Gallup Poll shows Pope Francis is not so “Laudato” these days [Fr. Z]

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Really? Not a fan? This pope has done more to 're-establish the dreadfully tarnished reputation of the Church, due to the paedophile priests scandals, the Vatican bank and Curia scandals, the medieval attitudes towards women and the family than anyone could have imagined possible. He lives in the spirit of the gospels, he is humble and loving and has done wonders for Cuba, that poor place, in reconciling it with the US. God bless Father Francis, the Holy Spirit sent him in our time of great need.
 
Susannon said:
I have spent a good amount of time, st francis, looking at commentaries, thoughts, and researching ideas on this verse today and can’t find anywhere the idea that it is people’s souls we are not to judge, but that we can pass judgement on their actions. Please can you point out where you got this from? I really would like to know, as I do believe that Jesus was telling us to worry about our own sins and not those of other people.
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Jesus said to take care of our own sins FIRST before we admonish someone else. One of the Spiritual works of Mercy is to admonish the sinner! That’s NOT judging the destiny of their soul. We leave that up to God. That is Church teaching and I’m sure that’s what Pope Francis meant. The Catholic Church also teaches us to pray for the conversion of sinners, so yes. we ARE to be concerned about other’s sins. God Bless, Memaw
 
I have not come across any anecdotal evidence of the popularity of Pope Francis diminishing. Perhaps just among conservatives
 
Please point me to the place in the gospels where Jesus says we are to admonish other people for their sins. Seriously, where does he say that? I can tell you the place where he talks about casting the first stone.
 
Susannon said:
Please point me to the place in the gospels where Jesus says we are to admonish other people for their sins. Seriously, where does he say that? I can tell you the place where he talks about casting the first stone.
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Read James, 5-19, Have you never learned the Spiritual works of Mercy??? God Bless, Memaw
 
So still not Jesus then? And isn’t James talking about bringing back to the truth the believers whose doctrine is in error? I don’t think that is admonishing, terrible word, people who are living.g together, for example, do you?
Also, your talk on spiritual works of mercy doesn’t seem to realise that condemnation of people no more sinners than you are is arrogant, prideful and certainly not merciful. If you are the cure of ars, or st francis then maybe, but they were loving and kind, not condemning.
Once again, where did the Man who said blessed are the merciful, judge not, treat others as you would want to be treated, let the one without sin cast the first stone, where did he give you the right to “admonish”?
I think the answer is that Jesus never said anything of the sort, any more than he said anything sexist, racist, homophobic, hateful, much as you would expect from the Son of God who is Love.
May he bless you too.
 
Susannon said:
So still not Jesus then? And isn’t James talking about bringing back to the truth the believers whose doctrine is in error? I don’t think that is admonishing, terrible word, people who are living.g together, for example, do you?
Also, your talk on spiritual works of mercy doesn’t seem to realise that condemnation of people no more sinners than you are is arrogant, prideful and certainly not merciful. If you are the cure of ars, or st francis then maybe, but they were loving and kind, not condemning.
Once again, where did the Man who said blessed are the merciful, judge not, treat others as you would want to be treated, let the one without sin cast the first stone, where did he give you the right to “admonish”?
I think the answer is that Jesus never said anything of the sort, any more than he said anything sexist, racist, homophobic, hateful, much as you would expect from the Son of God who is Love.
May he bless you too.
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Seems to me you have made up your own mind about what Jesus taught. Don’t forget, HE did give us a Church that would teach us the TRUTH, guided by the Holy Spirit till the end of time. His Church can NOT teach error. And like I said before the Church does teach us the Spiritual Works of Mercy including to admonish the sinner. If we can help someone recognize their sin and we don’t bother because we don’t want to be unkind or “holier than thou” appearing, then we are failing Our Lord. Is it “merciful” to let them go on in the sin?? He did say to go out into the world and preach the Gospel. You need to talk to a priest to get this straightened out as I doubt anything I say will make a difference. Our opinion may very well be out of line with Church teaching. God Bless, Memaw
 
Don’t we all make up our own minds once we have read the gospels? Still you haven’t answered my question - where does Jesus tell us to condemn/admonish/judge?
As for the Church not changing its teaching how about flat earth, Earth as the centre of the Universe, slavery, Judaism and its responsibility for the crucifixion, married priests, relationships with other branches of Christianity, even other religions, the Church having the only Truth, do I need to go on?
Maybe you don’t think people in the Church should have their own opinions, or thoughts? Where would the Doctors of the Church be in that case? Oh and as to change in the Church related to this I don’t think we burn heretics any more!
 
Susannon said:
Please point me to the place in the gospels where Jesus says we are to admonish other people for their sins. Seriously, where does he say that? I can tell you the place where he talks about casting the first stone.
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I didn’t realize that St. Paul’s letters ceased to be scriptural. If they were we would have plenty of examples of a sinner admonishing the sinner. But they don’t count because they aren’t scripture I guess.
 
Why do people always quote Paul to justify doctrines that didn’t come from Jesus? Paul was often contradictory, so difficult to use for your ideas of Truth. For example "there is no male or female, we are all on in Christ, compared to women should keep quiet in church, obey their husbands, cover their heads, and all the rest of this misogyny. Compare this with Our Lord who treated women truly as human beings and not sub-humans, so much so that he first appeared to a woman after his Resurrection.
Once again, where does Jesus contradict his own teaching on “who will cast the first stone?”
I see you have nothing to say on the Church changing its teachings?
 
Susannon said:
As for the Church not changing its teaching how about flat earth, Earth as the centre of the Universe, slavery, Judaism and its responsibility for the crucifixion, married priests, relationships with other branches of Christianity, even other religions, the Church having the only Truth, do I need to go on?
Maybe you don’t think people in the Church should have their own opinions, or thoughts? Where would the Doctors of the Church be in that case? Oh and as to change in the Church related to this I don’t think we burn heretics any more!
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It does seem to me that the Catholic Church has changed some of its teachings. For many years, in the Mass, it was stated that the Blood was shed for all. Even the Pope said so in some of his Masses. But now it is stated that the Blood was shed for many. The reasons for granting a marriage annulment have been extended. Some non-Catholics have the permission to receive Holy Communion. Women are allowed to say a communion service.
 
Tomdstone said:
It does seem to me that the Catholic Church has changed some of its teachings. For many years, in the Mass, it was stated that the Blood was shed for all. Even the Pope said so in some of his Masses. But now it is stated that the Blood was shed for many. The reasons for granting a marriage annulment have been extended. Some non-Catholics have the permission to receive Holy Communion. Women are allowed to say a communion service.
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You would be wise to talk to a priest about all your issues. You clearly do not understand the difference between Doctrine and discipline. You need some serious guidance. When will we ever learn that WE do NOT run the Church. God Bless, Memaw
 
Susannon said:
Please point me to the place in the gospels where Jesus says we are to admonish other people for their sins. Seriously, where does he say that? I can tell you the place where he talks about casting the first stone.
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Luke 17:3 “If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.”
 
If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him and if he repeats forgive him". Compare this to dragging out a woman and stoning her for adultery - a woman who isn’t your wife, or even, today, two people living together who people feel they are allowed to condemn. My sister might tell me a lie, I talk to her and she says sorry and I forgive her. That is Very Different to condemning people because you don’t approve of their behaviour which doesn’t affect you personally. I think we all know that judging someone because you don’t like the way they live is very different, when it has nothing to do with you personally.
As to ruling the Church, that is Our Lord’s place, and through him father Francis, which brings us back to the beginning “who am I to judge?” Says that holy man. God bless him.
 
Susannon said:
I have spent a good amount of time, st francis, looking at commentaries, thoughts, and researching ideas on this verse today and can’t find anywhere the idea that it is people’s souls we are not to judge, but that we can pass judgement on their actions. Please can you point out where you got this from? I really would like to know, as I do believe that Jesus was telling us to worry about our own sins and not those of other people.
Click to expand...
When the crowd was ready to stone a woman caught in adultery, Jesus asked the one who had no sin to cast the first stone. The crowd went away leaving Jesus with the woman. He told her" Neither do I condemn you. Go, and SIN no more" I think Jesus was pretty clear on that.
 
Susannon said:
If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him and if he repeats forgive him". Compare this to dragging out a woman and stoning her for adultery - a woman who isn’t your wife, or even, today, two people living together who people feel they are allowed to condemn. My sister might tell me a lie, I talk to her and she says sorry and I forgive her. That is Very Different to condemning people because you don’t approve of their behaviour which doesn’t affect you personally. I think we all know that judging someone because you don’t like the way they live is very different, when it has nothing to do with you personally.
As to ruling the Church, that is Our Lord’s place, and through him father Francis, which brings us back to the beginning “who am I to judge?” Says that holy man. God bless him.
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That is your interpretation. Try reading the two prior verses (Luke 17:1-2). Is Jesus not talking about sin in general?
 
Susannon said:
If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him and if he repeats forgive him". Compare this to dragging out a woman and stoning her for adultery - a woman who isn’t your wife, or even, today, two people living together who people feel they are allowed to condemn. My sister might tell me a lie, I talk to her and she says sorry and I forgive her. That is Very Different to condemning people because you don’t approve of their behaviour which doesn’t affect you personally. I think we all know that judging someone because you don’t like the way they live is very different, when it has nothing to do with you personally.
As to ruling the Church, that is Our Lord’s place, and through him father Francis, which brings us back to the beginning “who am I to judge?” Says that holy man. God bless him.
Click to expand...
Also, when one sins it affects us all.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm
 
Susannon said:
If thy brother sin against thee, reprove him and if he repeats forgive him". Compare this to dragging out a woman and stoning her for adultery - a woman who isn’t your wife, or even, today, two people living together who people feel they are allowed to condemn. My sister might tell me a lie, I talk to her and she says sorry and I forgive her. That is Very Different to condemning people because you don’t approve of their behaviour which doesn’t affect you personally. I think we all know that judging someone because you don’t like the way they live is very different, when it has nothing to do with you personally.
As to ruling the Church, that is Our Lord’s place, and through him father Francis, which brings us back to the beginning “who am I to judge?” Says that holy man. God bless him.
Click to expand...
You need to read what he actually said, not what the media says he said !! God Bless, Memaw
 
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