Gabriel, the Annunciation, and Islam

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Remember what Jesus (pbuh) said about divine laws during his first stay in the world some 2000 years ago:

Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

A king needs laws in order to effectively rule his kingdom.

I’m curious to know what laws do Christians think that Jesus (pbuh) will use to rule the world when he comes back to it from the heavens?

The reason I ask is because I believe that it is only the Sharia which is both universal and comprehensive enough to rule over the entire planet.

Is Jesus (pbuh) going to apply the Sharia or is he coming back with a different set of divine laws in order for him to effectively rule over all of humanity?

Do not forget that we are talking about divine laws to rule over humanity while still in this world and not the Hereafter.
 
Yes, the sublime words of our Savior, the incarnate Son of God, are yet another standard by which we must convict Muhammad of being the false teacher and false prophet that he truly is. “Not one jot shall change” means just that. Muhammad followed his own hubris and ruinous passions straight to hell, and is determined to drag as much of humanity down with him as possible.

What makes you think that Jesus Christ (PEACE BE HIM) has any need for the laws of the Qur’an? You are foolish. Jesus told the Jews, His people, the true spirit of their law (which in some cases had been neglected, but NOT forged as Muslims allege), and with His incarnation we, as gentiles, have all the guidance that we need, straight from the Son of God into our souls. Next to that, the Qur’an is only so many dead trees or pieces of hide. We don’t need it. It will rot along with everything else. Only the teachings of the Savior and the work of the Father will endure, and only by following Christ can we have life in the hereafter. Forget about ruling the temporal. God has that all figured out, even as Muslims couldn’t decide amongst themselves what to do with the land they brutally usurped after Muhammad died.

Islam is so worldly, I’m surprised it even qualifies as a religion at all.
 
Very good! I also believe that Jesus’ rule will be over the universe that becomes heaven when He returns in glory. I believe that Catholic and Orthodox Christianity is not hung up on the idea of earthly rule by the Christ.

So much can be said. Mohammad said to rule the world by the sword and if need be to convert all through force. Christianity does not sentence to death those who leave the faith. They can leave of their own free will. Islam says to kill those who leave the false religion Islam. Communists have tried to keep people from leaving the communist society. It didn’t work. Christianity and only Christianity has blossomed again in the former USSR.

Jesus said to convert the world through His word. Our belief in His word is to be shown in how we love our neighbors. Treat them with charity. Help the poor. Live a life as close to Christ himself. We do fail miserably…but we have the forgiveness of Christ. He stopped the idea of murdering people who leave his faith.

Jesus is Love and Peace. It flows through his Grace. He doesn’t need PBUH!
 
spn82756 said:
Christianity and only Christianity has blossomed again in the former USSR.
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Sorry, friend, while I agree with the spirit of your post, this part is just not true. I have friends who live in the majority-Muslim republics of Central Asia that were once part of the USSR like Uzbekistan and they tell me that Islam is making a resurgence in these places, after many years of careful reintroduction into society. It is not a uniform process (Kazakhstan, for instance, can hardly be said to be “Muslim”, either in mores or numbers), but it is still going on. We shall see where it goes, especially as the communist-era holdovers begin to die and leadership passes over to their ideological progeny (in many cases, to the detriment of the whole society) or others.
 
dzheremi said:
Sorry, friend, while I agree with the spirit of your post, this part is just not true. I have friends who live in the majority-Muslim republics of Central Asia that were once part of the USSR like Uzbekistan and they tell me that Islam is making a resurgence in these places, after many years of careful reintroduction into society. It is not a uniform process (Kazakhstan, for instance, can hardly be said to be “Muslim”, either in mores or numbers), but it is still going on. We shall see where it goes, especially as the communist-era holdovers begin to die and leadership passes over to their ideological progeny (in many cases, to the detriment of the whole society) or others.
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If it’s not true…then it saddens me. I do know that Islam is growing in the southern republics of the old USSR…but even ex-communists have embraced the faith of Christianity. Islam is growing through the idea of jihad against the west. I’m interested in your response.

Peace
Steve
 
The story of the donkey…didn’t Jesus tell the pharisees regarding the issue of divorce, that it was allowed in past times because of their stubbornness…The image of the donkey is used as well to reflect the attitude of the Jewish people…their balking and stubbornness and quarrelling.

People in ancient times, including the Jews, were crude, barely uncivilized people. God chose them called them His own, but they were spiritual children. He inspired laws, cultural mores, liturgy and the priesthood and sacrifice, family life, property, animal husbandry, etc. Their culture was diretly inspired by God and it was their obedience to all these laws and regulations that were to develop and strengthen their moral fiber as well as protect the progeny of their Jewish race…so that they could bring forth the Messiah…and after that still retain themselves as chosen…even in the rejection of Jesus. That was so the gospel could spread into the world and that we would have a Catholic, universal church…rather than a Hebrew culture church.

When I referred to past posts, the image of brutality, violence, willful sense of superiority coupled with uncouth behaviors…I can see why people of the Middle East were so brutal to one another then…and in some parts still.

I see this same sentiment continuing within Islam and the Koran…but the rest of the Christian world advanced…for awhile it rejected philosophy and reason because it that was considered materialist…there was a precursor to St. Thomas who then changed Aristotle’s primary mover to God also referred to as the Unmoved Mover…the one Who doesn’t change…

I think the behavior of the Old Testament reflects the closed attitude of the Jewish people and the hardness God had to use to reach them and teach them…but they evolved as a people, they grew.

The 10 commandments are the best laws for the world. Jesus came to fulfill them when He said to love God with your whole heart and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself…What that means is,

If you truly love God totally, you won’t hate Him or deny Him, you won’t blaspheme His name…you will keep His day holy…and if you love your neighbor, you will honor and obey your parents and care for them, you will not hate, you will guard your purity, you will not lie or steal, you will not bear false oaths about yourself or others, you will not covet a neighbor’s goods…or his wife…because you live in God’s kingdom which is within…the terrain of the human heart where brutality or love reign…the 10 commandments living them are fulfilled…because Jesus revealed He is at the door of every heart. So to take it further, what we do to our neighbor, we do to Jesus.

The problem with a number of Muslims is that they are blind to the fact that in making Muhammed a new prophet with a new Jesus and new form of Allah, they are taking another’s faith and culture and altering them for their own…a form of stealing so to speak not by Muhammed but by the spirit that came to him…

And Muslims are blind to the evil they commit to their neighbor. The Quran says it is OK, but Jesus said what you to do the least you do to Him…that means, unconditional, all people, be they communist, Muslim, Christian, atheist…you are to recognize and love the common humanity in all people.

You will find brutality in the beginning of the Scriptures simply because it reflects that beginnings of civilization starting in ancient times. People were very crude and it took a hard hand to discipline them and make them open their minds.

Just today, there have been so many inroads into human psychology over the coarse of 40 years that are finally truly helping people heal of mental illness. Psychology has also helped us to recognize the commonality of all human beings…there are no superiors or inferiors among us…before God we are all equal and He loves all of us equally no matter what our belief system.

I believe Judeo Christianity is the true religion, but I do not consider myself superior to any Muslim. As I have shared here, you can see I have some powerful images that put me on guard…

So you can’t objectively call Muhammed a true prophet and his visit of his Gabriel as verifiable descendents of the prophets and angels of the Judeo Christian heritage…there are two separate heritages and different and even contrary messages…Reason would say that which originates out of its own culture is communicating the real message.

but there is definitely a blood connection through Hagar and Ishmael and Abraham and those of our faith…I believe some day this fracture between Muslims and the Jews and the Christians will be healed, but it will also be in God’s time, just as the fulfillment of the Jews when they finally recognize Christ as their Beloved will come about when God wills it…it is His work, not ours.

I do know as well that Egypt is the actual source of radical and violent Muslim associations and that Pakistan perhaps has the greatest violence, let alone the history of Islam coming into India…very sad.

Hamba, you share other posts, but this is all I can address today. God bless you.
 
I just read on Drudge Report that 31,000 scientists’ petition opposing global warming was brushed off by present administration
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I would normally be quick to argue 31,000 would be a small percentage of scientists in the world, but given i did not even know there was an administration for scientists i will assume you know much.
Nope! None! Nada! Global warming is a hoax. My degree is in atmospheric physics. I’ve been a professional meteorologist for 30 years.
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Well i cant argue with that as i said in earlier post is said i am not scientist, but to believe that there is no climate change i need to go with the conspiracy theory. It means the rain fall and temp data have been doctored where i live.

I guess except for my duty of care to others it does not matter. Even if it is a big conspiracy to get taxes its only money.

A bit sad for Catholics here as they are going to look silly.
A big bummer for our kids in Catholic schools when they grow up and find the the church has mislead them as to what G-ds will is.
 
MrZetterlund said:
Yes, but Zachariah was gripped with fear by seeing him, not speaking with him. You read the same thing when God appears to people.
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Hello Mr Zetterlund, Absolutely true, but the discussion is on what the Angel said to Zachariah, to Mother Mary, and what the Islam says regarding how the angel treated mohammed. And not what the reaction of the people was ie Zachariah, Mother Mary or Mohammed.🙂
 
The virtues of implementing Sharia law as an alternative to the existing system we have now is just too many to list on this thread,

However, in light of the economic collapse that the world is now witnessing and which I suspect a few of the forum participants here are now, either directly or indirectly, feeling the dire effects of, I do wish to point out that an economic system which is based on Sharia principles will most certainly prevent and solve most of the economic problems that the world is now experiencing.

Islam prohibits usury which is undoubtedly the underlying factor for much of the mess that can be seen in today’s financial markets and Sharia prohibits all forms of selling debts, like discounting promissory notes and checks with postponed payments.

Also forbidden under the Sharia is the scheduling of debts at a higher interest rate. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade the sale of debts.

Many economists contend that selling debts has exacerbated the financial crisis.

There are of course many other great benefits to be derived from adopting Sharia-based economics which I could point out that would make it a most viable alternative to the present economic system we have today but suffice for me to say that implementing a Sharia-based economic system would completely wipe out any ideas the elite bankers may have of establishing a global government under their control.
 
Hamba,

The Catholic Church has been against usury before Sharia.

The Catholic Church condemns usury.

A Catholic Italian developed the accounting method in the 1400’s that is still used today. So the Catholic church has made some people who have good business sense.

The Catholic Church not only has the greatest library in the world, but is on record of having done most for the poor, sick and suffering of this world in Christ’s name of any institution. The Catholic Church has the greatest teachings of what it means to be human and … humane to others.

My country has been taken over by secular atheists and want big government to control everything…the same issue we have against totalitarian Islam…

John Paul II grew up in a communist country…you know, every time America had a storm or a train wreck, or a plane crash or some crazy going off in California, it was all over daily news every day in communist countries. They didn’t know about the pogroms and gulags and all the atrocities that were happening on their own soil. All people hear for 100 years around the world because of the KGB is that no good comes out of America!!! But everybody wants to come here!

And look, it is the Far Left/ Marxists who have been working underground chipping away at our freedoms and moral sense to make us the mess we are in today. The American Far Left liberal government from the Housing Dept. is the one who forced banks to lower their lending to non-supporting standards as a gimmick to get votes from the poor…give poor people mortgages…and the poor predictably failed in an already changing economic environment…and so now Far Left government is in greater power than ever. There were also big banks that began giving credit cards to teenagers without their parents’ permission, and they got bailed out while we as citizens opposed this and wanted them to take the consequences for their predatory behaviors.

It is strong moral fiber that is the cornerstone of any government, the golden rule, treat others the way you want and stand up on your own two feet, THINK, and follow the commandments, and make good use of one’s time working and again, thinking…Far Left controls our schools, encouraged sex behind parents’ back, and got kids to believe ideology and not think.

Anyhoo…After a few years, John Paul II stated that the best economy and government is the free market and a democracy…and like what was intended in our American constitution – freedom of religious expression – that is, an equally vocal strong moral voice from the private sector. Now, not only cannot we not say ‘Merry Christmas’, they won’t let us know that we are going into global cooling…all for more power and taxes.

Well, I would rather remain free, and stay with Catholic social justice, and be spared wearing --to mem a woman --wearing those black desert robes, seeing people beheaded, and having myself reduced to a piece of property, and men being led to consummate whatever passion passes in their minds any time of the day, not developing self control and monogamy.

The Catholic Church has always opposed usury. It has opposed the mistreatment of women and turning them into chattel.

Sharia did not help the Middle East with their economies for how many hundreds of years.

The discovery of oil ignited the Middle East… as well as the prophecized return of the Jews to their homeland for almost 2000 years…Ka Boom!!!

I would rather stay within the context of anti-usury with the Catholic Church because it promotes economic systems that work irregardless of oil, defends women, and has the most highly educated understanding of what it is to be humane and just, to promote what is true and beautiful.
 
Again Hamba, referring to past post about Jesus coming back to rule the earth…

He is not coming back to rule this earth, He never will. You have to read the true intent of the Gospel and He speaks in sequence.

Jesus is coming back to judge this world that will be burned by fire including the heavens.

Jesus will rule over a new heaven and a new earth with the elect.

The thousand year reign is the draw from Revelations that Hitler used to bone up his Third Reich, as well as modern fundamentalists…who also believe in the Rapture…which we believe will come at the Final Judgment referred to above.
 
(Heavy taxation on homes and industries in America means our loss of home and loss of industry, and enslavement through taxation.

The government is already working to force Catholic hospitals and institutions to betray their constitutional right to freely express our faith and beliefs within our properties. Many of us have signed the Manhattan Declaration.)
 
Is there something in the bible that says G-d commands angels to treat each human being in the same way?

I would consider G-d treats us all with the same love but differently at times because we have different needs.

I would consider that Mary (bbhn) under the covenant of His chosen people does not have to be treated exactly the same as a man under the promise made to Abraham (pbuh) for the descendants of his slave son (pbuh).

I guess Mary (bbhn) would have been a humble woman with some knowledge of G-d as her ancestors preserved and shared their history with G-d.

Arab men would have been proud arrogant and ignorant. These people had less idea of who G-d is / was. Some thought G-d was the leader of some 360 gods and ruled with his daughters.

IMO if i had authority over both and needed to get a job done i would need to treat them differently to get them to do it my way.

To go further than my first question i wonder if this basis of discussion is based on an opportunity to love each other or one to “prove” “i am right and you are wrong”.

But as asked in my first question there may be a scripture i dont know of or understand and only speak from my heart, when it comes to G-d many of you appear very learned and resolute speaking with authority, it is not for me to argue against His authority given you.
 
You do have a point, and I wondered as well about the Koran, the region, the nomadic life, the difficulties of the desert…for me it is a harshness…people have to have very thick skins to survive…

But our guide is Salvation History, and through Abraham, the Muslims also have a place in it.

There is much to be said that all things work for the glory of God and that He will allow grace to pour forth on all when it is in His time…

We have to step back, look at the intent of the author, the message, and all that is in the Bible must be taken in context of all…when the message contradicts, and there is a different story, a different morality, disputes with no central authority, then we fall back on the Church.

The Lord never left us as orphans. It is good Muslims come here to share…but I find it hard to find a common ground where we can actually start helping each other realize what the intent is of the Gospel vs insights and depths of the Koran.
 
KathleenGee said:
It is good Muslims come here to share…but I find it hard to find a common ground where we can actually start helping each other realize what the intent is of the Gospel vs insights and depths of the Koran.
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I reckon common ground is difficult because religious people often start with an attitude you must be where i am rather than accepting G-d does not treat us all the same. That is there are things i need help with that others dont.

For me only G-d can truly bring light from darkness, hard times make people turn to Him.

All claiming to be monotheists may do well to accept we dont all have the relationship with G-d and have trust in Him that He will fix the hard parts, regardless to what we do but we can make it easier on each other sharing love and being patient.

While many from all religions claim G-d wants them to exact justice by war, for me i praise and thank Him it is not my calling.

It would be a big call for me to say at this moment He has not called anyone to war, He did in the past and knows what to do best for His will now.

If some one wants to kill me for my beliefs, i would not be encouraging them but ultimately my life is not about my flesh, its about my being only G-d can provide over the fate of my being.

IMO End time draw nearer, i feel it deep within, it will not be pleasant. Our heart response to aggressors that say they believe in one self existent G-d without beginning or end, all seeing and all knowing is what will count to the glory of G-d.

Our heart response will at times, not always manifest in our actions they are fruit and an offering to this “world, age, aeon, realm” or whatever term you have for it.

Love each other aspiring to love as Our G-d loves us.

By His will may He bless and guide you and yours Sr Kathleen as you pray to Him as Yeshua (pbwh) and all the other messengers (pbut) taught.
 
God bless you, as well!

Yes, I also sense deeply within me there is a consequence coming…

War, pestilence, plagues are punishment for sins of mankind…

I just read this morning an account of the Black Plague that came out of China and went throughout the Eastern Hemisphere into Europe, and how there was so much hate and materialism…there were signs in the sky, images of the moon contorting like a snake, the terrible effects of the plague, its odor in the air causing people to almost immediately fall down dead breathing it…50% dying, friars, monks, nuns also casualties…making me think of Christ’s Words repeated at the end of the liturgical year (November), where there will be two women grinding, one will be taken and one left behind…where are they?..where the vultures lay…

We cannot cling to this world, every day we must renounce ourselves and take on the new life of Jesus.

It is good to debate, but it is not good to use religion to destroy another…this to me is blasphemy. The Lord also warns us to beware of the leaven of phariseeism, the outward show of religion…like Sr Faustina says, ‘Mother Mary, protect me from those who hide their malice with the veil of religion’.

I don’t like people outside my culture taking my religion and our Catholic culture, saying they on the outsuide are our experts, distorting the truth of Jesus and His new life of redemption and salvation – for everyone,-- and making Christianity something it is not.

Of course, there is so much scandal today that contradicts and submerges and marginalizes true Christianity…I believe true Christians exist in all denominations, I experience the presence of God with my Jewish friends, and when Muslims affirm the one true God by seeing us all as one, then that is the presence of true religion…

Thus in Vatican II, all people who are as thus are on the road to salvation, including people of good will, no fault of their own. Catholicism is very complex, and the bible must be understood in its totality with the same Spirit of God then and today. Its compilation was the work of many people, God always making Himself known to a gathering of people for all people, and it took 3,400 years to finally put it together as a book by the Catholic Church.

Blessings to you and I will today the Lord especially bless you in your ascent up the Mountain of the Lord.
 
KathleenGee said:
.I believe true Christians exist in all denominations, I experience the presence of God with my Jewish friends, and when Muslims affirm the one true God by seeing us all as one, then that is the presence of true religion…
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Amen, praise G-d for wisdom in you.

I oft ponder if it was not for meeting in Vatican II i would not be here in this form. I pray more Catholics embrace His goodness and act in this light.

Pray well and stay well Dear Sister
 
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