Psalm 104:15; and 1 Timothy 5:23.
What’s up with that?
Notworthy
What’s up with that?
Notworthy
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imroc
Guest
Like that?
Just kiddin’ Bro
I agree. Scripture wasn’t meant to be cut and pasted in order to build some kinda salvation algorithm. Heck! Can you imagine Martin Luther trying to cut and paste to re-arrange scripture for every debate he came into?
Nah… he just cut the whole books and chapters out to exclude them so he didn’t have to debate them . Hmmm… I guess it’s kinda like some modern high tech lutheran scripture deformation that’s been used since the 1500’sThanks mastda! You gave me a big smile when you wrote that!
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mastda
Guest
You see the problem is at work, my email program (Novell Groupwise) spell checks automatically before I send. I was goint to edit it but it is pretty funny.Like that?
Just kiddin’ Bro
I agree. Scripture wasn’t meant to be cut and pasted in order to build some kinda salvation algorithm. Heck! Can you imagine Martin Luther trying to cut and paste to re-arrange scripture for every debate he came into?
Thanks mastda! You gave me a big smile when you wrote that!
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imroc
Guest
You got me kinda in the detective mode, mastda and guess what?!
Mr. Malachi is kinda guilty of plagerism He probably didn’t want to bother showing the true author’s right to the work or simply forgot. I hope he didn’t try to fool us and want to sound like he’s original and intellectual when it comes to argument. Deception. Who’s the master of deception? How can one be influenced by the devil? What’s the best way for the devil to attack the Church? Attack the Eucharist, the presence of Christ. Attempt to make Jesus look stripped down to grape juice to lead people away from the Bride of Christ…
Here’s the original:
link = gotothebible.com/HTML/didJesusmake.html
Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?
By Bruce Lackey
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REASON SEVEN: CHRIST DID NOT COME TO CAST A STUMBLINGBLOCK BEFORE ANYONE; yet, Rom. 14:21 teaches that a person who gives another alcoholic wine does just that. “It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” Everyone who has studied the problem of alcoholism has learned that some people cannot handle any amount of alcohol, while others may drink one or two “social” drinks and stop. Experts do not know why this is true; various theories have been propounded, but nothing has been proved to be true regarding every person. Some say it is chemical; others insist that it must be psychological. The fact is, we do not know for certain. In any given group of people, there would be several potential alcoholics. What a shame it would be for a person, who is a potential slave to it, to get his first taste at the Lord’s table in church, then proceed down the road of misery to an alcoholic’s grave!
Now here’s Malachi’s:
Mr. Malachi is kinda guilty of plagerism
He probably didn’t want to bother showing the true author’s right to the work or simply forgot. I hope he didn’t try to fool us and want to sound like he’s original and intellectual when it comes to argument. Deception. Who’s the master of deception? How can one be influenced by the devil? What’s the best way for the devil to attack the Church? Attack the Eucharist, the presence of Christ. Attempt to make Jesus look stripped down to grape juice to lead people away from the Bride of Christ…Here’s the original:
link = gotothebible.com/HTML/didJesusmake.html
Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?
By Bruce Lackey
**
**
REASON SEVEN: CHRIST DID NOT COME TO CAST A STUMBLINGBLOCK BEFORE ANYONE; yet, Rom. 14:21 teaches that a person who gives another alcoholic wine does just that. “It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.” Everyone who has studied the problem of alcoholism has learned that some people cannot handle any amount of alcohol, while others may drink one or two “social” drinks and stop. Experts do not know why this is true; various theories have been propounded, but nothing has been proved to be true regarding every person. Some say it is chemical; others insist that it must be psychological. The fact is, we do not know for certain. In any given group of people, there would be several potential alcoholics. What a shame it would be for a person, who is a potential slave to it, to get his first taste at the Lord’s table in church, then proceed down the road of misery to an alcoholic’s grave!
Now here’s Malachi’s:
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rayne89
Guest
I guess honesty shouldn’t be a concern for followers of Jesus as long as they don’t drink wine.
You steal someone’s work and portray it as you own in midst of lecturing us about sin? You have 0 credibility from this point forth.
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imroc
Guest
I just wanted to bring this out because I feel that it is important for Malachi to realize that he lost faith in a Church that he didn’t feel the Holy Spirit in and left for fundamentalism. What he failed to do is give his Church the serious attention it needed and realize the beauty and honor is beholds. He was quick to generalize all catholics based on his own lack of devotion to Jesus and his Bride. Because of this, he moved on to a lower form of worship, a watered down fundamental faith that has blindly put up more boundries on worship and forgot that the early fathers weren’t some simple Christians out thumping bibles. These Christians came from a very liturgical faith that carried much tradition and ritual and was beautifully decorated to honor God according to his commandments. They’ve stripped it all down to a simple piano playing wife and husband who got tired of their stripped down church and found some other scripture to start their own church. While he assumed that catholics don’t know their scripture, he’s found himself in a bit of a debate and has resorted into bogus 19th century and newer writings to back his arguments. He never realized that the Church is the preparer and preserver of the very Bible he now uses to argue against it. He never knew that writings of the early Church fathers existed and have very detailed writings of how the whole faith operates. He doesn’t realize that the term catholic existed in the 1st century. He never realized how close he was by being one in his body through the Eucharist and Church. He had to “feel” it with his own fleshly being. Rather than being fed with the Eucharist, he decided to be fed with half-truths and false-witness. “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will lift him up…My flesh is food indeed, my blood is drink indeed…” It’s all so simple. Christ made these statements repeatedly about his body and blood. Several left him because of this statement! Those who were true stuck it out with him. And nearly 2000 years later, we are still sticking it out with him. Do you want to be of those who left? Do you want to be cut away from the vine as you have no life in you? Vine, Jesus, Wine, etc. You need this to live and have life eternal.
Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. The sacrificial Lamb was to atone for your sins as a Jew. The sacrificial Lamb of God, Jesus is sacrificed for our sins. The Passover Lamb. His sacrifice is continual, and Has commanded us to eat His Body and drink His Blood, for just as the Jews ate the Passover Lamb, we too must eat the Passover Lamb.
Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. The sacrificial Lamb was to atone for your sins as a Jew. The sacrificial Lamb of God, Jesus is sacrificed for our sins. The Passover Lamb. His sacrifice is continual, and Has commanded us to eat His Body and drink His Blood, for just as the Jews ate the Passover Lamb, we too must eat the Passover Lamb.
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YahShuaMessiah
Guest
My post of Mr. Lackey’s work is on the other thread. I posted his whole document. It was edited by an administrator. A link to the work is provided to shorted the post.I guess honesty shouldn’t be a concern for followers of Jesus as long as they don’t drink wine.
I cut and pasted in response to the question why I do not believe Jesus drank wine. I never said they were my words and I posted his name in my original thread. Please look.
I find your attacks encouraging. I am not lecturing anyone on sin. I posed a question that is all…with a position paper to back it up.
I have been quite puzzled at the sarcasm on various posts, the ridicule. I don’t take any of it as a joke. Jesus Christ came and suffered…and died for the remission of my sins. I find nothing humourous about that nor about being an obeidient Christian. When we stand before our Father in his Holyness, Justness, and righteousness, I ponder if their will be humour and sarcasm when we give an account for every idle word.
I left Catholicism because the Holy Spirit moved me not to pray to Mary, not to have any other GODS before him. That is why I left Catholism. I do not expect to convert you. The Holy Spirt will if it is the Lords Will. If the Father leads you to the son.
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malachi_a_serva
Guest
y post of Mr. Lackey’s work is on the other thread. I posted his whole document. It was edited by an administrator. A link to the work is provided to shorted the post.I guess honesty shouldn’t be a concern for followers of Jesus as long as they don’t drink wine.
I cut and pasted in response to the question why I do not believe Jesus drank wine. I never said they were my words and I posted his name in my original thread. Please look.
I find your attacks encouraging. I am not lecturing anyone on sin. I posed a question that is all…with a position paper to back it up.
I have been quite puzzled at the sarcasm on various posts, the ridicule. I don’t take any of it as a joke. Jesus Christ came and suffered…and died for the remission of my sins. I find nothing humourous about that nor about being an obeidient Christian. When we stand before our Father in his Holyness, Justness, and righteousness, I ponder if their will be humour and sarcasm when we give an account for every idle word.
I left Catholicism because the Holy Spirit moved me not to pray to Mary, not to have any other GODS before him. That is why I left Catholism. I do not expect to convert you. The Holy Spirt will if it is the Lords Will. If the Father leads you to the son.
Since I signed on here I wondered,…wouldn’t time be better spent in prayer? Or better spread the Good News?
I think so. Nonetheless, perhaps some don’t.
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imroc
Guest
Well Malachi, I wish you the best. I can’t speak on your behalf about having another god before HIM. I don’t know what your intentions on worship and prayer were. But first I think you should look up the true meaning of “prayer” and look into the comments that have been made. Read up on your early Church fathers and the faith. I implore you to purchase just one single piece of media (book , tape or CD) by Dr. Scott Hahn before you fully decide to leave the Body of Christ. If you don’t like it, consider it money spent to say good bye.
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deb1
Guest
I have sort of lost the train of post here. What does this have to do with wine drinking?
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YahShuaMessiah
Guest
It was brought up in the thread…I started another with that title.
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deb1
Guest
I am copying and pasting but I will include the link that I got this article from.
The first unfermented grape juice known to be processed in the United States was by a Vineland, New Jersey dentist, Dr. Thomas Welch in 1869. Dr. Welch, his wife and 17-year old son, Charles, gathered 40 pounds of Concord grapes from the trellis in front of their house. In their kitchen, they cooked the grapes for a few minutes, squeezed the juice out through cloth bags, and poured the world’s first processed fresh fruit juice into twelve quart bottles on the kitchen table.
To preserve the juice, Dr. Welch stoppered the bottles with cork and wax and boiled them in water hoping to kill any yeast in the juice to prevent fermentation. Dr. Welch’s process was a success, and his application of Louis Pasteur’s theory of pasteurization to preserve fresh grape juice pioneered the industry of canned and bottled fruit juices in America. This first juice was used on the Communion table in the local Methodist church for sacramental purposes, and most of the first orders for grape juice came from churches for Communion.
concordgrape.org/bodyhistory.html
It is from an unbiased, non religious source. Notice that the FIRST wine in the US was not made until 1869.(Welch’s grape juice mentions 1893, so this date might be off) Dr. Welch couldn’t have stopped the fermentation of grapes without Louis Pasteur’s work. Both of these men lived long after Jesus.
Even the early Protestant reformers drank alcohol. Martin Lurther writes about having a beer. (His exact quote is in my second posts) The Puritans drank alcohol, Ministers were sometimes paid in rum. Drinking alcohol wasn’t considered a sin until the 1800’s.
Try to keep grape juice unfermented without modern techniques of storage. You can’t do it. Besides the books of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy go into some deep detail about certain things. If God had wanted the Jewish people to not ever drink alcohol wouldn’t he had given them explicit instructions on how not to let juice ferment?
The first unfermented grape juice known to be processed in the United States was by a Vineland, New Jersey dentist, Dr. Thomas Welch in 1869. Dr. Welch, his wife and 17-year old son, Charles, gathered 40 pounds of Concord grapes from the trellis in front of their house. In their kitchen, they cooked the grapes for a few minutes, squeezed the juice out through cloth bags, and poured the world’s first processed fresh fruit juice into twelve quart bottles on the kitchen table.
To preserve the juice, Dr. Welch stoppered the bottles with cork and wax and boiled them in water hoping to kill any yeast in the juice to prevent fermentation. Dr. Welch’s process was a success, and his application of Louis Pasteur’s theory of pasteurization to preserve fresh grape juice pioneered the industry of canned and bottled fruit juices in America. This first juice was used on the Communion table in the local Methodist church for sacramental purposes, and most of the first orders for grape juice came from churches for Communion.
concordgrape.org/bodyhistory.html
It is from an unbiased, non religious source. Notice that the FIRST wine in the US was not made until 1869.(Welch’s grape juice mentions 1893, so this date might be off) Dr. Welch couldn’t have stopped the fermentation of grapes without Louis Pasteur’s work. Both of these men lived long after Jesus.
Even the early Protestant reformers drank alcohol. Martin Lurther writes about having a beer. (His exact quote is in my second posts) The Puritans drank alcohol, Ministers were sometimes paid in rum. Drinking alcohol wasn’t considered a sin until the 1800’s.
Try to keep grape juice unfermented without modern techniques of storage. You can’t do it. Besides the books of Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy go into some deep detail about certain things. If God had wanted the Jewish people to not ever drink alcohol wouldn’t he had given them explicit instructions on how not to let juice ferment?
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deb1
Guest
Well, let’s supose that we live during nonprohibition days. I would not automatically suppose that the holy man was offering me nonalcoholic cider. I would assume that if someone that I considered holy wanted to have a alcoholic drink with me that we would probably also engage in some very interesting theological discussions to go along with that hard cider, but I wouldn’t neccessarily assume that a holy person doesn’t drink.
Of course the character of a person influences what he/she does but it doesn’t follow that a good person won’t drink a beer now and then.
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stillsmallvoice
Guest
Hi all!
I’ll chime in with my Jewish $0.02 if I may.
I know that some fundamentalist Protestants have a big hang-up about alcohol and that some claim that Jesus never touched a drop of wine. If we allow that Jesus was born a Jew & lived as one (for at least part of his life, I suppose), this is impossible. The consumption of wine was part of Jewish practice then, just like it is now.
I suppose that anyone could make (unfermented) grape juice back then simply by squeezing/stomping grapes. I don’t know about preserving the unfermented) grape juice for any length of time simply because the only ways to preserve foodstuffs way back then was by pickling, salting or drying (which would make the grape juice rather yucky!).
Wine libations were an integral part of the Temple service, in the order of offerings (see Numbers 28 and 29). The Hebrew word for “its drink offering” is nisko & refers to wine, *not *grape juice. The specific reference to wine per se in Numbers 28:14 is held to be illustrative example that holds for all of the various holyday offerings enumerated in Numbers 28-29. Anyone who claims that w-i-n-e was not used in the Temple is saying the scriptural/historical equivalent of 2+2=5.
The blessing “Praised are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, who has created the fruit of the vine” is said before drinking wine and grape juice (but not over grapes or raisins; apples and apple juice/oranges and orange juice, etc. also take different blessings).
On the Nazirite’s having to abstain from wine (see Numbers 6:1-21), several of our Sages comment on the fact that at the conclusion of his vow, he had to bring (inter alia) a sin-offering. I believe that it is our very great medieval Sage, Nahmanides (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/ramban.htm), who says that the Nazirite had to bring a sin-offering because he had taken upon himself a vow (which Judaism frowns upon unless absolutely necessary) that entailed having to deny himself some of the good things which God has permitted us.
I think that my Roman Catholic cyberfriends would agree with us that wine, when properly used, can be a vehicle for holiness. When improperly used, it can be a vehicle for vile unholiness. Wine is, in effect, a kind of tool. It is neither evil nor good; only the use to which it is put and the ends to which it is used can be good or evil. (Even Milton refers to “misused wine.”) The scriptures endorses neither teetotalism nor habitual drunkeness.
I read where the famous Protestant evangelist Billy Sunday, upon hearing that Prohibition had become law, said that, “The rein of tears is over…The slums will soon be only a memory. We will turn our prisons into factories and our jails into storehouses and comcribs” What a fool! The only people happier than him at that moment were all the gangsters & criminals. Organized crime in the USA made it to the big leagues thanks to Prohibition.
Anyone care to join me in a glass of (kosher, of course) egg-nog? (What do you put in egg-nog? Brandy? Rum?)
Be well & a Merry Christmas to all!
ssv
I’ll chime in with my Jewish $0.02 if I may.
I know that some fundamentalist Protestants have a big hang-up about alcohol and that some claim that Jesus never touched a drop of wine. If we allow that Jesus was born a Jew & lived as one (for at least part of his life, I suppose), this is impossible. The consumption of wine was part of Jewish practice then, just like it is now.
I suppose that anyone could make (unfermented) grape juice back then simply by squeezing/stomping grapes. I don’t know about preserving the unfermented) grape juice for any length of time simply because the only ways to preserve foodstuffs way back then was by pickling, salting or drying (which would make the grape juice rather yucky!).
Wine libations were an integral part of the Temple service, in the order of offerings (see Numbers 28 and 29). The Hebrew word for “its drink offering” is nisko & refers to wine, *not *grape juice. The specific reference to wine per se in Numbers 28:14 is held to be illustrative example that holds for all of the various holyday offerings enumerated in Numbers 28-29. Anyone who claims that w-i-n-e was not used in the Temple is saying the scriptural/historical equivalent of 2+2=5.
The blessing “Praised are You, Lord our God, King of the Universe, who has created the fruit of the vine” is said before drinking wine and grape juice (but not over grapes or raisins; apples and apple juice/oranges and orange juice, etc. also take different blessings).
On the Nazirite’s having to abstain from wine (see Numbers 6:1-21), several of our Sages comment on the fact that at the conclusion of his vow, he had to bring (inter alia) a sin-offering. I believe that it is our very great medieval Sage, Nahmanides (ou.org/about/judaism/rabbis/ramban.htm), who says that the Nazirite had to bring a sin-offering because he had taken upon himself a vow (which Judaism frowns upon unless absolutely necessary) that entailed having to deny himself some of the good things which God has permitted us.
I think that my Roman Catholic cyberfriends would agree with us that wine, when properly used, can be a vehicle for holiness. When improperly used, it can be a vehicle for vile unholiness. Wine is, in effect, a kind of tool. It is neither evil nor good; only the use to which it is put and the ends to which it is used can be good or evil. (Even Milton refers to “misused wine.”) The scriptures endorses neither teetotalism nor habitual drunkeness.
I read where the famous Protestant evangelist Billy Sunday, upon hearing that Prohibition had become law, said that, “The rein of tears is over…The slums will soon be only a memory. We will turn our prisons into factories and our jails into storehouses and comcribs” What a fool! The only people happier than him at that moment were all the gangsters & criminals. Organized crime in the USA made it to the big leagues thanks to Prohibition.
Anyone care to join me in a glass of (kosher, of course) egg-nog? (What do you put in egg-nog? Brandy? Rum?)
Be well & a Merry Christmas to all!
ssv
D
deb1
Guest
I will try and find that thread then.
M
Malachi4U
Guest
I can see you don’t know what the Catholic Church states in Dogma. Why should I believe your wine comments when you so clearly missunderstand what Catholics believe and then state these lies/misscinceptions as fact? I just can’t trust what you say as truth when you have proven you don’t know it about Mary in Catholic Dogma. You seem to be easily missled.
I hope someday you understand that Mary is not a God but the mother of God. You are clearly confused and missled. I suggest you try reading the Catechism of The Catholic Church before you write about Catholic Dogma. You may not come off as ignorant or missinformed about Catholicism that way.
JMJ
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deb1
Guest
As far as saying when a person has drunk enough, I am able to say when I have drunk enough. I stop at two drinks, that is my limit.
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