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Memaw
Guest
You seem to have an ax to grind, maybe your doing a little judging of your own, God Bless, Memaw
Gallup Poll shows Pope Francis is not so “Laudato” these days [Fr. Z]
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insideitall
Guest
susannon, are you saying that if jesus didn’t explicitly forbid something, that it should by default be accepted? that because he didn’t personally give a complete list of every sin that anyone could ever possibly commit, and then follow that with a template for how to tell them to stop, that it somehow excuses us from helping our fellow man get to heaven?
though on the plus side, it’ll make the bible much quicker to read, if we only need to pay attention to what jesus himself said.
though on the plus side, it’ll make the bible much quicker to read, if we only need to pay attention to what jesus himself said.
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Mongo
Guest
Atleast we are clear now that you only accept the parts of scripture that you like. You have your interpretation and anything that doesn’t fit with it doesn’t count.
All things are acceptable, we should abandon our principles in favor of non-judgement.
All things are acceptable, we should abandon our principles in favor of non-judgement.
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Susannon
Guest
I am very interested in this argument in the fact that some of the people writing are constantly telling me to do something, talk to a priest, read this, you don’t understand this, you need guidance, you have a problem, you think this or that. This is very funny as it is supporting my argument in that I have made no personal remarks about the people posting who are all telling me to do something, or to stop doing something.
Does it not occur to you that this is about argument, this is a discussion, a really fundamental one. I was very happy to read insideitall’s comments, in that he was engaging in discussion and not telling me to do something! Refreshing.
Now about Mongo saying I have my own interpretations, we all do that mongo, it just so happens that yours seem to fall heavily on the side of orthodoxy, and we all know where unchallenged orthodoxy leads - do I have to bring up the Inquisition again?
Also where did I mention abandoning my principles? My principles are about kindness, treating other people with respect for their different principles, not condemnation but understanding and humility in that we can all learn and are all great sinners.
Memaw, you accuse me of judging, well yes of course we all make judgements, I.e. about father Francis, but I would hesitate to criticise God’s elect, and the Rock of the Church, wouldn’t you? I do seem to remember a few years ago how we were all told that Benedict had to be accepted hook, line and sinker, as did JP2. How strange it us that those same people are not using those exact rules in terms of father Francis. Inconsistent?
Isn’t Jesus wonderful! As asked I have reread Luke 17:1 - 2, and been struck by his use of the word “stumble”, miss our footing. Lovely. We all make mistakes.
Then he gives a terrible warning to the corrupters of children. Hmm, here is where I become inconsistent. Adults living their lives in their own way are one thing. Adults killing the unborn and adults, especially priests, corrupting and raping children are another thing altogether. And adults covering up, moving those priests to another parish to allow them to continue in the name of protecting the Church deserve to have their own milestones too, in their enabling.
Is there not a difference in protecting the innocent by condemning the abusers, and disliking the way other adults live their lives? Can’t you see a difference?
Does it not occur to you that this is about argument, this is a discussion, a really fundamental one. I was very happy to read insideitall’s comments, in that he was engaging in discussion and not telling me to do something! Refreshing.
Now about Mongo saying I have my own interpretations, we all do that mongo, it just so happens that yours seem to fall heavily on the side of orthodoxy, and we all know where unchallenged orthodoxy leads - do I have to bring up the Inquisition again?
Also where did I mention abandoning my principles? My principles are about kindness, treating other people with respect for their different principles, not condemnation but understanding and humility in that we can all learn and are all great sinners.
Memaw, you accuse me of judging, well yes of course we all make judgements, I.e. about father Francis, but I would hesitate to criticise God’s elect, and the Rock of the Church, wouldn’t you? I do seem to remember a few years ago how we were all told that Benedict had to be accepted hook, line and sinker, as did JP2. How strange it us that those same people are not using those exact rules in terms of father Francis. Inconsistent?
Isn’t Jesus wonderful! As asked I have reread Luke 17:1 - 2, and been struck by his use of the word “stumble”, miss our footing. Lovely. We all make mistakes.
Then he gives a terrible warning to the corrupters of children. Hmm, here is where I become inconsistent. Adults living their lives in their own way are one thing. Adults killing the unborn and adults, especially priests, corrupting and raping children are another thing altogether. And adults covering up, moving those priests to another parish to allow them to continue in the name of protecting the Church deserve to have their own milestones too, in their enabling.
Is there not a difference in protecting the innocent by condemning the abusers, and disliking the way other adults live their lives? Can’t you see a difference?
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string1399
Guest
Jesus is truly wonderful, and that is why He gave us the Church (Matthew 16:18) which put together the collection of letters and writings that we call the Bible. And nowhere in the Bible does anyone say all matters of religious doctrine and practice can be found in the Bible only (sola scriptura) or an even your narrower requirement earlier to just what Jesus is quoted as saying. I’m sure that you are aware that nobody followed Jesus around with a microphone, dictating everything that was said. The Gospels were written several years after Jesus ascended into heaven. Since it is through the Church that we received the Bible, don’t you think we all should see what the Church has to say about it before we follow our own interpretation?
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insideitall
Guest
you didn’t answer my question.
of course there is a difference between different types of sins. and like someone else already said, sin never is only about the person sinning. some are more obvious than others… but if the whole concept of sin is that it makes a person more distant from god, it can clearly be reasoned that the further away one gets from god the less godly they will be toward their fellow men. therefore, every sin affects not just the sinner but everyone they come in contact with.
since it doesn’t seem possible to have a discussion about sin without someone bringing up homosexuality… if two men or two women want to live as a married couple, on the surface it seems as if they are only involving themselves, and since it’s consensual that therefore there’s no problem, so for those that believe it is a sin it would be between them and their god and not involve anyone else. but let’s talk about the children! if a homosexual couple moves in next door, now the neighbor children are exposed to people flaunting their lifestyle as normal and acceptable. the court has already decided that states must perform their legal union ceremony and call it a marriage. schools read books about children with two daddies or two mommies, and tell students in health class that the behavior is completely normal. in this particular example, it is not just between the two adults involved.
people dislike others telling them they’re sinning because of hubris. and often, the people trying to correct others aren’t very tactful at doing so. doesn’t mean we should give up, though:shrug:
of course there is a difference between different types of sins. and like someone else already said, sin never is only about the person sinning. some are more obvious than others… but if the whole concept of sin is that it makes a person more distant from god, it can clearly be reasoned that the further away one gets from god the less godly they will be toward their fellow men. therefore, every sin affects not just the sinner but everyone they come in contact with.
since it doesn’t seem possible to have a discussion about sin without someone bringing up homosexuality… if two men or two women want to live as a married couple, on the surface it seems as if they are only involving themselves, and since it’s consensual that therefore there’s no problem, so for those that believe it is a sin it would be between them and their god and not involve anyone else. but let’s talk about the children! if a homosexual couple moves in next door, now the neighbor children are exposed to people flaunting their lifestyle as normal and acceptable. the court has already decided that states must perform their legal union ceremony and call it a marriage. schools read books about children with two daddies or two mommies, and tell students in health class that the behavior is completely normal. in this particular example, it is not just between the two adults involved.
people dislike others telling them they’re sinning because of hubris. and often, the people trying to correct others aren’t very tactful at doing so. doesn’t mean we should give up, though:shrug:
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Michael_Francis
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***Duplicate topic threads merged.
18 off topic posts removed.
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18 off topic posts removed.
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Kindly remain on topic. Do not debate other topics and do not discuss other members.
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St_Francis
Guest
When Christ said let he who is without sin cast the first stone, what was happening? The men were going to *throw the stones at the woman, eventually killing her. *IOW, they had condemned her to death: they had judged her and sentenced her.
They weren’t planning iut of the goodness of their hearts to “admonish” her, to tell her that what she had been doing was sinful; no, they were judging *her, *not her action.
Christ said that neither would He condemn her… neither would He sentence her to an immediate death. But He did admonish her when He said, “Go then, and *sin no more.” *
Not to pick on you, but you judged our action and then admonished us. You thought we were doing the wrong thing and you reminded us of Christ’s words. As it turned out you misunderstood Christ’s words, but consider what you were telling us we had done wrong and what you were doing… Kind of ironic, no?
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St_Francis
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Seems to me that global climate change is not really the focus if Laudate Si. The Pope seems to be recalling Catholic social justice priniciples and reminding us that even in the CC discussions we must still care for the poor, like not making ourselves all green by polluting other parts of the world.
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JimmyG88
Guest
If the Pope had reintroduced the Tridentine Mass and the Inquisition posters in this forum would love him. As it is he appears more ‘liberal’ and comes from a Latin American tradition which posters in general do not seem to like. I wouldn’t use this forum to take a straw poll about this Pope
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Church_Militant
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Getting back on topic here…
Pope Francis is not seeking the approval of men, which is precisely as it should be.
The whole point here is that just as the world hates the Catholic Church, so also it begins to despise our pontiff when he says something that they really don’t want to hear.
I applaud Pope Francis for being brave enough to call the world to account for not being good stewards of our common home. The earth is not ours to use up, but to nurture and tend carefully and Pope Francis has rightfully called us to account for and reflect upon the way we have treated this world so far and called all of us and all nations to begin to make serious efforts to do so.
Look at what we have done to the oceans.
From the air.
What’s in it?
Want this to wash up on your favorite beach?
We have sinned as mankind and especially the more advanced nations. We may well be buried in our own waste…
Pope Francis is not seeking the approval of men, which is precisely as it should be.
The whole point here is that just as the world hates the Catholic Church, so also it begins to despise our pontiff when he says something that they really don’t want to hear.
I applaud Pope Francis for being brave enough to call the world to account for not being good stewards of our common home. The earth is not ours to use up, but to nurture and tend carefully and Pope Francis has rightfully called us to account for and reflect upon the way we have treated this world so far and called all of us and all nations to begin to make serious efforts to do so.
Look at what we have done to the oceans.
From the air.
What’s in it?
Want this to wash up on your favorite beach?
We have sinned as mankind and especially the more advanced nations. We may well be buried in our own waste…
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TimothyH
Guest
These words were written by St. John, Apostle and Archbishop in the Church of Asia Minor.
They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:4-5)
By “us” John meant the leaders of the Church. Children of the Church listen to the Pope. Those who are not of God don’t listen to the Pope. Listening means doing. If you hear the Pope’s words but don’t do them then you are not listening.
Why any Christian would care what a Gallup poll says about the approval rating of the Pope is completely incomprehensible to me. If you care what the Gallup poll says about the Pope then you are “of the world.” We already know what the world thinks of the Pope. 31 of them were martyred. They tried to kill St. Pope John Paul II but Our Lady protected him.
***Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. *(Matthew 24:9)
Jesus promised that the leaders of his Church would have poor approval ratings.
-Tim-
They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them. We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1 John 4:4-5)
By “us” John meant the leaders of the Church. Children of the Church listen to the Pope. Those who are not of God don’t listen to the Pope. Listening means doing. If you hear the Pope’s words but don’t do them then you are not listening.
Why any Christian would care what a Gallup poll says about the approval rating of the Pope is completely incomprehensible to me. If you care what the Gallup poll says about the Pope then you are “of the world.” We already know what the world thinks of the Pope. 31 of them were martyred. They tried to kill St. Pope John Paul II but Our Lady protected him.
***Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. *(Matthew 24:9)
Jesus promised that the leaders of his Church would have poor approval ratings.
-Tim-
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Used2beSherryG
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Jesus would not have done well in a gallup poll. glad to hear that Pope Francis is in good company. We follow our faith, we listen and learn from Pope francis. Remember that the world hated Jesus, and so they will hate the Pope and all the faithful. Pick up your cross and follow Jesus.
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Memaw
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When Jesus forgave someone, HE said, "Go and sin NO MORE. HE did NOT say, 'Well maybe you can’t help it because you feel like doing this or that. Or, ‘who am I to judge why you sin the way you do.’ He also gave very explicit descriptions of what happens to those that do not learn from HIM. We have every right to “judge” the actions of sin. Sin hurts everyone. Look at the condition of our own society today because of sin. Jesus also said to preach the Gospel to ALL nations. That means us too, we need to try to help our fellow man overcome sin. The media has twisted what the Holy Father has said. Don’t use that as an excuse for not helping your fellow man. Even he hears confessions and has to “judge” then. God Bless, Memaw
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JimmyG88
Guest
Jesus said what he said because he can judge. Can man be the judge. We may have opinions and we can pass on teachings but God is my judge because he is omniscient
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Church_Militant
Guest
I read and studied this many years ago and learned the difference between Judging (which we are not to do) and Discerning, (which we are called upon to do) I hope this helps. I found this Greek word study online.
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marymary1975
Guest
So if you have a teenage child and the teenage breaks into a neighbor’s house and steals something from the neighbor per your logic you should not add to his guilt by admonishing him and tell him that is wrong and unacceptable, and the way it should be handled is say nothing about and if the teenage asks to say yes I support you on everything even in stealing something? Sincerely there is a problem if you think that that is an act of mercy.
Agree completely
Matthew 18:15-17
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utah_rose
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What medieval attitudes toward women? Even in the fifties, women served as integral part of the parish, and now even more so. We’re ushers, lectors and EM ministers. There are a lot of girls as servers. Nuns have been teaching in seminaries for quite some time, long before Pope Francis. And the family? Are you speaking of divorce and remarriage? Hope you’re not speaking about possible ordination of women, cause it ain’t gonna happen.
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Contarini
Guest
If you look at the OP, you will find the claim (which I’ve heard several times recently) that Americans are “tired of being berated.” I.e., Pope Francis is a lecturing scold. Or, in other words, he admonishes sinners all the time.
It’s just that he doesn’t focus on the “right” sinners–the scapegoats whom all “righteous” people agree are fair targets.
He dares to criticize the “righteous”–the hard-working middle-class people who go to Mass and work two jobs and are pillars of church and society.
And that, of course, is out of line. That is unforgivable. Admonishment is supposed to be a boundary-policing exercise affirming that “we” are the good guys and “they” are the bad guys. It’s supposed to make the insiders, the faithful, feel good.
Pope Francis doesn’t do that.
I can think of another famous religious figure, 2000 years ago, who didn’t do that either. And his popularity kind of crashed too. . . .
Edwin
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Contarini
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“Medieval” isn’t a bad word for Catholics.
Maybe if you can’t state what you think is wrong with these attitudes without the sloppy employment of a historical period as a term of abuse, you need to rethink your position.
Edwin
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