Galileo

[chris_stone]

Hi
Why did the representatives of the Catholic Church not know that the earth orbited the sun at the time of Galileo’s discoveries?
Was Galileo shown the instruments of torture to make him change his mind?
Chris Stone

 

[VociMike]

What is your understanding of the Galileo situation? What happened and why?

 

[Pro_Domina]

Listen the Church knew many things, as well as the agents of the Devil, long before they became common knowledge.

That the world was round, the Baby Jesus was depicted centuries ago with a globe in His hand.

And Gallileo did get in trouble for scientific theories. The Church is not NASA, though the Church was the greatest promoter of the arts and sciences. He got in trouble for religious heretical problems and several lies he said. Like all modern history, we were taught from the crib that the Church was the cause of the dark ages and that the Inquisition murdered thousands of people in Salem like hunts.

It could not be more the opposite.

 

[Shlomey]

Listen the Church knew many things, as well as the agents of the Devil, long before they became common knowledge.

That the world was round, the Baby Jesus was depicted centuries ago with a globe in His hand.

And Gallileo did get in trouble for scientific theories. The Church is not NASA, though the Church was the greatest promoter of the arts and sciences. He got in trouble for religious heretical problems and several lies he said. Like all modern history, we were taught from the crib that the Church was the cause of the dark ages and that the Inquisition murdered thousands of people in Salem like hunts.

It could not be more the opposite.

I’ve never heard of that one before. Care to elaborate? Please

 

[chris_stone]

My understanding of the Galileo situation was that his observations supported up the Copernican theory that the earth orbited the sun. (Copernicus based his theory on an earlier Islamic theory). The Church was indeed a “great promoter of arts and science” but in this instance it supported the Greek view that the sun orbited the earth and the stars and planets were fixed to moving crystal spheres. Galileo challenged the Church’s knowledge and also their authority. Because of the latter he was exiled despite recanting.
Within a few decades the Copernican model was generally accepted and formed the basis for the great advances made by Isaac Newton. If Galileo had not been silenced he might have beaten him to it!
Why didn’t the Church give Galileo the benefit of the doubt? Their scientists must have have some insight about the momentus changes to come. What were the lies that Galileo told?

 

[cassini]

Hi
Why did the representatives of the Catholic Church not know that the earth orbited the sun at the time of Galileo’s discoveries?
Was Galileo shown the instruments of torture to make him change his mind?
Chris Stone

chris,

you will get many different answers to the questions you pose. I have started up a similar thread today on Galileo’s proposed statue to be set up in the vatican this year to draw out this question. Do you want the truth, the anti-Catholic version or the Catholioc U-turn version?

I will start with the truth and let the other two positions contradict me.

1. Because nobody but God knew then or knows now if the earth orbits the sun or whether the sun orbits the earth. The holy Scriptures say the sun orbits the earth and so the Church in Galileo’s time adhered to what the Bible says, it being the word of God.
2. We do not know if Galileo was actually shown the instruments of torture. We do know he was threatened with torture. But we also knbow it was only a threat because Galileo was over 70 years old and nobody of that age could be tortured by canon law. We do not know if Galileo knew it was only a bluff.

 

[cassini]

That the world was round, the Baby Jesus was depicted centuries ago with a globe in His hand.
.

Pro Domina,

I am profoundly interested in the above. Can you elaborate please and tell me what you know. I was in Lisbon, Portugal a few years ago and the geocentric globe featured in their churches.

 

[MarcoPolo]

My understanding of the Galileo situation was that his observations supported up the Copernican theory that the earth orbited the sun. (Copernicus based his theory on an earlier Islamic theory). The Church was indeed a “great promoter of arts and science” but in this instance it supported the Greek view that the sun orbited the earth and the stars and planets were fixed to moving crystal spheres. Galileo challenged the Church’s knowledge and also their authority. Because of the latter he was exiled despite recanting.
Within a few decades the Copernican model was generally accepted and formed the basis for the great advances made by Isaac Newton. If Galileo had not been silenced he might have beaten him to it!
Why didn’t the Church give Galileo the benefit of the doubt? Their scientists must have have some insight about the momentus changes to come. What were the lies that Galileo told?

Gallileo was not tortured. He was put under house arrest briefly for teaching something the Church did not want taught at the time. The Church did not give him the benefit of the doubt because the majority of Church fathers interpreted Scripture literally that the earth was the center of the universe. Today that has developed as more of an allegory, but no official position has been made. Gallileo did have supporters within the Church at the time, such as Father Paolo Foscarini. Gallileo’s error was his claim of a heliocentric universe (sun centered).

 

[Scoobyshme]

Galileo got in trouble, not for his science, but because he couldn’t “prove” his theory at the time and was putting it forth as fact. The Church had no problem whatsoever with him putting forth his beliefs as a theory. Had he been able to “prove” his theory, then the Church would have allowed him to publish it as fact, with no repercussions. When he was put under house arrest, it was in one of the swankiest places in the region. He lived in luxury.

 

[cassini]

Galileo got in trouble, not for his science, but because he couldn’t “prove” his theory at the time and was putting it forth as fact. The Church had no problem whatsoever with him putting forth his beliefs as a theory. Had he been able to “prove” his theory, then the Church would have allowed him to publish it as fact, with no repercussions. When he was put under house arrest, it was in one of the swankiest places in the region. He lived in luxury.

Not quite accurate. In the first place one must have an understanding of the Church’s position before and in the wake of Copernicus’s book de Revolutionibus. The Fathers of the Church accepted the literal interpretation of Scripture that states as clearly as the nose on your face that the sun moves and the earth does not. Nothing can change this and the unanimous acceptance of such a doctrine by the Fathers has always been accepted as infallible.
All Christendom knew this, both Catholic and Protestant. Copernicus certainly knew this as did Osiander, a Protestant colleague of Copernicus. Accordingly, this caused a problem for Copernicus who was influenced by the hermetic writings that were heliocentric in essence. Remember heliocentricism was a phallic religion first set up by those descendants of Noah that rejected the true God.
so, how could Copernicus get away with his presentation of the heliocentric theory as a reality? Osiander said he would write a preface in which the heliocentricism inherent in the book would be offered as a method of calculation and not as a reality or a truth. The word used to describe this was ‘hypothesis’, which we understand to be a theory offered awaiting proof or falsification.
Now in the wake of the 1741, 1820 U-turn on the anti-heliocentric book ban, Catholics have revised history making this hypothesis suit a meaning never accepted by the Church.

Galileo, who accepted the H theory for years while pretending to support the G of Scripture, got bolder and began mouthing that the interpreters of Scripture got it wrong and that the bible should be read according to the ‘proofs’ he was providing. In 1616, Pope Paul V put a stop to all this speculation so defined and declared the assertion that the sun did not move as formal heresy. Galileo was told of this and ordered never again to promulgate the heresy that the sun was still and that it was the earth that moved about it while spinning.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi
Why did the representatives of the Catholic Church not know that the earth orbited the sun at the time of Galileo’s discoveries?
Was Galileo shown the instruments of torture to make him change his mind?
Chris Stone

Why Did the Catholic Church Condemn Galileo?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305sbs.asp

The Galileo Controversy
catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp

**Twisting the Knife **
**How Galileo Brought His Troubles with the Church on Himself **
By Wil Milan
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea4.asp

 

[Shlomey]

Not quite accurate. In the first place one must have an understanding of the Church’s position before and in the wake of Copernicus’s book de Revolutionibus. The Fathers of the Church accepted the literal interpretation of Scripture that states as clearly as the nose on your face that the sun moves and the earth does not.** Nothing can change this and the unanimous acceptance of such a doctrine by the Fathers has always been accepted as infallible.**All Christendom knew this, both Catholic and Protestant. Copernicus certainly knew this as did Osiander, a Protestant colleague of Copernicus. Accordingly, this caused a problem for Copernicus who was influenced by the hermetic writings that were heliocentric in essence. Remember heliocentricism was a phallic religion first set up by those descendants of Noah that rejected the true God.
so, how could Copernicus get away with his presentation of the heliocentric theory as a reality? Osiander said he would write a preface in which the heliocentricism inherent in the book would be offered as a method of calculation and not as a reality or a truth. The word used to describe this was ‘hypothesis’, which we understand to be a theory offered awaiting proof or falsification.
Now in the wake of the 1741, 1820 U-turn on the anti-heliocentric book ban, Catholics have revised history making this hypothesis suit a meaning never accepted by the Church.

Galileo, who accepted the H theory for years while pretending to support the G of Scripture, got bolder and began mouthing that the interpreters of Scripture got it wrong and that the bible should be read according to the ‘proofs’ he was providing. In 1616, Pope Paul V put a stop to all this speculation so defined and declared the assertion that the sun did not move as formal heresy. Galileo was told of this and ordered never again to promulgate the heresy that the sun was still and that it was the earth that moved about it while spinning.

How can we explain this? I did hear before that the unanimous belief of the Christians constitutes a “truth”.
No infallibility then?
Or is this also only in regards to faith & morals?

 

[MarcoPolo]

How can we explain this? I did hear before that the unanimous belief of the Christians constitutes a “truth”.
No infallibility then?
Or is this also only in regards to faith & morals?

Only faith and morals:

Council of Trent - (I)n matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,–whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,–hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers

 

[Shlomey]

Only faith and morals:

Council of Trent - (I)n matters of faith, and of morals pertaining to the edification of Christian doctrine, --wresting the sacred Scripture to his own senses, presume to interpret the said sacred Scripture contrary to that sense which holy mother Church,–whose it is to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy Scriptures,–hath held and doth hold; or even contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers

Thanks a lot!

 

[mchale]

My understanding of the Galileo situation was that his observations supported up the Copernican theory that the earth orbited the sun. (Copernicus based his theory on an earlier Islamic theory). The Church was indeed a “great promoter of arts and science” but in this instance it supported the Greek view that the sun orbited the earth and the stars and planets were fixed to moving crystal spheres. Galileo challenged the Church’s knowledge and also their authority. Because of the latter he was exiled despite recanting.
Within a few decades the Copernican model was generally accepted and formed the basis for the great advances made by Isaac Newton. If Galileo had not been silenced he might have beaten him to it!
Why didn’t the Church give Galileo the benefit of the doubt? Their scientists must have have some insight about the momentus changes to come. What were the lies that Galileo told?

The politics of why Galileo got in trouble with the Catholic Church are rather torturous. As others have pointed out, part of the problem was that he tried to get theology rewritten to match his observations (though frankly none of his observations could be considered proof of the heliocentric theory). He also got fought in a turf fight between the Jesuits and the Dominicans and alienated the Jesuits who generally supported the Copernican model. Last he appears to have made fun of several major church figures of the time in his works (not the best way to make friends).

Now just a quick point about the idea of Galileo beating Newton to Newton’s advances. There is not a chance in the world of that happening. Besides of Galileo’s relatively advanced age when he died, there are a number of reasons why this is true.

Galileo supported Copernicus’ model of the Solar System which makes planetary orbits perfect circles around the Sun. Even in Galileo’s day, it was getting replaced by Kepler’s model of the Solar System where planets travel in elliptical orbits; Galileo knew of Kepler’s work and rejected it. That work however provides a much better model of the Solar System and was a necessary precursor to Newton’s Theory of Gravity. In addition Galileo seemed to be more of an experimental scientist; Newton’s theory essentially required the development of a new form of mathematics (Calculus); Galileo, as brilliant as he was, does not appear to have had Newton’s mathematical chops.

–
Bill

 

[StAnastasia]

My understanding of the Galileo situation was that his observations supported up the Copernican theory that the earth orbited the sun. (Copernicus based his theory on an earlier Islamic theory). ?

Actually, Copernicus revived the heliocentric theory held well prior to Islam by Aristarchus of Samos (310-230 BCE).

 

[Fidelis]

Why Did the Catholic Church Condemn Galileo?
By Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305sbs.asp

The Galileo Controversy
catholic.com/library/galileo_controversy.asp

**Twisting the Knife **
**How Galileo Brought His Troubles with the Church on Himself **
By Wil Milan
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea4.asp

Great links. Here are some more:

catholiceducation.org/links/search.cgi?query=galileo&mh=25&type=keyword&bool=and

Better to read researched and well-thought out articles first, before you take on a slew of sometimes conflicting opinions.

 

[cassini]

How can we explain this? I did hear before that the unanimous belief of the Christians constitutes a “truth”.
No infallibility then?
Or is this also only in regards to faith & morals?

Shlomey, you have been blessed with a love for truth. Oh how I hope your faith holds up. You are on the path that will test your faith as it has tested millions before you. Alas, all but a few have failed this test, prefering the word of men instead.

I tell you that the infallibility of the Fathers and of Pope Paul V’s 1616 decree has never been falsified. The fact is that only God knows the relative movements between the earth and sun. So far no man has ever falsified the Fathers, the Bible and the Church of 1616 and 1633.

But now that you know watch the devils come to destroy this faith telling us that man has ‘proven’ the sun is still relative to the earth. If you try to hold on to your Catholic instincts that should favour the divine guidance, they will laugh at you and ridicule your ‘scientific’ ignorance.

So now you know, but is your faith strong enough?

 

[Shlomey]

Shlomey, you have been blessed with a love for truth. Oh how I hope your faith holds up. You are on the path that will test your faith as it has tested millions before you. Alas, all but a few have failed this test, prefering the word of men instead.

I tell you that the infallibility of the Fathers and of Pope Paul V’s 1616 decree has never been falsified. The fact is that only God knows the relative movements between the earth and sun. So far no man has ever falsified the Fathers, the Bible and the Church of 1616 and 1633.

But now that you know watch the devils come to destroy this faith telling us that man has ‘proven’ the sun is still relative to the earth. If you try to hold on to your Catholic instincts that should favour the divine guidance, they will laugh at you and ridicule your ‘scientific’ ignorance.

So now you know, but is your faith strong enough?

Do you mean to say that the earth is the center of our solar system?

 

[Orogeny]

Do you mean to say that the earth is the center of our solar system?

Actually, what he will be telling you is that the earth is the center of the entire universe, not just the solar system.

Peace

Tim