FURIOUS!! Priest wouldn't let me take communion while kneeling

[fix]

JKirkLVNV:

I wondered about that. Fundamentally, how is this different from holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer or the orans position utilized by the laity (I don’t do either, they’re merely examples, and the orans is actually quite an ancient practice).

It seems to me in the kneeling case it has been accepted and approved for centuires within the mass. The other two items mentioned are not in the GRM and the Vatican has not spoken to them that I know of. The Vatican has spoken to kneeling.

 

[Catholic_Heart]

slewi:

Why is everyone so quick to judge Dan’s actions? He had a specific problem, asked for our help in how to deal with it, and then we start lambasting him. Dan had a momentary lapse and felt embarrasment at being singled out for being reverent while receiving our Lord. It turned to anger, a natural response. If someone here is qualified to judge his emotional state and the natural responses that occur then contact him offline, don’t blast him here for everyone to see and comment on. Lay off of him and pray that these abuses don’t start becoming the norm where YOU go to worship. If they do, I pray the folks here are more charitable to you if you momentarily fall.

S

I totally agree with you, Slewi…Most of us cannot help the instant reactions we have when suddenly embarrassed or made an example of…The poster’s reactions were HUMAN, guys…You might have felt and reacted the very same way. i am pertty sure I would have…The priest was dead wrong…Everyone has a RIGHT to kneel for communion, and the priest acted in a very unpastoral way…I would have to think twice before returning…And, if I did, I would certainly take the above quoted letter with me…as well as any other documentation I could find…

It’s a shame that we have to actually “fight” in order to exercise our rights as Catholics…

 

[Brendan]

JKirkLVNV:

I wondered about that. Fundamentally, how is this different from holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer or the orans position utilized by the laity (I don’t do either, they’re merely examples, and the orans is actually quite an ancient practice).

Well on the issue of kneeling for Communion, the Vatican has specifically allowed it, So it cannot be considered an abuse.

At least in the case of the oran’s position, the Vatican specifically rejected it’s use in the US

 

[Ham1]

Click this link and read this article. I think it gives a solid analysis of the situation and how a prudent man should act.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312fea1.asp

 

[CatholicCid]

Br. Rich SFO:

From what I understand the instruction from the CDF says that no one is to be refused Holy Communion because they are kneeling. It also says something about the pastor or priest speaking directly after Mass to the person and explaining why. If they refuse to follow the direction of the Bishop they are now no longer just kneeling to receive Holy Communion. They are intentionally disobeying the instruction of their Bishop regarding liturgical posture which is consistant with the official documents. If a Bishops instruction is clearly opposed to the official instruction then that is a different issue.

I’d think Br. Rich answered this a while ago. If the priest/pastor had informed you to recieve standing in the past, then one should be obdient, just as the Priest must be obdient to applying this to the Bishop’s request.

Though, AltarMan, I hope you didn’t actually slap a lady

 

[JNB]

This article just gives one point of view, and I disagree with it. The CDW stated that those who kneel for communion should not be considered disobident for doing so, nor be refused. As stated in about a dozen other threads, the CDW rules on the GIRM trums a bishops conferences.

Ham1:

Click this link and read this article. I think it gives a solid analysis of the situation and how a prudent man should act.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312fea1.asp

 

[JNB]

Try Our Lady of Peace parish in Santa Clara by Great America, last I went there in 2003, everyone still used the altar rail for communion, also there were no EMHCs or altar girls either.

dan:

Last night, at mass, I went up to take communion, and kneeled before the priest as I usually do. The priest looked down at me, motioned his hand upward, and told me to “stand up.”

Although I was angry (and not to mention extremely embarassed) I followed the priest’s instruction and stood up to take communion. I have to admit, however, I glared a hole through the priest and I slowly stood up.

I confronted the priest after mass and asked him why he wouldn’t let me kneel for communion. His answer was that, in this diocese (San Jose, CA) “everyone stands.” He then told me that communion is not a “personal act of piety.” The priest also told me that, if I didn’t believe him, that I’m free to contact the diocese and ask them.

I bet the priest would find the following link particularly interesting:
catholic.com/library/liturgy/kneeling_1.asp

By the way, it’s worth noting that, although there are kneelers, parishoners never kneel for the consecration at this church, and this particular mass graced us with three “liturgical dance” sets, and the Creed was omitted.

Obviously, I’m angry, and I’m not what exaclty I should do about this.

Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto.

• Dan

 

[totustuusmaria]

Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University.

There are two question involved. The short answer to the question if the individual may choose to receive kneeling is yes. He may do so and may not be refused Communion for adopting this posture. There might be occasions when charity requires that a Catholic sacrifice his personal devotion for the good of others, and so receive standing, but in general it is no great problem.

The present liturgy sees the faithful as coming to receive Communion in processional form (not quite a queue). And so the proper thing to do would be to await one’s turn if that is the only way foreseen for the distribution of Communion.

However, a pastor may freely offer the faithful the possibility of using the Communion rail once they have arrived at the entrance to the presbytery, if he so desires.

See also EWTN’s comments.

Cardinal Ratzinger also said: “Kneeling does not come from any culture - it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God”

Point of fact: kneeling in relation to the Eucharist has been the universal tradition of the Church for at least 1600 years. Kneeling to receive is neither forbidden in the Diocese of the United States nor is the use of an altar-rail (which involves kneeling by nature). The “Norm” was apparently made to enact a certain form of uniformity. It is unfortunate that this remains the norm even if the Vatican has made it clear that no one can be forced to stand. One does well if, in an effort to obey the “norms” he stands with a slight bow of the head with regard to obedience; but one does well with regard to the demand of adoration of the Divine if he kneels (which is, of course, the more traditionally proper position). Since we have, in a sense, been given an “indult” to kneel in the United States, we ought to understand the purpose for the norm and not utilize our indult to kneel without good reasons. On the other hand, I can think of no better reason than the adoration of the Divine Person in the Eucharist and the humility involved in the lower posture. One ought to descern what posture he should assume to best worship God and grow himself in holiness. One need not ever feel guilty for kneeling as this “practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.” (Cardinal Estavez)

Doesn’t it strike anyone as somewhat insulting to think that anyone would include kneeling in adoration of Jesus Christ as an abuse!!! Cardinal Ratzinger records many’s objections against kneeing: 'It doesn’t suit our culture", they say (which culture?) “It’s not right for a grown man to do this – he should face God on his feet”. Or again: “It’s not appropriate for redeemed man – he has been set free by Christ and doesn’t need to kneel any more”. ’ but he then goes on to completely exhonerate kneeling of any charge of not being appropriate for prayer and the liturgy today.

 

[AltarMan]

malibu364:

Calm yourself down and get over it. Stand up and bow your head like the rest of us poor sheep do.

Likely the finest advice I have seen offered on this thread.

 

[totustuusmaria]

AltarMan:

Likely the finest advice I have seen offered on this thread.

Why is that advice so good? So the USCCB got an indult for the norminative position to be standing. The USCCB also tacitly accepted socialism in the 1980s. The USCCB has a lot of problems. The Vatican allowed it, but the Vatican also allowed the ICEL translation. Things are changing but for a long time after the council it was really the bishops who had the power because of the threat of schism. If someone has the conviction that the proper means of adoring the Lord is to kneel, and if it went against his conscience to stand–he shouldn’t stand. On the other hand, if he just had a preference for kneeling, he may wish to stand in order to be obedient and increase the social order. No body should be forced to disobey his conscience in this matter. By the way, one thing to do is write a letter to the apostolic nuncio and the Congregation for Divine Worship.

 

[AltarMan]

JKirkLVNV:

I wondered about that. Fundamentally, how is this different from holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer or the orans position utilized by the laity (I don’t do either, they’re merely examples, and the orans is actually quite an ancient practice).

It’s not. That’s why those that insist they have a right to kneel while receiving communion need to kept their traps shut when they see other liturgical delicts and abuses. After all their credibility is shot.

This is nothing more than another example of Cafeteria Catholicism except this time it’s done under the guise of “tradtionalism” and “orthodoxy.”

 

[AltarMan]

totustuusmaria:

Why is that advice so good?..

That’s axiomatic.

 

[AltarMan]

totustuusmaria:

Why is that advice so good? So the USCCB got an indult for the norminative position to be standing. The USCCB also tacitly accepted socialism in the 1980s. The USCCB has a lot of problems. The Vatican allowed it, but the Vatican also allowed the ICEL translation. Things are changing but for a long time after the council it was really the bishops who had the power because of the threat of schism. If someone has the conviction that the proper means of adoring the Lord is to kneel, and if it went against his conscience to stand–he shouldn’t stand. On the other hand, if he just had a preference for kneeling, he may wish to stand in order to be obedient and increase the social order. No body should be forced to disobey his conscience in this matter. By the way, one thing to do is write a letter to the apostolic nuncio and the Congregation for Divine Worship.

How dare you denigrate the Church! Maybe you need to look into the SSPX or some other dissident group.

 

[netmilsmom]

Brendan:

At least in the case of the oran’s position, the Vatican specifically rejected it’s use in the US

Brendan, could you give a reference on this?

You know I would LOVE to have it!

 

[totustuusmaria]

AltarMan:

How dare you denigrate the Church! Maybe you need to look into the SSPX or some other dissident group.

Denegrate the Church 0_0, I wouldn’t think of such a thing. And, no, I wouldn’t join the SSPX. If the Church actually told me that I couldn’t kneel to receive communion, I would surely obey (though, perhaps, disagree). The point is that the Church has given the Diocese of the United States (which doesn’t have a very good track record, by the way) permission to have the norminative position as standing with the exception clause that no one can be forced to stand. Tradition supports people kneeling and, what I am saying, is that if ones conscience tells him to kneel he ought not stand–the Church has already made an allowance for him.

My comment about the ICEL translation is simple true. It isn’t denegration of the Church to acknowledge that the ICEL translation currently in use is one of the most wretched translations I have ever seen. It is also not denegrating to Church to point out that, in the confusion after VII, the Bishops conferences seized a lot more authority than they Vatican I says they should have (partially by the threat of schism: consider the Netherlands case and the vast discension, even official in some parts of Canada right after Humanae Vitae).

If I’m denegrating the Church, what about Cardinal Ratzinger who said:

What can the third fall of Jesus under the Cross say to us? We have considered the fall of man in general, and the falling of many Christians away from Christ and into a godless secularism. Should we not also think of how much Christ suffers in his own Church? How often is the holy sacrament of his Presence abused, how often must he enter empty and evil hearts! How often do we celebrate only ourselves, without even realizing that he is there! How often is his Word twisted and misused! What little faith is present behind so many theories, so many empty words! How much filth there is in the Church, and even among those who, in the priesthood, ought to belong entirely to him! How much pride, how much self-complacency! What little respect we pay to the Sacrament of Reconciliation, where he waits for us, ready to raise us up whenever we fall! All this is present in his Passion. His betrayal by his disciples, their unworthy reception of his Body and Blood, is certainly the greatest suffering endured by the Redeemer; it pierces his heart. We can only call to him from the depths of our hearts: Kyrie eleison * Lord, save us (cf. Mt 8: 25).

Lord, your Church often seems like a boat about to sink, a boat taking in water on every side…

He became Pope, you know. He also said (from salt of the Earth): “a community who prohibits suddenly what was the most sacred [the Tridentine Mass] and the higher thing till then, and who considers improper to regret it, puts itself in contradiction. How could it be still believed? Won’t it prohibit tomorrow what it prescribes today?”

it is not denigration to criticize even those things which you embrace out of obedience. We’re not called to be stupid as Catholics. If the Pope tells us tomorrow to bury all our icons and statues under pain of excommunication, we obey–but we don’t keep our mouths shut. Now, the Pope isn’t going to do that, but my point still remains: I pointed out real problems without any intention of denegrating the Church. I’m sorry if it came across that way. I still stand by what I said. The Church hasn’t forbidden kneeling, the USCCB doesn’t have a very good track record, the Bishops conferences have a lot of clout in the Church, and I don’t think someone should disobey their conscience in this matter.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[totustuusmaria]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Brendan, could you give a reference on this?

You know I would LOVE to have it!

I don’t think the Church has officially rejected it (though I’m open to being corrected), but I think it is wildly inappropriate when the priest himself is holding his hands in the orans (or orante) position because the confuses the roles very much. The problem is the traditional association of the orans with the priestly function. I don’t think there’s a problem with the orans position apart from that, and I don’t think there is a problem when there is not the chance of confusion.

 

[totustuusmaria]

AltarMan:

That’s axiomatic.

OK, let me clearify:

it is good advice where there is not an issue of conscience which limits a person. Paul says to be mindful of those with a weak conscience. If someone is convinced that God is God and he is a creature, he might feel that it would be a bold travesty to receive the Lord of Hosts without depracating himself in some tangible way. For such a person, I recommend kneeling. For someone who doesn’t have the same qualms, I could see two courses of action: 1) press for his rights by contacting the Ordinary, the nuncio, and the Congregation for Divine Worship (that’s the one I would take); 2) except it as an exercise of obedience.

I think that both are fine approaches.

I for one do not always kneel to recieve. I always, however, genuflect. The major reason why I don’t always kneel is that my Father gets angry when people kneel, and so, out of consideration for him I stand when I assist at Mass with him. I prefer to kneel out of love and adoration for the Lord, but I realize that the Church has allowed standing and that it is the norm for the diocese of the United States, so I do not have qualms of conscience about standing.

 

[netmilsmom]

AltarMan:

How dare you denigrate the Church! Maybe you need to look into the SSPX or some other dissident group.

From Raymand Arroyo’s “Mother Angelica”
pg 242

“You know, as Catholics we’ve been quiet all these years. After Vatican II–those beautiful documents insired by the Holy Spirit, they were misrepresented and misportrayed and misinterperted and every excuse, like this mime (at World Youth Day) has been blamed on Vatican documents…I’m tired. I’m tired of being pushed in corners. I’m tired of you inclusive language that refuses to admit that the Son of God is a man! I’m tired of you making a crack and the first thing you know there’s a hole and all of us fall in. /snip/ I’m so tired of you liberal church in America./snip/
You don’t have vocations and you don’t even care–your whole purpose is to destroy.You can’t stand Catholicity at it’s height so you spoil it as you’ve spoiled so many things./snip/ My agenda is not hidden. I have yet to hear anyone contradict you or cross you or say anything to distress you. Well I’m saying it…”

Mother spoke for the disinfranchised among us. She took on Bishops and many in the left wing of the church. In the end her obedience was to the Vatican and her Spouse.
We are standing up. In the end, all of us are obedient to our Bishops and if you are taking words of discent on a website as a slam to our church, reread Mother’s words.

We are speaking out for what is right.

 

[AltarMan]

totustuusmaria:

OK, let me clearify:

it is good advice where there is not an issue of conscience which limits a person. Paul says to be mindful of those with a weak conscience. If someone is convinced that God is God and he is a creature, he might feel that it would be a bold travesty to receive the Lord of Hosts without depracating himself in some tangible way. For such a person, I recommend kneeling. For someone who doesn’t have the same qualms, I could see two courses of action: 1) press for his rights by contacting the Ordinary, the nuncio, and the Congregation for Divine Worship (that’s the one I would take); 2) except it as an exercise of obedience.

I think that both are fine approaches.

I for one do not always kneel to recieve. I always, however, genuflect. The major reason why I don’t always kneel is that my Father gets angry when people kneel, and so, out of consideration for him I stand when I assist at Mass with him. I prefer to kneel out of love and adoration for the Lord, but I realize that the Church has allowed standing and that it is the norm for the diocese of the United States, so I do not have qualms of conscience about standing.

Pride is getting in the way of you following what the Church instructs. No difference between what you are trying to sell versus those that push the orans-for-all or holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer. None.

Your “conscience” argument is the same one used by those very same people who drive to inject delicts and abuses into the Mass.

For the conscience argument to be valid, one must have a well formed and well-tested conscience.

 

[totustuusmaria]

Pride is getting in the way of you following what the Church instructs. No difference between what you are trying to sell versus those that push the orans-for-all or holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer. None.

Your “conscience” argument is the same one used by those very same people who drive to inject delicts and abuses into the Mass.

For the conscience argument to be valid, one must have a well formed and well-tested conscience. Based on your comments, you aren’t there yet.

No difference??? No difference between a time-tested tradition-approved practice allowed by the Congregation for Divine Worship and recommended by Joseph Ratzinger and a new practice which is completely outside the rubrics? Please, you must be joking me. Please tell me you’re joking me! Our Pope has spoken about the goodness of kneeling to receive communion, and it’s exactly the same??? I don’t understand where you’re comming from. If it was an innovation or something absolutely prohibited, I wouldn’t have brought up the conscience arguement. It isn’t prohibited, and there is good reason why someone (especially someone elderly) would have tinges of conscience if he did stood. Plese, please, please tell me you’re joking!