Future of Traditinoal Latin Mass (EF) poll

[Domer1997]

Although it seems highly unlikely at present, I think ultimately the OF - in any form substantially different from the EF - will eventually fade into history. The whole experiment is premised upon the idea that a church can repudiate its history and sever its ties with its tradition to create a new, better faith and worship. I find that idea simply unbelievable. One poster mentioned that on college campuses students overwhelmingly favor the 10pm dorm Masses that are, shall we say, less than reverent (based on personal experience of schedule and liturgy, I’m pegging that poster for Notre Dame ). That kind of liturgy cannot sustain a church in any kind of long term (witness the Protestant Mainline), and the OF is, IMHO, deficient in similar ways in precisely the areas where it differs from the OF. It will likely get reformed along the lines of the TLM so that we will see a *tertium quid *that is far more TLM than NO, perhaps actually winding up with the Mass of Sacrosanctum Concilium.

I loved our 10pm Notre Dame Dorm Mass. I haven’t found anything post-college nearly as genuinely Christian as those Masses. We were a true community of brothers worshiping together as one…I believe Jesus was definitely smiling down on us I wouldn’t have traded them for the world. …certainly did not think they were irreverant in the least. …wouldn’t want to change anything about them (except the women’s dorms…some thought it would be retro to bake their own bread. I don’t think they still do this…but Lyons Hall women should have read the rules a bit…I almost choked on a nut…I don’t think they are allowed to do this on campus anymore because it is a highly illicit practice). Other than that experience in a women’s dorm, my male dorm had amazing Masses that need to stay AS IS. Oh yeah…and I understood the language…unlike all five inaudible Tridentine Mass I have been too. …beautifully reverent I will give you that…but not practical for most Catholics.

 

[excelsus]

Oh yeah…and I understood the language…unlike all five inaudible Tridentine Mass I have been too.

Five? If you go more often you will eventually get to the point where the words in Latin convey the same idea as fast as the words in English. Sometimes I think of a part of the Mass in Latin and have to think for a bit about what it would be in English.

 

[MarkThompson]

Five? If you go more often you will eventually get to the point where the words in Latin convey the same idea as fast as the words in English. Sometimes I think of a part of the Mass in Latin and have to think for a bit about what it would be in English.

He said they were inaudible, not unintelligible.

 

[plefe]

At the risk of making others mad, I say look at the numbers…
Your Joe Schmo Novus Ordo Catholic has a contraceptive culture. Even if they have fertility problems or overuse NFP, the contraceptive mentality is present. I know several individuals who are practicing NO Catholics who do not follow the Church’s teaching and use artificial methods of contraception.
TLM attending Catholics tend to follow the Church’s teaching on contraception. (I’m sure there are exceptions.)
So, your average NO family has two kids, and maybe your average TLM family has 8. (I made up those numbers, btw/)

Have you been to a FSSP Mass and a NO Mass? Who has more kids?

Isn’t it just a matter of time before the NO’s extinct themselves?

That is why I voted that the NO will be extraordinary in 50 years.

Praise God. I have 7 kids.

 

[PioKolby]

The Latin Mass will be the only Latin rite Mass in 50 years maybe sooner the Bugnini Mass is of human origins.Which as I discern it is why vocation numbers and Mass attendance numbers are in the basement. I attend the Bugnini Mass daily and I am one of two people under 40. It was suicidal to alter the Mass in the first place. I really see our Holy Fathers wisdom in not quickly ending the Bugnini Mass that would cause a schism. Let’s be clear the Bugnini creation is an unmitigated disaster even when the Priests follow the books.
Pio

 

[pnewton]

The Latin Mass will be the only Latin rite Mass in 50 years maybe sooner the Bugnini Mass is of human origins.

How sad. Are you aware that there is not Mass know as the “Bugnini Mass” or do you think so little of this Holy Sacrifice that you have no compunction about calling it names?

 

[otjm]

The Latin Mass will be the only Latin rite Mass in 50 years maybe sooner the Bugnini Mass is of human origins.Which as I discern it is why vocation numbers and Mass attendance numbers are in the basement. I attend the Bugnini Mass daily and I am one of two people under 40. It was suicidal to alter the Mass in the first place. I really see our Holy Fathers wisdom in not quickly ending the Bugnini Mass that would cause a schism. Let’s be clear the Bugnini creation is an unmitigated disaster even when the Priests follow the books.

                                                               Pio

Your lack of ability to discern anything over the last 40 years is truly astounding. But then, I suspect you were not around for much of them.

And your cavalier dismissal of the Mass carte blanche, with so little experience of it in so many places says much about your concept of spirituality. I suggest as a starting place that you read what the Holy Father wrote in his letter accompanying SP.

 

[Kardinal]

(In the interests of full disclosure, I am not a “traditional Catholic”, in the sense of preferring the TLM. But I bear the TLM no ill will and am very glad it is being celebrated more widely. I have attended one pontifical high mass in the extraordinary form and was very impressed, but personally prefer the ordinary form, as it is celebrated in a fully orthodox way where I live.)

My opinion is that our Holy Father is moving toward a single liturgy which is in some sense a hybrid or a synthesis of both what we call the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Latin Mass. What elements of each will become part of the new Roman Rite I don’t know enough to say. I certainly believe it will have more Latin than the Novus Ordo does, almost certainly in the ordinaries, and I both think that’s an excellent move and personally I would prefer it. I think it unlikely that we will return to reading from Scripture in Latin, but all of the propers could go either way.

It’s just my opinion. What the next pope’s vision will be is obviously impossible to tell.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Any Mass that produces vocations has a future. It will take a few generations to see if the Novus Ordo is something that young men will give up their lives for. I somehow don’t think they will. But time will tell. We already can see that the Traditional Mass tends to produce more vocations. That is precisely what made the French bishops jealous of Abp. Lefebvre in the first place nearly thirty years ago. Their seminaries were empty. His was full. And there are more Traditional seminaries now, and they are cramped for space from what I am hearing. The Novus Ordo has to show that it has the ability to motivate young men to want to become priests too. If it doesn’t, it will go away. Either way, the Old Mass is never going away.

 

[otjm]

Any Mass that produces vocations has a future. It will take a few generations to see if the Novus Ordo is something that young men will give up their lives for. I somehow don’t think they will. But time will tell. We already can see that the Traditional Mass tends to produce more vocations. That is precisely what made the French bishops jealous of Abp. Lefebvre in the first place nearly thirty years ago. Their seminaries were empty. His was full. And there are more Traditional seminaries now, and they are cramped for space from what I am hearing. The Novus Ordo has to show that it has the ability to motivate young men to want to become priests too. If it doesn’t, it will go away. Either way, the Old Mass is never going away.

Rory, me lad! If one were to pay a wee bit of attention to the news, one would know that numerous priests have been killed for their faith in foreign lands (Africa and Asia but to name two continents) since the OF was promulgated, and the vast majority of them were saying the OF, not the EF. So, yes, the OF has been something that young men, and not so young men, are and have been willing to give up their lives for.

Given that we do not have a working definition of what the term “Traditional seminaries” means, it is hard to intelligently discuss the statistics as to how many, for example, of the 459 priests ordained in 2010 were from such seminaries. It would make for some interesting information if that could be sorted out.

There are, per the statistics, 3483 graduate level seminarians in the US as of 2010 (presumably the 2009 - 2010 school year). Again, no definitions as to what type of seminaries they are in.

It has been noted elsewhere that the younger priests (and seminarians following them) have a much different agenda that the priests 20+ years older than them - they are often referred to as the John Paul 2 priests; young men who focused on a vocation in response to the leadership of the last pope. They may not be Traditionalists, but neither are they the liberals of the decades before them.

 

[PioKolby]

Thank you for your thoughts "pnewton " understand that I call it the Bugnini Mass because in reality that is who created it Cardinal Bugnini. Pope Benedict then Cardinal Ratzinger called the Bugnini Mass a “spontaneously manufactured product” That takes nothing away from Our Lord’s presence in the Eucharist. I worship him at the Bugnini Mass. The Mass is valid but defective in many respects. Thank God! for the wisdom of holy Mother Church in how she is dealing the liturgical changes this time around. Slowly and prudently I would say. And to “otjm” if you don’t think the changes to the liturgy have played a role a main role in the train wreck the Church has become I am speechless. I guess we see this differently. Here is a great show on the topic of the Bugnini Mass this will cover all the facts. Every Catholic needs to see this.

realcatholictv.com/free/index.php?vidID=ciax-2010-08-01-a&ssnID=89

realcatholictv.com/free/index.php?vidID=ciax-2010-08-01-b&ssnID=89

 

[otjm]

Thank you for your thoughts "pnewton " understand that I call it the Bugnini Mass because in reality that is who created it Cardinal Bugnini. Pope Benedict then Cardinal Ratzinger called the Bugnini Mass a “spontaneously manufactured product” That takes nothing away from Our Lord’s presence in the Eucharist. I worship him at the Bugnini Mass. The Mass is valid but defective in many respects. Thank God! for the wisdom of holy Mother Church in how she is dealing the liturgical changes this time around. Slowly and prudently I would say. And to “otjm” if you don’t think the changes to the liturgy have played a role a main role in the train wreck the Church has become I am speechless. I guess we see this differently. Here is a great show on the topic of the Bugnini Mass this will cover all the facts. Every Catholic needs to see this.

realcatholictv.com/free/index.php?vidID=ciax-2010-08-01-a&ssnID=89

realcatholictv.com/free/index.php?vidID=ciax-2010-08-01-b&ssnID=89

If anything, I am not ignorant of the problems the Church has had and continues to have. You and I source it very differently.

I am old enough to have been taught by the Baltimore Catechism and was in Catholic high school before the train wreck that occurred after Vatican 2 (in catechesis) occurred. I have also had the privilege of attending literally more than a thousand OF Masses that have been said in a reverent, holy and worshipful manner, and had the experience of serving, as a young altar boy, Masses pre-Vatican 2 that were hurried, and sloppy as said by a drunk priest.

I also am privileged to be part of a parish that has the OF (said reverently), the great majority of attendees who receive CITH, and has had Eucharistic Adoration 24/7/363 for well over 15 years now.

None of that denies the fact that we have had, and still have priests who say the Mass in a way Rome never anticipated nor wants. As much as I detest the term “Modernism”, there is no question that many of these same priests have been infected with an attitude and thought process that has wandered far, far from the Gospels, let alone the last 2000 years of teaching of the Church.

But the vitriol that is spewed forth about the OF continues to appall me. I don’t question that much was taken out of the liturgy when the OF was written; but I am also cognizant of the facts that a) our Holy Father has said that some of what we have in the OF could be applied to the EF; b) there never has been a Council of the Church that has not created problems after it, which all took a long time to resolve; c) there is a slow movement to amend the OF; and d) a significant and major portion of the bishops of the Church wanted changes made to the Liturgy and that work is not yet completed - as in, the EF (and Benedict 16 has made mention of some changes to it).

If you are speechless, then perhaps you might choose to stop calling the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass the Bugnini Mass; Bugnini was only one part of the writing of the Mass and he did not promulgate it; Paul 6th did. If you want to blame Paul 6th, fine, but you might recall that the OF is the Mass the Pope says (as well as the two before him and after Paul 6th.). Your disrespect shows. If it is good enough for Benedict 16 to call it the OF, you might follow suit.

 

[malphono]

understand that I call it the Bugnini Mass because in reality that is who created it Cardinal Bugnini.

No, he was never made a Cardinal. It was Archbishop Bugnini.

 

[pnewton]

I worship him at the Bugnini Mass. The Mass is valid but defective in many respects. Thank God! for the wisdom of holy Mother Church in how she is dealing the liturgical changes this time around. Slowly and prudently I would say. And to “otjm” if you don’t think the changes to the liturgy have played a role a main role in the train wreck the Church has become I am speechless.

Why are you speechless? The majority of the Catholics in the world do not consider the Church a “train wreck” nor do they have a preference for the TLM. Perhaps if you had a broader perspective within the Catholic Church you would not be so surprised. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion of the state of affairs in the Catholic Church, but your perspective does seem skewed. You called Bugnini a Cardinal and you gave a dubious reference to the Holy Father. This is what is found for “spontaneously manufactured product” on a search, BTW.

google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=+%22spontaneously+manufactured+product%22+&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=+%22spontaneously+manufactured+product%22+&gs_rfai=CJwKU8LNxTL-VOozmNPOmheYPAAAAqgQFT9DVt7Y&fp=ad526d12389e3c08

What is found is links to blogs and forums. What is not found is anything substantiating that claim. What I can substantiate the Holy Father said, in a much more substantial way that a passing remark in some intro to someone else’s book.

“We might say that … the liturgy was rather like a fresco [in the early 20th century]. It had been preserved from damage, but it had been almost completely overlaid with whitewash by later generations. In the Missal from which the priest celebrated, the form of the liturgy that had grown from its earliest beginnings was still present, but, as far as the faithful were concerned, it was largely concealed beneath instructions for and forms of private prayer. The fresco was laid bare by the Liturgical Movement and, in a definitive way, by the Second Vatican Council. For a moment its colors and figures fascinated us. But since then the fresco has been endangered by climatic conditions as well as by various restorations and reconstructions. In fact, it is threatened with destruction, if the necessary steps are not taken to stop these damaging influences. Of course, there must be no question of its being covered with whitewash again, but what is imperative is a new reverence in the way we treat it, a new understanding of its message and its reality, so that rediscovery does not become the first stage of irreparable loss.”

adoremus.org/0906BenedictXVI.html

This link will give a much better understanding of what the Holy Father really thinks than listening to snipets which skew what was said. A good rule of thumb is never trust any quote that is less than a sentence and always seek out the context of anything that sounds odd.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Almost all of the talk about how many youth are drawn to the EF is anecdotal and not in any perspective. If 12 parishes in the whole diocese of Chicago have the EF, it is hard to believe that more than 5% of the youth of Chicago who go to Mass regularly are going to the EF. I seriously doubt that it is 10% just because of the way numbers flow and the likelihood that the 12 parishes which have it do not constitute the 12 largest parishes of the diocese. They may be the majority of people attending in those parishes, compared to, sy, the 35 to 55 crowd, or the 56 - 80+ crowd. But they are a miniscual percentage of youth attending Mass weekly.

In short, there is enthusiasm within the group that wants the EF, and a myopia to what is occuring beyond their own front door to an extent that one wonders where critical thinking has gotten itself off to.

The statistical reality of the present is precisely why I prefaced my own prediction with the observation that, while I believe the long haul will see the disappearance of the OF in anything but a reformed version that is a slightly revised EF, this is incredibly hard to believe at present. Nonetheless, I simply think that, when you remove yourself from the numbers and look at the theoretical abilities of the two liturgies to sustain a revealed religion, there is no conclusion but that traditional worship will beat out manufactured worship any day of the week. We are constituted as a Church by our tradition. As the memoirs and histories of the creation of the NO continue to emerge the picture becomes ever more clear. The liturgists that created the new liturgy were trying to be novel, trying to create rupture, and, as Abp. Marini put it, trying to introduce a new theology. That boat just won’t hold water over the historical long haul.

 

[PioKolby]

Well otjm you said "I detest the term “Modernism” well you shouldn’t it is a heresy defined by a Pope!
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/modernism/catmodernism.pdf

I am speechless because if any Catholic looks at the Homosexual priest abuse scandal,vocations numbers,Mass attendance numbers and the problems in the Liturgy but sees nothing wrong you have to wonder do they think this is normal. Wake up! try to save souls not Vatican II. Sorry two generations stopped going to Mass because the Church is not the same PERIOD!!! The mass is different. The language is different. The doctrine is different by omission. Tradition brings out the youth and so does the Latin Mass. The facts are the facts. I have been to hundreds of New Masses and one thing I will say is I never- NEVER have seen it celebrated the same way in two place ever.

youtube.com/watch?v=yWnL_n4Ti5c

youtube.com/watch?v=D0SxB70vLZA

 

[crazzeto]

Well otjm you said "I detest the term “Modernism” well you shouldn’t it is a heresy defined by a Pope!
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/modernism/catmodernism.pdf

I am speechless because if any Catholic looks at the Homosexual priest abuse scandal,vocations numbers,Mass attendance numbers and the problems in the Liturgy but sees nothing wrong you have to wonder do they think this is normal. Wake up! try to save souls not Vatican II. Sorry two generations stopped going to Mass because the Church is not the same PERIOD!!! The mass is different. The language is different. The doctrine is different by omission. Tradition brings out the youth and so does the Latin Mass. The facts are the facts. I have been to hundreds of New Masses and one thing I will say is I never- NEVER have seen it celebrated the same way in two place ever.

youtube.com/watch?v=yWnL_n4Ti5c

youtube.com/watch?v=D0SxB70vLZA

Trying to place the blame for the problems of church squarely on the shoulders of Vatican II is an aboslute fallocy. There were many reports of hypersexuality in the semenaries stemming from certainly the 50’s if not also the 40’s. Vatican II exposed the problems, it didn’t create them. There’s an important distinction there.

Yes heretics took Vatican II and ran with it’s supposed spirit, but do you seriously put forth that Vatican II created the heretics? That they seriously didn’t have these idea’s before the council, and that before that point everyone was a happy, completely faithful Catholic who would never have dared dream such errors?

I’m sorry, but the evidence doesn’t support this opinion commonly held by ultra-traditionalists.

 

[malphono]

I am speechless because if any Catholic looks at the Homosexual priest abuse scandal

The scandal has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation. It has, rather, everything to do with pedophilia and the abuse of minors, both male and female.

vocations numbers,Mass attendance numbers and the problems in the Liturgy but sees nothing wrong you have to wonder do they think this is normal. Wake up! try to save souls not Vatican II. Sorry two generations stopped going to Mass because the Church is not the same PERIOD!!!

While I am not in any way, shape, or form, a devote of the OF, I have to ask: explain, then, how it is that the bulk of people “of a certain age” are the most adamantly opposed to the EF? They were brought up with it, yet they were the first to jump on the Novus Ordo bandwagon. Well, third: the bulk of the clergy of that period were first, and the religious sisters were second.

I’ve been around the block enough times to know the usual answer to that: the “real faithful” left with the introduction of the Novus Ordo. OK, fine, let’s assume that. But what about now, in the wake of Summorum Pontificum, which clarified and freed the EF from its bondage? What I don’t see are throngs of people “of a certain age” banging on the doors. What I do see, though, are mixed groups, often heavy on the younger end of the age spectrum assisting at Mass. Which leads to the question: where are all those people who left ostensibly because of the Novus Ordo? Could it be that they may not have been so devoted or well catechized in the first place?

The mass is different. The language is different. The doctrine is different by omission. Tradition brings out the youth and so does the Latin Mass.

This is true.

The facts are the facts. I have been to hundreds of New Masses and one thing I will say is I never- NEVER have seen it celebrated the same way in two place ever.

Never mind the frequent “improvisations” and such, but with so many built-in options in the OF, that is, unfortunately, more or less expected.

 

[VetA]

The Latin Mass will be the only Latin rite Mass in 50 years maybe sooner the Bugnini Mass is of human origins.Which as I discern it is why vocation numbers and Mass attendance numbers are in the basement. I attend the Bugnini Mass daily and I am one of two people under 40. It was suicidal to alter the Mass in the first place. I really see our Holy Fathers wisdom in not quickly ending the Bugnini Mass that would cause a schism. Let’s be clear the Bugnini creation is an unmitigated disaster even when the Priests follow the books.

                                                               Pio

i know what you mean but maybe you could word it a little better?

 

[VetA]

How sad. Are you aware that there is not Mass know as the “Bugnini Mass” or do you think so little of this Holy Sacrifice that you have no compunction about calling it names?

he is referring to the primary author of the Novus Ordo.