Future of The Church - Next Pope

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Well I just hope that the next pope follows the Holy Spirit. It doesn’t really matter what anyone on this Earth wants (traditional or liberal), it matters what the Lord wants.

I’ve always made the argument that the ultimate in tradition is to follow the teachings of the pontiff whether those teaching are viewed as conservative or liberal by the laity.
 
God is still in charge of His Church. The next Pope will be exactly who God wants–not us.
 
Well, if we believe that God is omnipotent then there is no way that the Cardinals could ever elect a pope contrary to what the Holy Spirit wants.
I don’t understand what you are saying. Cardinals have free will, don’t they? They have the choice of listening to what the Spirit wants or not. I don’t think some Popes would have been wanted by the Spirit, for example Pope Alexander VI, but I could be wrong.
 
I think that Pope Benedict XVI is an awesome Pope, and a defender of Catholic tradition. I don’t think that he has done anything to make true traditionalists mad (when I say that I speak of Catholics who accept Vatican II and everything that the Church teaches and not the SSPX, sedevacantists, or other extreme traditionalists). I think that by allowing any priest to say the Latin Mass he has made many trads very happy. I hope the next Pope is like Benedict and that the Lord grants Pope Benedict a long life and many years in the Papacy. I just hope the next Pope isn’t a liberal.
Not the SSPX? There is nothing wrong with the SSPX…they are fully Catholic and in communion with Rome. You are talking about being a mindless follower and not a person who questions to see why it is you are following. VII is not accepted by many because of the abuse it allows. Even BXVI stated that errors have been made under VII.
 
Not the SSPX? There is nothing wrong with the SSPX…they are fully Catholic and in communion with Rome. You are talking about being a mindless follower and not a person who questions to see why it is you are following. VII is not accepted by many because of the abuse it allows. Even BXVI stated that errors have been made under VII.
Errors in its implementation, not Vatican II itself.
 
Not the SSPX? There is nothing wrong with the SSPX…they are fully Catholic and in communion with Rome. You are talking about being a mindless follower and not a person who questions to see why it is you are following. VII is not accepted by many because of the abuse it allows. Even BXVI stated that errors have been made under VII.
I looked like this guy when you said in communion with Rome :rotfl: . Ok where to begin…well I’m not gonna get on this too much because the SSPX has been touched on so much here that the moderator would probably shut us down, but let’s just say, if they are in communion with Rome why do they need to sign a doctrinal preamble in order to become canonically regular? Vatican II was NOT bad, what was bad were the things that modernist Catholics did to the Novus Ordo Mass that the Counsel never even intended to happen. I’m sorry but to be Catholic means to follow the example of obedience set forth by Jesus, who was obedient to death on a cross. You can’t just jump ship because you don’t like what’s going on, I agree with a lot of what the SSPX says, I disagree with a lot of what they say too, but how are we supposed to change the modernists if we leave the Church and go worship in our own Church and never set an example for the people that don’t know any better?
 
As I read this thread a few thoughts crossed my mind. Some are actually questions.

Don’t you folks think that maybe such terms as “liberal” and “conservative” or even “traditional” smack of politics? I’m always afraid that we may be carrying language into the Church that comes from the political sphere. I realize that there is a Christian Tradition. However, different popes are going to focus on different aspects of that tradition.

This leads me to my second thought. It was something that the Holy Father said in Light of the World. He was asked about following in the footsteps of Bl. John Paul. He said that those were very big shoes to fill and he was not even going to attempt to do so. Here is the catch, which makes perfect sense. He said that every pope comes to the table with his gifts and his own agenda. He sort of joked and said that those who did not like his agenda should not blame him, but the cardinals who elected him. He went on to explain how the Holy Spirit does not micromanage the pope. The pope loves Jesus and knows Jesus. Therefore, he cannot teach anything contrary to Jesus. However, this does not mean that the popes have a single agenda that is transmitted from one generation to another. Each pope sees something that he feels needs to be addressed.

Pope Paul VI said something similar about his own papacy when asked about following the footsteps of Bl. John XXIII. He said it a little differently, but it came down to the same thing. He spoke about the life experiences and education of the pope. His own background was that of a diplomat and a lawyer. He was not a theologian and he was not about to write theology. He had tons of experts to do that. He wrote and then gave his writings to his theologians for review, to make sure that they were correct. His strength was in dealing with the legal dimension of Catholic life. Therefore, he set upon the task of rewriting Canon Law. He died before he completed it. Five years after his death, Bl. John Paul promulgated the new code. The hard work had been done by Pope Paul. Bl. John Paul’s team came in and tied the loose ends.

John Paul was a pastoral pope and a spiritual theologian. He had spent his life working with the spiritual life of men and focusing on such things as belief systems, the anatomy of the soul and the anatomy of the Christian life. His papacy was all about bringing men in touch with the interior life, thus his writing show how profoundly he goes into such topics.

He was also a youth minister and very much a priest to the younger generations. From his seminary days, he worked very closely with university students and he would later work closely with youth groups in his homeland. He too has a great deal of diplomatic experience. He decided to set out on a mission to the young. He certainly influenced them. We have a whole generation of men and women religious who are very much the John Paul II brothers, sisters and nuns. We were inspired by the presence of this man. There was something about him that moved us to want to be like him. Then we have a whole generation of John Paul II priests. You find them mostly in the developing nations of the world. Bl. John Paul inspired them with his opposition to Communism and Liberation Theology. He showed these young men that the Church could stand up for justice without losing sight of Christ. In fact, Christ demands justice. As we can see right here on CA, on EWTN and other mediums, there is an entire generation of younger lay Catholic leaders, scholars, apologists and theologians whom Bl. John Paul inspired by his presence.

As we look at popes, we notice how each brings to the table his gifts and applies them to an area of the spiritual life that needs to be addressed. There is no way that any pope is going to address every area of the Church’s life. Therefore, I don’t really hope for a conservative, liberal, progressive, or traditional pope. I pray for a pope that will use his gifts wisely. At the end of the day, every human being, even the pope, can be tempted to waste grace.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Don’t you folks think that maybe such terms as “liberal” and “conservative” or even “traditional” smack of politics? I’m always afraid that we may be carrying language into the Church that comes from the political sphere. I realize that there is a Christian Tradition. However, different popes are going to focus on different aspects of that tradition.
I don’t agree that terms such as “traditional” smacks of politics, except that we need to stand by the teachings of the Church, which may include the political sphere such as not supporting pro-abort politicians, and writing to legislators when bad laws are about to be enacted. The Church does not turn a blind eye to politics.

The term “traditional,” and “traditionalist” is irksome to some folks here, but it’s a legitimate term. CAF has this subforum called traditional Catholicism. It isn’t a bad or wrong term.
 
I don’t agree that terms such as “traditional” smacks of politics, except that we need to stand by the teachings of the Church, which may include the political sphere such as not supporting pro-abort politicians, and writing to legislators when bad laws are about to be enacted. The Church does not turn a blind eye to politics.

The term “traditional,” and “traditionalist” is irksome to some folks here, but it’s a legitimate term. CAF has this subforum called traditional Catholicism. It isn’t a bad or wrong term.
I agree with you that it’s not a bad term. I can also see how it’s being polarized. When it was first used, it referred to fidelity to Christian Tradition. That’s a good thing.

When people start using it to means “us” vs “them”, it’s an incorrect use of the term and it becomes political.

I’m not talking about the Church speaking to the secular world, including, but not limited to, civil authorities and politicians. That’s one of her roles and rights.

When I say political, I’m thinking of using words in a manner that creates factions. That’s why I was thinking that to wish for a pope that is this or that may not be very realistic. It is much better to pray for a pope who uses his gifts wisely, whatever they may be.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I agree with you that it’s not a bad term. I can also see how it’s being polarized. When it was first used, it referred to fidelity to Christian Tradition. That’s a good thing.

When people start using it to means “us” vs “them”, it’s an incorrect use of the term and it becomes political.

I’m not talking about the Church speaking to the secular world, including, but not limited to, civil authorities and politicians. That’s one of her roles and rights.

When I say political, I’m thinking of using words in a manner that creates factions. That’s why I was thinking that to wish for a pope that is this or that may not be very realistic. It is much better to pray for a pope who uses his gifts wisely, whatever they may be.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Okay, I have a better understanding of what you mean by political in reference to “traditional.” I agree that it’s not realistic to wish for a pope that is this way or that way.
I don’t think that “faction” is a good term to use, in that it means a group of persons who stand up for their side or act together for some commmon purpose against the rest of a larger group. Certainly there are those traditionalists, in a minority, who do take this view. But traditionalists in general, IMO, shouldn’t all be perceived as being part of a faction, if that’s what you meant.

And those who stand up for tradition, such as preferring and wanting to attend the EF, shouldn’t be considered a faction, but you probably didn’t mean it that way.

Yes, we do need to pray for the pope, every day if we can. He has a difficult job.
 
Another Pope Pius XII would be nice… But I think the current Holy Father is a blessing to us all
 
Another Pope Gregory XVI would be nice 😃 But our current Holy Father has been a blessing to us all
 
When I say political, I’m thinking of using words in a manner that creates factions. That’s why I was thinking that to wish for a pope that is this or that may not be very realistic. It is much better to pray for a pope who uses his gifts wisely, whatever they may be.
That those factions in reality exist, cannot be denied. I see a fractured church in many ways, even in our own parish. As to the future pope, I’m going to pray that he be orthodox and that the continuity over the last 2,000 years not be further broken.
 
As I read this thread a few thoughts crossed my mind. Some are actually questions.

Don’t you folks think that maybe such terms as “liberal” and “conservative” or even “traditional” smack of politics? I’m always afraid that we may be carrying language into the Church that comes from the political sphere. I realize that there is a Christian Tradition. However, different popes are going to focus on different aspects of that tradition.

This leads me to my second thought. It was something that the Holy Father said in Light of the World. He was asked about following in the footsteps of Bl. John Paul. He said that those were very big shoes to fill and he was not even going to attempt to do so. Here is the catch, which makes perfect sense. He said that every pope comes to the table with his gifts and his own agenda. He sort of joked and said that those who did not like his agenda should not blame him, but the cardinals who elected him. He went on to explain how the Holy Spirit does not micromanage the pope. The pope loves Jesus and knows Jesus. Therefore, he cannot teach anything contrary to Jesus. However, this does not mean that the popes have a single agenda that is transmitted from one generation to another. Each pope sees something that he feels needs to be addressed.

Pope Paul VI said something similar about his own papacy when asked about following the footsteps of Bl. John XXIII. He said it a little differently, but it came down to the same thing. He spoke about the life experiences and education of the pope. His own background was that of a diplomat and a lawyer. He was not a theologian and he was not about to write theology. He had tons of experts to do that. He wrote and then gave his writings to his theologians for review, to make sure that they were correct. His strength was in dealing with the legal dimension of Catholic life. Therefore, he set upon the task of rewriting Canon Law. He died before he completed it. Five years after his death, Bl. John Paul promulgated the new code. The hard work had been done by Pope Paul. Bl. John Paul’s team came in and tied the loose ends.

John Paul was a pastoral pope and a spiritual theologian. He had spent his life working with the spiritual life of men and focusing on such things as belief systems, the anatomy of the soul and the anatomy of the Christian life. His papacy was all about bringing men in touch with the interior life, thus his writing show how profoundly he goes into such topics.

He was also a youth minister and very much a priest to the younger generations. From his seminary days, he worked very closely with university students and he would later work closely with youth groups in his homeland. He too has a great deal of diplomatic experience. He decided to set out on a mission to the young. He certainly influenced them. We have a whole generation of men and women religious who are very much the John Paul II brothers, sisters and nuns. We were inspired by the presence of this man. There was something about him that moved us to want to be like him. Then we have a whole generation of John Paul II priests. You find them mostly in the developing nations of the world. Bl. John Paul inspired them with his opposition to Communism and Liberation Theology. He showed these young men that the Church could stand up for justice without losing sight of Christ. In fact, Christ demands justice. As we can see right here on CA, on EWTN and other mediums, there is an entire generation of younger lay Catholic leaders, scholars, apologists and theologians whom Bl. John Paul inspired by his presence.

As we look at popes, we notice how each brings to the table his gifts and applies them to an area of the spiritual life that needs to be addressed. There is no way that any pope is going to address every area of the Church’s life. Therefore, I don’t really hope for a conservative, liberal, progressive, or traditional pope. I pray for a pope that will use his gifts wisely. At the end of the day, every human being, even the pope, can be tempted to waste grace.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thanks Bro. JR.

I appreciate the perspective and reality check. It’s been very helpful and insightful.

The more and more I learn, the more I realize I dont think like the Church thinks.
I think like an American, influence by American culture and its own political structure. I tend to bring my western prism of how I view things to the table.
That often causes me to misunderstand how the Church operates and how she thinks and deals with her children
 
LOL, you folks even have his name picked out. Good gravy! I’m partial to Francis and Dominic. We have never had either.

We’ve had Franciscan and Dominican popes. We don’t want a Franciscan pope. Franciscans make horrible popes, because we’re not administrators. That’s not our thing. Every Franciscan pope has been a horrible administrator, even though they have been very holy men. All of the popes from Pope Leo XIII to John XXIII were Secular Franciscans and they were not great administrators either, but all very holy men. I guess administration and Franciscanism don’t go together.

Maybe a pope who is either a secular priest or from one of the congregations would be a better administrator. Pope Francis I or Pope Dominic I sound good to me. 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thanks Bro. JR.

I appreciate the perspective and reality check. It’s been very helpful and insightful.

The more and more I learn, the more I realize I dont think like the Church thinks.
I think like an American, influence by American culture and its own political structure. I tend to bring my western prism of how I view things to the table.
That often causes me to misunderstand how the Church operates and how she thinks and deals with her children
The Church is so old and so huge that it’s going to be impossible for her to lean toward any particular culture.

I’ve always tried to be careful with the use of the term “Traditionalist”. When it first emerged, it was used as an adjective for those Catholics who identified with the Tridentine Form. It did not mean that this group was more faithful to Catholic Tradition than any other Catholic.

Today, there is a SMALL but vocal group that uses the term interchangeably with faithful or orthodox. That’s not fair. There are many people who prefer the Ordinary Form or one of the forms of the religious orders instead of the Tridentine Form, but they are very faithful to Catholic Tradition.

When you use the term to imply “faithful” or “orthodox”, but you limit it to those who attend the EF, then what would be the appropriate term to the faithful and orthodox Catholic who does not attend the EF, but prefers either the OF or one of the forms of the religious orders? You can’t call them non-traditional, because they are being faithful to what the Church teaches and to what the Church allows.

We really have to be very careful how we use language. If by Traditionalist, we mean a person who prefers the EF, then it would not be proper to wish for a Traditionalist pope, because the pope has the duty to support and value the whole Church, East and West and to all forms of liturgy celebrated according to her mind and according to her rules. That would make him a faithful pope.

As to everything else, what he does and how he doese it, that will depend on his gifts. We’re not clones. Popes are individuals with individual gifts, individual priorities, individual points of view and individual agendas. They are not the pupppets of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit protects them from teaching error, but leaves them free to use their talents.

I pray that the next pope will be faithful to the talents that God has given him and will have the wisdom necessary to use them well. If he can’t fix everything, another pope will follow who will pick up another piece and another and another.

The pope’s job is like that of a mother. When she finishes the laundry it’s time for the dishes. When she finishes those, it’s time for supper. Then it’s time for homework and by the time the kids are in bed, there are more dishes and so forth. Think of the Church like a home and the pope as a homemaker. Now with that image in mind, find me a home where everything is done or a mother who can do it all.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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