Gallup: Drop in U.S. Catholic Church Attendance Under Pope Francis Sharpest in

[ATraveller]

Maybe because a lot of Protestant churches are “easier”?

That what most former Catholics I know say. The choose non-denominational churches with upbeat music, multi- media presentations, coffee bars and lots of fellowship opportunities, but no real doctrine except accept Jesus as your savior then you’re good! No guilt, no sin, it’s all good!

Yes and no.
Some are light on doctrine. Some aren’t despite the flashiness of them. The key here is to look not at outwardly things but what is actually preached. Some don’t have issues with mentioning uncomfortable topics in their main services. Some save those for weeknight Bible studies or services for particular members e.g. young adults.

 

[AlNg]

Maybe because a lot of Protestant churches are “easier”?

Not all though.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Exactly. I think part of it is that the whole thing is just getting a little old, repetitive. Francis et al. vs. the über-orthodox Catholics. The battle has lost its freshness even to insiders. As for outsiders, they don’t know enough details to care. The Church has a bit of a worn vibe. Been there done that. Harmless, defanged, but that is about the best that can be said about it.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Interesting details and interesting discussion:

https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/vortex-life-changing

Transcript:

Of course, the heart of the Retreat at Sea is prayer — the Rosary, Benediction, Liturgy of the Hours, and of course the highest form of prayer, daily Mass. Then there are the conferences, 10 in all, and the theme for this year’s conferences was “The Glories of the Faith,” chosen especially for Easter week. Along the way, we were hearing that a good number of people were simply unaware of some of what we were talking about either in the homilies or the conferences about various Church teachings, as well as for example, the Liturgy of the Hours. We heard what we hear quite a bit: “I’ve never heard any of this before.”

So, we altered the schedule somewhat and had what was essentially a remedial session on the state of the Church and the vast changes that have occurred and become routine in the past 50 years and how those changes have severely altered Catholic self-identity. Quite a number of people were flat out amazed when we presented to them a brief history of how many Churchmen have tried behind the scenes to damage the faith of the people — how the Modernist heresy had made such inroads into the faith; how Catholic seminaries and universities had become hotbeds for theological revolution; how Catholic devotional life had dwindled down to barely a flicker. They had next to no idea about the changes in the liturgy that had opened the door for multiple abuses, all of which had combined to dummy down the glories of the Faith. All of this has gone on for so long now, multiple generations, that it has just become accepted as normal.

They had no idea — had never heard — that Vatican II had never called for the priest to face the people, to abandon Latin, to stand and receive Holy Communion in the hand, to get rid of the organ and sacred music and replace them with protestantized sappy songs played on guitar. They had been duped, all those years ago, by Churchmen who greatly desired to change the Church and Churchmen today, who desire to stamp out whatever last vestiges of traditional Catholicism they can find.

 

[MonteRCMS]

continued:

The funny thing, however, is that today it is traditional, authentic Catholicism that is on the ascent as this giant facade of phony Catholicism begins to crumble to pieces as is fitting. And we aren’t talking about just the Latin Mass but more precisely about a better understanding and knowledge of the authentic faith. More and more Catholics are coming to understand that what they see each Sunday in their parishes is not the authentic faith but a cheap knock-off with only the barest essential elements of the Faith present. More are beginning to realize instinctively that they are not being fed, there is little to no reverence, the Mass is treated as more like a performance than the sacrifice that it is and most especially that they have been duped.

Even among the young, a movement is afoot. They are either leaving the Church of Nice because they have been completely blinded to the need for the holy in their lives or for those who are aware they too are leaving and finding that spiritual nourishment in parishes that do live and profess the authentic faith. In either case, because there are no young to speak of, the Church of Nice in just a few short years will be populated by nothing but aging hippy Catholics nearing death. In fact, in a large number of locales that is already the story. What few numbers of Catholics who have remained faithful are deserting the Church of Nice whenever possible and if not in body, certainly in spirit. They are turning to the internet to discover through various faithful Catholic sources that they have been lied to for generations.

Church Militant is blessed and grateful to be one of those sources exposing the great lie.

 

[MarisStella123]

My sense from talking to young people is that men and women are leaving for different reasons. Young women love Jesus, but are repulsed by the notion that they are barred from proclaiming the Gospel or delivering the homily during Mass because of their gender.

I’m a young woman and I’m horrified at the thought of proclaiming the Gospel or delivering the homily. I’m got my place and the priest has his!

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

My sense from talking to young people is that men and women are leaving for different reasons. Young women love Jesus, but are repulsed by the notion that they are barred from proclaiming the Gospel or delivering the homily during Mass because of their gender.

I’m a young woman and I’m horrified at the thought of proclaiming the Gospel or delivering the homily. I’m got my place and the priest has his!

Well, nobody is asking you to.

However, there are other young women who feel differently. There is no in Persona Christi aspect to reading the Gospel and giving a homily, so we are not talking about a priestly function. Deacons do it all the time.

 

[MarisStella123]

Lol, ya I mean deacons too . At any rate, devotion and love for God would (should) make any woman cringe at doing a consecrated man’s duty.

 

[Luke6_37]

because there are no young to speak of, the Church of Nice in just a few short years will be populated by nothing but aging hippy Catholics nearing death.

Total load of BS. The arrogant and self righteous attitude of some Traditionalists rivals that of Calvinists. You can have your smells & bells - they are pretty enough and likely pleasing to God, but don’t get all high and mighty with your piety, you are still nothing more than a sinner who is entirely dependant upon the merit & grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ for your salvation - just like everyone else. You’ve got nothing to boast about.

Your type of parish (if it is a parish) may bring one type of religious person to faith, but what about the rest? There are many types of religious people. The eyes are not the feet or the hands or heart, and all are necessary to the Body of Christ. How do you deal with this diversity?

 

[Luke6_37]

Lol, ya I mean deacons too . At any rate, devotion and love for God would (should) make any woman cringe at doing a consecrated man’s duty.

If you cringe at the idea of a women proclaiming the Gospel, it must mean you either don’t know or don’t respect the ancient Tradition of the church. That doesn’t surprise me. Many Traditionalist are actually Medievalists who forget the 1,000 years of Church Tradition that preceded the 11th century.

In the first century, Scripture records that Mary Magdalene was the first person commissioned by Jesus to announce the Resurrection. Phoebe, a deacon, delivered and read Paul’s letter to the Romans. Junia, an Apostle, proclaimed the Gospel with Andronicus.

In the 2nd century, a very popular extra biblical story called “The Acts of Paul and Thecla” features a woman who abandoned everything to follow Saint Paul and preach the Gospel.

In the 4th century, the oldest ordination rite for female deacons that still survives was recorded.

In the 6th century, an image was made of of Saint Thecla with Saint Paul that depicts the two of them holding up their hands in an identical gesture that indicates teaching authority.

In 2017, Patriarch Theodoros II and the Greek Orthodox Holy Synod of the Patriarchate of Alexandria have jointly decided to reinstate the order of deaconesses.

Given all this, maybe you should not rush to judgement so quickly.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Right, is it really a discussion board when it is being flooded with posts that are sourced entirely from elsewhere and youtube videos?

Yes.

Reflects poster’s opinion.

 

[MonteRCMS]

My sense from talking to young people is that men and women are leaving for different reasons. Young women love Jesus, but are repulsed by the notion that they are barred from proclaiming the Gospel or delivering the homily during Mass because of their gender.

Priests and deacons proclaim the Gospels and deliver homilies at Mass, but only after years of training and study.

The Catholic Church does not ordain women to the priesthood or diaconate.

Men may enter the priesthood or diaconate … but only after years of rigorous training and lifelong commitment.

Non-Ordained people can do Communion Services, and proclaim the Gospel and offer a reflection.

 

[DustThouArt]

Your use of extra biblical sources and questionable icons does not trump the Magesterium of The Church. Nor does non approved sources help your argument. I would add that ad hominum accusations show just how thin your arguments really are. You are not the first to attempt to use vague anecdotes from the early Church to attack Tradition and Magisterial Teaching. Many of those aligned against Trent have done this for decades.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

My sense from talking to young people is that men and women are leaving for different reasons. Young women love Jesus, but are repulsed by the notion that they are barred from proclaiming the Gospel or delivering the homily during Mass because of their gender.

Priests and deacons proclaim the Gospels and deliver homilies at Mass, but only after years of training and study.

The Catholic Church does not ordain women to the priesthood or diaconate.

Men may enter the priesthood or diaconate … but only after years of rigorous training and lifelong commitment.

Non-Ordained people can do Communion Services, and proclaim the Gospel and offer a reflection.

Nice review of the current practices.

As you can see from reading my previous post…

Gallup: Drop in U.S. Catholic Church Attendance Under Pope Francis Sharpest in Catholic News

If you cringe at the idea of a women proclaiming the Gospel, it must mean you either don’t know or don’t respect the ancient Tradition of the church. That doesn’t surprise me. Many Traditionalist are actually Medievalists who forget the 1,000 years of Church Tradition that preceded the 11th century. In the first century, Scripture records that Mary Magdalene was the first person commissioned by Jesus to announce the Resurrection. Phoebe, a deacon, delivered and read Paul’s letter to the Romans…

…they do not reflect the ancient Tradition of the Church, but rather medieval innovations.

There are all sorts of reasons why the Church may deviate from the original practices established by the Apostles. Culture and politics often have a great influence on them, as was the case for many changes introduced during the Middle Ages. Such innovations may serve a purpose for a certain era, but when that purpose ceases to exist, there is no reason why the Church should not revert back to earlier practices established by the Apostles in the churches they founded, especially in light of current pastoral needs.

For example, in the first century Scripture records that the permanent diaconate was established by the Apostles who chose Stephen for that role. Paul follows this tradition when he sets up his churches. He refers to presbyters and deacons throughout his letters

During the middle ages innovations were introduced that made the diaconate a stepping stone to the priesthood. This was done for strictly political reasons. These remained today, but at Vatican II, the Bishops decided to revisit the situation and reinstate the original Permanent Diaconate created by the Apostles.

We are still moving towards that goal, but largely due to pure sexism have not fully realized it. So there is a good reason why many of the best and brightest women in the church are leaving and taking their children with them.

Galatians 3:28 NABRE - - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Luke6_37]

Your use of extra biblical sources and questionable icons does not trump the Magesterium of The Church. Nor does non approved sources help your argument.

The first thing I cited was Scripture. So you can’t argue with that.

The other sources I cited are historical records that the Magisterium accepts as orthodox. Writings such as The Acts of Paul and Thecla are part of the Tradition of the Church - just as are the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, the Shepherd of Hermes, The Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus, and many other ORTHODOX Christians writings from the second century onward.

It is an extra Biblical source called The Protoevangelium of James that gives us the names of Mary’s parents and provides the earliest witness to her perpetual virginity. Is this part of the canon of scripture - NO. But it is a valuable witness to widely held beliefs of orthodox Christians in the second century and the basis upon which a key Marian dogma was defined.

I would add that ad hominum accusations show just how thin your arguments really are.

This is a pure falsehood. I did nothing of the sort. Saying that many Traditionalists are actually Medievalists is simply a fact and proven by your own words…

You are not the first to attempt to use vague anecdotes from the early Church to attack Tradition and Magisterial Teaching. Many of those aligned against Trent have done this for decades

Nothing wrong with Trent as long as you understand it within the context of the previous 1500 years of Church history and the 500 years subsequent to it.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Women TEACH the Gospel … ALL THE TIME … women run most of the catechical programs.

 

[MonteRCMS]

I would argue it indicates that a poster lacks of ability to form and/or articulate his own opinions and gives an impression that he absorbs and regurgitates fringe views or those unsupported by facts.

I acknowledge that some people are more articulate than me.

 

[MarisStella123]

If you cringe at the idea of a women proclaiming the Gospel, it must mean you either don’t know or don’t respect the ancient Tradition of the church. That doesn’t surprise me. Many Traditionalist are actually Medievalists who forget the 1,000 years of Church Tradition that preceded the 11th century

It’s fine if woman proclaim the Gospel… but outside of Mass. A certain order is prescribed in this sacred duty - it belongs to the Priest. A woman best ‘serves’ and ‘participates’ by her prayers and presence, not by being up in front. The purpose of Mass is to put God first, to adore and worship Him.

For you may all prophesy one by one; that all may learn, and all may be exhorted: [32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. [33] For God is not the God of dissension, but of peace: as also I teach in all the churches of the saints. [34] Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. [35] But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.

• I Corinthians 14:31-35

 

[AlNg]

We are still moving towards that goal, but largely due to pure sexism have not fully realized it. So there is a good reason why many of the best and brightest women in the church are leaving and taking their children with them.

What is the goal you are moving towards?

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke6_37:

If you cringe at the idea of a women proclaiming the Gospel, it must mean you either don’t know or don’t respect the ancient Tradition of the church. That doesn’t surprise me. Many Traditionalist are actually Medievalists who forget the 1,000 years of Church Tradition that preceded the 11th century

It’s fine if woman proclaim the Gospel… but outside of Mass. A certain order is prescribed in this sacred duty - it belongs to the Priest. A woman best ‘serves’ and ‘participates’ by her prayers and presence, not by being up in front. The purpose of Mass is to put God first, to adore and worship Him.

For you may all prophesy one by one; that all may learn, and all may be exhorted: [32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. [33] For God is not the God of dissension, but of peace: as also I teach in all the churches of the saints. [34] Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith. [35] But if they would learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church.

• I Corinthians 14:31-35

You think that settles it? Well, then how do you explain this earlier passage from the same letter?

On Covering the Head in Worship (1 Corinthians 11:1-6; NABRE )

2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is the same as having her head shaved. 6 For if a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

Here is what you need to explain:

1. Here, Paul does not forbid women to pray or prophesize, he just says they should have their head covered while doing it.
2. Covering one’s head in church is entirely optional for women today and rarely happens.

As for the passage you quoted, if you took it at face value, it would not simply bar women from proclaiming the Gospel, it would render them completely silent in church. But…

1. Women today are not silent in church! Far from it. It is required that they speak out loud to say the responses, sing the hymns and pray the prayers. They are not spectators at the liturgy.
2. Women are also Cantors, Lectors and Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion!

You know, maybe it would be better for SOME women and men to remain silent until they have learned their faith sufficiently to explain it accurately to others.