Gabriel, Mary, and Zechariah

[Catholic4Christ]

Luke 1:18-22…

18 Then Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.”
19 And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news.
20 But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time.”

Luke 1:34-37…

34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”
35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
36 And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
37 for nothing will be impossible for God.”

It seems to me that the author of Luke intended some level of parallelism between these passages (he does a lot of that between John the Baptist and Jesus). What I don’t understand is: why is it that when Zechariah asks his “How”, he is struck mute for disbelief, but when Mary asks nearly the same “How”, Gabriel gives her a concise explanation and goes on his way after her acceptance?

 

[Evan]

I would posit two possible explanations

1. The angle could see into the heart of the one asking the question and saw a great disparity in the internal attitude.

2a) Zachariah knew it was possible since God had done similar things for Abraham and Sarah, but doubted that He could still do it in these later days.

2b) But for Mary, vowed to never have relations with a man, it would be impossible therefore the question is more “Can I maintain my vows or is God asking me to set them aside?”

 

[Catholic4Christ]

1. The angle could see into the heart of the one asking the question and saw a great disparity in the internal attitude.

This is kind of what I figured. I guess I should have addressed this more clearly in my first post, though: I’m sure God had his reasons for treating the two people separately, but it just seemed odd to me that the author of Luke didn’t address this on-the-surface discrepancy at all.

 

[jbarbaretta]

This is kind of what I figured. I guess I should have addressed this more clearly in my first post, though: I’m sure God had his reasons for treating the two people separately, but it just seemed odd to me that the author of Luke didn’t address this on-the-surface discrepancy at all.

I think Evan’s other explanation is worth considering. It is more in line with what I’ve heard elsewhere.

2a) Zachariah knew it was possible since God had done similar things for Abraham and Sarah, but doubted that He could still do it in these later days.

2b) But for Mary, vowed to never have relations with a man, it would be impossible therefore the question is more “Can I maintain my vows or is God asking me to set them aside?”

Zachariah doubted God, (and being a priest, talking to an angel none the less…) should have known better.

Mary is not doubting God at all. She is asking about the mechanism that would cause this to come about.

Two hugely different questions, that talk to the heart and faith of the individuals. Zachariah had evidence that God could do exactly what he promised (Abraham) but doubted. Mary had no evidence and no understanding of how it could happen, but rather than doubt God, asked for clarification on how it would occur. Now all generations call her blessed.

 

[CaptFun]

Luke 1:18-22…

18 Then Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.” < Even though an Angel has appeared to him, Zechariah looks to be argumentative .
19 And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news.
20 But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time.”

Luke 1:34-37…

34 But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”
(Mary, apparently, is asking for clarification, direction, or instruction here - given what the Holy Spirit-inspired Elizabeth says later in the Chapter)

35 And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
36 And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
37 for nothing will be impossible for God.” <Gabriel GIVES clarification (which Mary assents to - rather than doubts).

It seems to me that the author of Luke intended some level of parallelism between these passages (he does a lot of that between John the Baptist and Jesus). What I don’t understand is: why is it that when Zechariah asks his “How”, he is struck mute for disbelief, but when Mary asks nearly the same “How”, Gabriel gives her a concise explanation and goes on his way after her acceptance?

The answer comes later in the passage for Mary (via Holy Spirit inspired Elizabeth) … and earlier for Zechariah (via the words of Gabriel). She “believed” the word of the Angel, He “did not.”

I bolded or colored the critical words for better distinction, and gave a bit of insight above **(not my insight - but I forget who to attribute it to).
**
Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, 42 cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 **Blessed are you who believed **15 that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”

I had this same query and this was how it was (QUITE satisfactorily explained to me). Yes, there does seem to be quite a lot of parallelism in Luke 1 between Zechariah and Mary.

HE is the ranking person in all Israel at the moment of the appearance - the only one allowed to offer incense in the holy of holies. Even after an Angel appears to him that seems to know of his prayers and gives him good news - he is at least too skeptical and gets punished for he " … did not believe."

SHE is by comparison (man’s way of looking at it) is “just” a handmaiden without rank. Yet the Angel salutes her as a superior in his greeting (and that disturbs her). Gabriel does not bring his own message but God’s. As his master is “With” Mary, he answers her questions respectfully.

This picking of the unlikely candidate (in the manner of human beings) is something God does throughout the Bible (e.g. David, the youngest of 7 brothers and a shepherd is picked to be the anointed King - and defeat Goliath). Mary’s Magnificat and Zechariah’s prayer at the end of Luke 1 wrap up the parallelism that you noticed nicely too.

 

[po18guy]

Using a translation that is closer to the Latin Vulgate shows it a little clearer:

Luke 1:34
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

Versus

Luke 1:18
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
18 And Zachary said to the angel: Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.

It is the difference between “How are you going to do this?” and “How do I know you are going to do this?”

Mary, who believed that it would be done, asked in faith how it would be done. Zechariah expressed doubt, or incredulity. Gabriel’s words to him clearly reflect Zechariah’s lack of belief.

 

[patrick457]

Using a translation that is closer to the Latin Vulgate shows it a little clearer:

Luke 1:34
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

Versus

Luke 1:18
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
18 And Zachary said to the angel: Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.

It is the difference between “How are you going to do this?” and “How do I know you are going to do this?”

Mary, who believed that it would be done, asked in faith how it would be done. Zechariah expressed doubt, or incredulity. Gabriel’s words to him clearly reflect Zechariah’s lack of belief.

Zechariah phrases it as kata ti gnōsomai touto, literally “according to what will I know this;” Mary says pōs estai touto, “how/in what way will this be.”

Curiously, Zechariah’s answer parallels that of Abram (Genesis 15:8 LXX, kata ti gnōsomai oti klēronomēsō autēn): the difference between Zechariah and Abram is that while Zechariah had been praying for a son all along, he now doubts God’s ability to make it happen - in front of the messenger. Zechariah is seeking for a sign (“How will I know that this is so”), something which Luke consistently interprets negatively (11:16, 29-30; 23:8).
The irony here is, Zechariah quote Abram - who unlike Zechariah was responding to an unprecedented event - but does not share his faith; Mary does not use them, but her faith is apparently similar to that of Abram.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Cornelius a Lapide makes a good point, that Mary was axious about her virginity and the vow she made concerning it, not that she doubt God’s ability. And as we know, Mary kept her virginity while becoming Mother of God. This also fits the context of the passage on how the angel explains how she will become pregnant without losing her virginity.

 

[CaptFun]

Using a translation that is closer to the Latin Vulgate shows it a little clearer:

Luke 1:34
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

Versus

Luke 1:18
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
18 And Zachary said to the angel: Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.

It is the difference between “How are you going to do this?” and “How do I know you are going to do this?”

Mary, who believed that it would be done, asked in faith how it would be done. Zechariah expressed doubt, or incredulity. Gabriel’s words to him clearly reflect Zechariah’s lack of belief.

Thanks for that “closer to the Latin Vulgate” interp po18guy. It does make the distinctions clearer.

Another scripture like this that used to have me stumped was why God favored Abel’s sacrifice to Cain’s. Little words can be revealing. I understood THAT one better when someone pointed out that Cain made “an offering” and Abel an offering of his best.

Genesis 4:3 In the course of time Cain brought** an offering to the LORD from the fruit of the soil, 4 while Abel, for his part, brought one of the best firstlings** of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not. Cain greatly resented this and was crestfallen.

6 So the LORD said to Cain: “Why are you so resentful and crestfallen? 7 If you do well, you can hold up your head; but if not, sin is a demon lurking at the door: his urge is toward you, yet you can be his master.”

Little things can mean a lot. This wondering we have to do about scripture sometimes may be part of the “Seek and you shall find …” principle or keeping such things in our heart (like Mary) until God reveals wisdom to us.

Thanks too to Catholic4Christ for posting this thread. Luke Chapter 1 is awesome.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

…

Little things can mean a lot. This wondering we have to do about scripture sometimes may be part of the “Seek and you shall find …” principle or keeping such things in our heart (like Mary) until God reveals wisdom to us. …

Years back, in another thread a Jewish poster told me that every word of Scripture is there for a purpose. He offered “all the days of your life” as an example. He explained that “the days of your life” is your lifetime. “All the days of your life” means that it extends into the Messianic era.

Occasionally, I encounter rabbinical teachings on another site. I greatly enjoy learning how much they can extract from an apparently simple phrase.

 

[TimothyH]

Zechariah phrases it as kata ti gnōsomai touto, literally “according to what will I know this;” Mary says pōs estai touto, “how/in what way will this be.”

Curiously, Zechariah’s answer parallels that of Abram (Genesis 15:8 LXX, kata ti gnōsomai oti klēronomēsō autēn): the difference between Zechariah and Abram is that while Zechariah had been praying for a son all along, he now doubts God’s ability to make it happen - in front of the messenger. Zechariah is seeking for a sign (“How will I know that this is so”), something which Luke consistently interprets negatively (11:16, 29-30; 23:8).
The irony here is, Zechariah quote Abram - who unlike Zechariah was responding to an unprecedented event - but does not share his faith; Mary does not use them, but her faith is apparently similar to that of Abram.

This.

-Tim-

 

[TS_Aquinas]

Using a translation that is closer to the Latin Vulgate shows it a little clearer:

Luke 1:34
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
34 And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?

Versus

Luke 1:18
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
18 And Zachary said to the angel: Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.

It is the difference between “How are you going to do this?” and “How do I know you are going to do this?”

Mary, who believed that it would be done, asked in faith how it would be done. Zechariah expressed doubt, or incredulity. Gabriel’s words to him clearly reflect Zechariah’s lack of belief.

Ready for a blood boiler my friend?

NAB

Luke 1:18-20

Then Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.” And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, 8 who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news. But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time.”

Luke 1:34

But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”

Footnotes on verse 20: You will be speechless and unable to talk: Zechariah’s becoming mute is the sign given in response to his question in v 18. When Mary asks a similar question in ⇒ Luke 1:34, unlike Zechariah who was punished for his doubt, she, in spite of her doubt, is praised and reassured(⇒ Luke 1:35-37).

Calling our Blessed Mother a doubter is stating she was not full of grace… I wonder what the penalty is for that.

 

[CaptFun]

Years back, in another thread a Jewish poster told me that every word of Scripture is there for a purpose. He offered “all the days of your life” as an example. He explained that “the days of your life” is your lifetime. “All the days of your life” means that it extends into the Messianic era.

Occasionally, I encounter rabbinical teachings on another site. I greatly enjoy learning how much they can extract from an apparently simple phrase.

Thanks Joe Kelley. I like your signature scripture too - I’ll have to look it up in a concordance … but seek and ye shall find.

Once, while discussing St. Paul’s famous (I paraphrase) " … now we see darkly, as through a glass, then we shall see (Him) face to face … " I opined that God will “still be blowing our minds a million years from now.”

I don’t remember what my friend said - but when the phrase “blowing our minds” is used, the polite American response is “Whoa, man!” < or a shorter version with either one of those two words. Lol.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Thanks Joe Kelley. I like your signature scripture too - I’ll have to look it up in a concordance … but seek and ye shall find.
…

It is part of Moses’ final charge to the Israelites.

15 “See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God* which I command you this day, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you this day, that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land which you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live, 20 loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice, and cleaving to him; for that means life to you and length of days, that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

Deuteronomy 30:15-20
I think we have been offered the same choice today.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Zechariah tells Gabriel

8* And Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.”

Luke 1:8

Mother Angelica was in good form one night as she commented on Zechariah’s attempt to teach Gabriel about the birds and the bees.

 

[po18guy]

Ready for a blood boiler my friend?

NAB

Luke 1:18-20

Then Zechariah said to the angel, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.” And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, 8 who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news. But now you will be speechless and unable to talk until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled at their proper time.”

Luke 1:34

But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”

Footnotes on verse 20: You will be speechless and unable to talk: Zechariah’s becoming mute is the sign given in response to his question in v 18. When Mary asks a similar question in ⇒ Luke 1:34, unlike Zechariah who was punished for his doubt, she, in spite of her doubt, is praised and reassured(⇒ Luke 1:35-37).

Calling our Blessed Mother a doubter is stating she was not full of grace… I wonder what the penalty is for that.

It might be better in the NABRE, but the footnotes in the NAB can be toxic. One can only pray that the USCCB will publicize that other, earlier translations of scripture are equally valid (I believe even more valid) than the mushy, neutered, “genetically modified scripture” than makes up the NAB/RE.

Oh, as to translations making a difference? Let’s look at how John 2:4 has been corrupted since various egos have begun to dissent:

John 2:4
Douay 1582, (based on Jerome’s Latin Vulgate of 382-405) From the 1899 American Edition (DRA)
And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.

Wycliff 1382-1395 (pre-reformation dissenters)
“And Jesus saith to her, What to me and to thee, woman? mine hour came not yet.”

Luther Bibel 1545
Jesus spricht zu ihr: Weib, was habe ich mit dir zu schaffen? Meine Stunde ist noch nicht gekommen. “What have I to create / do with you”

KJV 1611
“Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.”

American Standard Version 1902
“And Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.”

New American Standard Bible 1971
"And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does that have to do with us? My hour has not yet come.”

New International Version 1973
“Woman, why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

Good News Translation 1966
“You must not tell me what to do, Jesus replied. My time has not yet come.”

You cannot have correct theology if your scriptures are corrupted with the taint of agenda.