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bscastro
Guest
I forgot a BIG one in my list up there - “People shouldn’t be expected to practice self-control”
Gallup: 82% of Catholics say contraception is ‘morally acceptable’
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FCEGM
Guest
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rlg94086
Guest
Yep. We stopped using artificial birth control in between our 2nd and 3rd child. We weren’t planning to have a 5th child (10 years younger than the 4th and 20 years younger than the 1st), but his conception wasn’t due to NFP ineffectiveness. My wife knew she was in the iffy zone and told me so. We chose to leave it up to God at that moment, and He blessed us with a wonderful son. My wife would prefer no further blessings, but we are still open to life.
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Moore11
Guest
It is a huge problem in the Church. One of the things that bothers me is when poll after poll and example after example comes out and we excuse it away. Only 1000 people?
How about practicing Cathoics? where was this done? Childless pews? Maybe there is a huge amount of infertility at our parish… and on and on. It is just like when the doctor shows you the tumor and you refuse to accept it. We have had too many second opinions here, it’s time to start combating the problem, not denying the numbers.
How about practicing Cathoics? where was this done? Childless pews? Maybe there is a huge amount of infertility at our parish… and on and on. It is just like when the doctor shows you the tumor and you refuse to accept it. We have had too many second opinions here, it’s time to start combating the problem, not denying the numbers.
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irishpatrick
Guest
*Come on folks, how can you doubt the numbers are at least close?
Mass attendance: 24-28%.
Confession rates: <10% in most parishes.
Abortion support: nearly the same rates as the general population.
Divorce rates: nearly the same rates as the general population.
Children born: dropping to close to general population rates.
Marriage rates: dropping to close to general population rates.
Living together: nearly the same rates as the general population.
The list goes on…but here is a huge one:
Percentage of Catholics who believe in the Real Present in the Eucharist: 30%!*
If only 30% of Catholics believe that the Eucharist is truly Jesus’ Real Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, then how can we think the contraception number is wrong?
Mass attendance: 24-28%.
Confession rates: <10% in most parishes.
Abortion support: nearly the same rates as the general population.
Divorce rates: nearly the same rates as the general population.
Children born: dropping to close to general population rates.
Marriage rates: dropping to close to general population rates.
Living together: nearly the same rates as the general population.
The list goes on…but here is a huge one:
Percentage of Catholics who believe in the Real Present in the Eucharist: 30%!*
If only 30% of Catholics believe that the Eucharist is truly Jesus’ Real Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, then how can we think the contraception number is wrong?
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exoflare
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I don’t doubt the numbers are at least close, as far as this poll is concerned, and I don’t deny that they probably mirror the larger nominal Catholic population pretty closely as well. There are just a lot of ignorant and/or obstinate Catholics out there and that’s been apparent to anyone remotely concerned for a good long while now. The thing I have a problem with is when some of these dissident Catholics want to argue that popularity is somehow a reliable gauge of truth, which can “change” with the times. As you point out, other core truths such as the Real Presence would also have to be swept under the rug if we held to that ridiculous standard.
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triumphguy
Guest
That’s right - the Church (and the Truth) is not a popularity contest.
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CaptFun
Guest
OK, where is the key word "Artificial" in this poll. Everyone knows that NFP could be considered “contraception” as are rhythm and abstinence - and are acceptable
if temporary acceptable methods permitted by the Church.
This is like the polls touting “stem cell research” and leaving out “embryonic” (i.e. - killing living embryos to get the stem cells) vs. adult stem cell research which doesn’t kill anyone, has actually helped people, and are a licit option according to the Church.
This is why George Orwell should be mandatory reading in our schools. The scoundrels dink with the language - in what is put in and what is left OUT.
if temporary acceptable methods permitted by the Church.
This is like the polls touting “stem cell research” and leaving out “embryonic” (i.e. - killing living embryos to get the stem cells) vs. adult stem cell research which doesn’t kill anyone, has actually helped people, and are a licit option according to the Church.
This is why George Orwell should be mandatory reading in our schools. The scoundrels dink with the language - in what is put in and what is left OUT.
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exoflare
Guest
While you are correct, I doubt the results would have been significantly different even if the poll writers had bothered to make that distinction.
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CaptFun
Guest
I don’t know about the accuracy of these polls, who is taking them, who they are asking or how the questions are worded … BUT, in lieu of answering this I’ll post an applicable scripture instead:
Matthew 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
Luke 14:34 “Salt is good, but if salt itself loses its taste, with what can its flavor be restored? 35 It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile; it is thrown out. Whoever has ears to hear ought to hear.”
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CaptFun
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I see what you are saying. Poll writers could have made a slight distinction and still got results that show many (most?!) Catholics don’t abide by Church teaching in this matter.
If it were phrased “Do you as a Catholic oppose Church teaching on the matter of contraception, artificial or approved methods?” the count might be significantly less than 82% I think.
The reason I think so is because of the reaction to the Obama Healthcare vs. Catholic institutions controversy and the reaction of Catholics. Even though the subject can be spun as health care, “women’s rights” and affirming “what most Catholics believe privately” on the subject of “artificial birth control.”
I do take polls with a grain of salt anyway - and I scrutinize how the questions are written.
It is easily manufactured news with predictable results if “done right” (i.e. wrong and sneaky).
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Moore11
Guest
It seems we Catholics want the polls to be worded just the way we want. Do you as a Weekly mass attendee, monthly confession going, Eucharist believing, obedient, conservative, homeschooling, ecological breastfeeding, praying the divine office every day,latin chanting, state of grace, virgin till you were married Catholic use birth control?
maybe then we would get the answers we seek. However
The fact of the matter is most Catholics are not obedient.
Shame on us. For not being better teachers of our faith and the Gospel.
maybe then we would get the answers we seek. However
The fact of the matter is most Catholics are not obedient.
Shame on us. For not being better teachers of our faith and the Gospel.
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rotlex
Guest
It’s very hard to understand actually. While on one side we say the “old laws” no longer apply in regards to food and such, we STILL return to the sin of Onan as the main defense against contraception. Sorry folks, it doesn’t fly.
While I do believe of course that any form on contraception that has a chance of killing an unborn child, (Of course no sterilization either), is morally wrong, I see nothing wrong with any other form, and would probably be included in that 82% if I was asked.
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elgar
Guest
So in other words, do as I say and not as I do. It’s like having an addiction, knowing it is wrong, but telling others to resist the temptation.
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CaptFun
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Actually I was addressing the validity of the poll given its extreme result - which was probably the “juice” of conducting it. “Look Catholics, your Church is wack!” was the point of even taking the poll IMO.
Your bringing up the question of hypocrisy is always a good thing. Of course hypocrisy is bad (and Jesus made a point of publicly preaching against it); but if the “do as I say” is correct - then at least the hypocrite is … RIGHT.
So yeah, DO as the right person says. And yes,we should RESIST the temptation if that’s the right thing to do - even if the only counsel we get is from a hypocrite who doesn’t live up to his own good advice.
I’m uncomfortable even using the word hypocrite - as its often the golden adjective used to justify all sorts of bad behavior.
Mea culpa, when I was married we (she) used artificial contraception EVERY time. And being the man, socially we are not supposed to say anything. All the more so since she was an “ex-Catholic”/agnostic. Well, intimacy between us was harmed - even if it was only on my side. I wasn’t much of a leader, and didn’t suggest NFP, though I think she’d have not agreed to it. It was not the only reason for the divorce (her divorce actually, I pledged for better or for worse) - but gadgets and barriers aren’t enhancements for intimacy - they are things that don’t belong in a true marriage.
While “the Church” gets portrayed as power mad buttinskys in the matter of sex education; the laws are for our good. I do envy the zeal the defenders of the condom industry seem to have. Would that Christ were defended with such passion.
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CaptFun
Guest
It seems we Catholics want the polls to be worded just the way we want. <Nah, just not deceptively would be fine with me. Adding the word “artificial” (which is what was meant, no?) would suffice.
Do you as a Weekly mass attendee, monthly confession going, Eucharist believing, obedient, conservative, homeschooling, ecological breastfeeding, praying the divine office every day,latin chanting, state of grace, virgin till you were married Catholic use birth control? < Gotta hand it to you. This was funny.
maybe then we would get the answers we seek. However
The fact of the matter is most Catholics are not obedient. < I fear you are correct. Most would still be 51%, 82% seems high. Of course I’m thinking of “real” Catholics.
Shame on us. For not being better teachers of our faith and the Gospel. < Amen.
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Elizium23
Guest
As has been pointed out already, Mosaic Law was fulfilled by Christ. Mosaic Law was given by the wisdom of the Jews for their own people under the Old Covenant. It was based on Divine Law and Natural Law, which do not change. Onan’s sin, like many in the Bible, was against Divine Law. As you may expect, Jesus made no changes or removals from Divine Law in His earthly ministry.
The Church has given us Canon Law, which is again based on Divine and Natural Law, but disciplinary in nature. It says nothing about contraception. It doesn’t have to, because contraception is a doctrinal matter. It is an intrinsic evil, and always has been. Canon Law says we can’t eat meat on Fridays, but shellfish is OK any time. It also says that episcopal conferences can change that law. See? Not part of Divine or Natural Law, a disciplinary addition. The principle of ritual cleanliness and clean or unclean animals was a matter for the Jews in their Temple worship under the Old Covenant. You can clearly see that this law was no longer in effect by reading Acts of the Apostles.
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JimG
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I distrust the poll numbers. I know many Catholics who are absolutely opposed to artificial contraception, and who practice what they preach.
Still, even if the poll were accurate, it would simply mean that 82% of Catholics are wrong on a Catholic moral doctrine. The doctrine won’t change.
Those who think that contraception is benign should go back, and first read, or re-read Humanae Vitae, then read “Adam and Eve After The Pill” by Mary Eberstadt, and think hard about what the actual societal results of widespread contraception have been.
Still, even if the poll were accurate, it would simply mean that 82% of Catholics are wrong on a Catholic moral doctrine. The doctrine won’t change.
Those who think that contraception is benign should go back, and first read, or re-read Humanae Vitae, then read “Adam and Eve After The Pill” by Mary Eberstadt, and think hard about what the actual societal results of widespread contraception have been.
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Moore11
Guest
I hear this a lot. people distrusting these poll numbers and you may be right.
Question: What percentage would you “trust” as accurate?
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Catholic1954
Guest
Actually, I think 82% is probably too low. It’s time for our bishops to start teaching the magisterium and leave the social justice politics alone.
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