Game of Thrones= Sin?!

[Kamaduck]

If it did have strong female characters, posters here would be complaining about how it’s a “radical feminist” work. Notice how few people really seemed concerned about your accusation of misogyny?

HF’s post did make me question whether I wanted to read ASoIaF, but I don’t feel like it anyway after this thread, so it’s a moot point.

I didn’t bring it up, because I don’t want to be labeled a “radical feminist”.

TBH I don’t really have an opinion on GoT, it just doesn’t sound like my cup of tea eve if it is amoral (and it doesn’t sound like it is). The only thing I’ve objected to is Ed’s absurd statement that exposed female breasts= porn, always. I think a lot of people had that reaction.

 

[StudentMI]

At least in shows like Game of Thrones, we don’t lose much when a character dies or the story moves in a bad direction. But what of our own? Are you going to tell me that real life is supposed always happy? That fiction should only reflect the positive side?..

So you tell me, how can fiction not be cynical these days? It’s simply reflecting a grim truth that people are getting tired of acknowledging.

I should have been clear what I meant by cynicism. I meant a skepticism regarding human goodness and innate human dignity, and a skepticism regarding good and evil. Certainly art must not always be happy, but there is a difference between art that is realistic, and sad, and art that is cynical.

Take, for example, the films of Robert Bresson. He was influenced by Jansenism, a terrible heresy, but nonetheless his films, while at times very bleak, show the possibility of grace in the midst of sorrow and tragedy. I don’t find his films cynical, though, even as he portrays cruelty and immorality. Or, look at the Inferno of Dante. It’s hard to find a subject more sad than the eternal loss of God (I would say it’s the saddest subject of all), yet Dante manages to point to something greater in the midst of such sorrow.

I just think there is a difference between the cruelty and darkness in media these days and what I would call the Christian response to tragedy and darkness, which should (I think) be one of realism with an ever-present reverence for God. The way television shows portray such things is with a very materialistic, atheistic mindset where good can become evil very easily and evil can be excused, and life is all that matters. It’s very relativistic. It reminds me of Bertolt Brecht’s (a communist playwright and poet) saying “First grub, then ethics.” That is, first material comfort and satisfaction, then we can worry about morality. That’s not reconcilable with Catholic teaching.

 

[Seminarian_X]

My point is, over the last 40 years, the volume control on immodest/lewd/perverse depictions on TV has gradually - very gradually - kept getting turned up. And all the while, there were those who said we were overreacting, we were prudes, and less polite things.

Wake up people. Next stop - more graphic depictions. Maybe not this year but in the next year or so based on clear evidence.

The answer? Stop allowing the poison into your eyes, into your mind and into your heart. There is nothing to be embraced here. Nothing. And I have seen several episodes.

Peace,
Ed

I agree.

People get mesmerized by moving images, whether television, movies or the Youtubes. It’s one of the most powerful brainwashing method ever invented and incredibly effective at desensitizing folks to smut.

 

[Kamaduck]

I should have been clear what I meant by cynicism. I meant a skepticism regarding human goodness and innate human dignity, and a skepticism regarding good and evil. Certainly art must not always be happy, but there is a difference between art that is realistic, and sad, and art that is cynical.

Take, for example, the films of Robert Bresson. He was influenced by Jansenism, a terrible heresy, but nonetheless his films, while at times very bleak, show the possibility of grace in the midst of sorrow and tragedy. I don’t find his films cynical, though, even as he portrays cruelty and immorality. Or, look at the Inferno of Dante. It’s hard to find a subject more sad than the eternal loss of God (I would say it’s the saddest subject of all), yet Dante manages to point to something greater in the midst of such sorrow.

I just think there is a difference between the cruelty and darkness in media these days and what I would call the Christian response to tragedy and darkness, which should (I think) be one of realism with an ever-present reverence for God. The way television shows portray such things is with a very materialistic, atheistic mindset where good can become evil very easily and evil can be excused, and life is all that matters. It’s very relativistic. It reminds me of Bertolt Brecht’s (a communist playwright and poet) saying “First grub, then ethics.” That is, first material comfort and satisfaction, then we can worry about morality. That’s not reconcilable with Catholic teaching.

This is pretty off-topic, but I’ve always always thought the best stories are those that acknowledge that bad things happen to good people, and that evil is always getting mixed with good in our present state- but then the characters refuse to stop fighting for what is good anyway. Those are the real triumphs.

As for GoT, I have no idea where it falls on that scale. It sounds pretty dark. I like darkness in stories, but only if the darkness is ultimately defeated (or at least kept in check) by good.

 

[edwest2]

bold: Such is the paradox of the entertainment business. They seem to confuse provocative and titillating with originality.

That is not correct. A review of the “entertainment business” shows that they have always had two choices: the virtuous and all things lacking virtue. They, not the public, chose to gradually turn their spotlight away from the virtuous and the wholesome and this is increasing in all media, not just TV.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Kamaduck]

That is not correct. A review of the “entertainment business” shows that they have always had two choices: the virtuous and all things lacking virtue. They, not the public, chose to gradually turn their spotlight away from the virtuous and the wholesome and this is increasing in all media, not just TV.

I think it’s been a joint effort.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I should have been clear what I meant by cynicism. I meant a skepticism regarding human goodness and innate human dignity, and a skepticism regarding good and evil.

Why shouldn’t be people be skeptical? I repeat: That skepticism, that cynicism, is not the fault of entertainment. It is but a reflection of real people who have lost trust in the reality around them as its lack of transparency causes them to doubt others and themselves. This is what causes people to question human dignity because real life just seems to have this obscure way of clouding both good and bad actions so that one seems so to be more ‘dignifying’ than the other.

You want to fix that confusion, don’t lambast shows like GoT. You’re just blasting the reflection, not that which it reflects. The shadowy politics of Westeros are but a diagram of real, human society.

I just think there is a difference between the cruelty and darkness in media these days and what I would call the Christian response to tragedy and darkness, which should (I think) be one of realism with an ever-present reverence for God. The way television shows portray such things is with a very materialistic, atheistic mindset where good can become evil very easily and evil can be excused, and life is all that matters. It’s very relativistic. It reminds me of Bertolt Brecht’s (a communist playwright and poet) saying “First grub, then ethics.” That is, first material comfort and satisfaction, then we can worry about morality. That’s not reconcilable with Catholic teaching.

Even it is not, your idea of realism doesn’t reconcile with what people call reality. It’s even an historical fact that a good thing like the Church’s name, has been used towards the evil ends of political tyrants, imperialist slavery, and even racism. You want to end moral relativism? You have to put an end to the very tragedies that cause people to doubt the stability of morality. Don’t just turn and ‘revere God’ as if it’s you’re only answer to everything. If you do not want people to believe life is all that matters, then you have to prove it. Leave it to the story writers to reflect the new reality which you shaped.

You don’t demand the end of shows like GoT when it is but an outline of how real life operates for a lot of people these days.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I myself have to sit through some shows that I like and I get less and less interested when I come upon an attack on innocence, purity of mind. The eyes.

Innocence? I hate to break it to you but today innocence is synonymous with naivety, disillusionment, and frankly, complete disconnect from reality. If you’re truly honest with yourself, even children don’t stay innocent. I didn’t learn about sex from TV but during my science class. Do you really think dark subject matters are avoidable or that we even do a service by making sure they are never mentioned for the sake of ‘preserving innocence’?

We’ve only dug ourselves into a deeper hole that way.

But most of them are vanity of vanities or even sinister, and few are equivalent to grand literary works or a requiem or piano concerto that raise the hearts and minds in respect to creation…

Statements like this make you no different from Hollywood. What you deem as grand is your opinion really. All you need is a brief read through critical theory, a marketing strategy, a nice flair for words, a fat bank account, and voila! You are now a well-known critic and your influence has the power to move people’s views on entertainment wherever you please.

That’s all there is to the world of people who claim this or that type of art is grand or ‘raises the hearts and minds.’ Inflated human opinion that’s been advertised well.

I believe the spirit of entertainment has gotten us to try to relax our sensibilities of what we ought to know does not conform to what is good, even if its quibbling over just visual and aesthetic details. Too much importance has been placed on t.v. shows and movies anyway.
They are not THAT important, yet, we give a lot of our time to them… are these things really worth defending??

One must be wary of confusing defense of entertainment and what is actually a defense of human reasoning.

Certain literary authors for instance, wrote novels that were explicitly intended to attack the faith of men, etc. or promote heresies (to this day). Some t.v. creators explicitly say their intention of creating a certain show, was to be an attack on Christ.

Yet all you do is sit idly by, condemning and condemning. Never really addressing. (No, saying because it attacks religion or violates the Faith does not make a valid counterargument and it never was.)

Also, Satan was head of the angelic choir… so just because something maybe pleasing to the eye or ear, or lulls one’s sense based on the passions or emotions doesn’t mean its good art or entertainment.

Art and entertainment ARE about the senses. Condemn the immorality being presented if you will but stop promoting the illusion of traditionalists who seem to have a beef with what they call ‘passions.’

I’ve seen religious people say and do worse when filled with the ‘passions’ of their faith.

 

[Kevin12]

I can speak from my personal experience that indulging in dark media has an effect. It influences you after a while, it makes you cynical, depressed, etc. I’d rather watch/read/listen to media that is reverential, or at least respectful of the dignity of human life.

I really am skeptical of many TV shows nowadays, and movies. Look at television. The Walking Dead, Breaking Bad and I’m sure others (I don’t watch a lot of tv) all reduce to the same cynical cliche: people, when in a tough situation, will do anything – no matter how violent, immoral and sick – to survive. Very original.

What would you say about the work of Flannery O’Connor? Because it seems to me that you are assuming dark themes = cynicism/amorality.

 

[StudentMI]

What would you say about the work of Flannery O’Connor? Because it seems to me that you are assuming dark themes = cynicism/amorality.

No, not at all, but I see it could be taken that way. I’ve look forward to reading Flannery O’Connor, especially since I began my conversion process. Some of my favorite movies with Catholic themes are quite dark. Look at the films of Robert Bresson that I mentioned earlier. His films are full of depravity and sin but have a sense of grace, even his darkest ones: Au hasard Balthazar, Mouchette and L’argent. The first of those became a joke among my mother and I because it was so depressing, though I now find it to be a contender for the greatest film ever made.

It’s difficult to be precise about what I mean. IT’s just that violent media has become so pervasive nowadays, specifically media that takes pleasure in depicting violence and immorality that I find it distressing. I also just find that cliched theme that I mentioned boring.

 

[Kevin12]

No, not at all, but I see it could be taken that way. I’ve look forward to reading Flannery O’Connor, especially since I began my conversion process. Some of my favorite movies with Catholic themes are quite dark. Look at the films of Robert Bresson that I mentioned earlier. His films are full of depravity and sin but have a sense of grace, even his darkest ones: Au hasard Balthazar, Mouchette and L’argent. The first of those became a joke among my mother and I because it was so depressing, though I now find it to be a contender for the greatest film ever made.

It’s difficult to be precise about what I mean. IT’s just that violent media has become so pervasive nowadays, specifically media that takes pleasure in depicting violence and immorality that I find it distressing. I also just find that cliched theme that I mentioned boring.

I understand what you are saying, but you might also consider the possibility that nihilism and cynicism isn’t necessarily behind every secular portrayal of immoral behavior, particularly violence. In many cases, violence is portrayed in art, not to desensitize us to it, but to remind us of its existence in our midst, in our inner cities and particularly among the poor, so that we will not be able to be complacent about injustice. Of course, cynical portrayals of violence do exist and we should be wary of them. But we should not assume that every artist who portrays violence, but doesn’t have an explicitly Catholic message, is completely contemptuous of natural moral law.

 

[StudentMI]

I understand what you are saying, but you might also consider the possibility that nihilism and cynicism isn’t necessarily behind even secular portrayals of immoral behavior, particularly violence. In many cases, violence is portrayed in art, not to desensitize us to it, but to remind us of its existence in our midst, in our inner cities and particularly among the poor, so that we will not be able to be complacent about injustice. Of course, cynical portrayals of violence do exist and we should be wary of them. But we should not assume that every artist who portrays violence, but doesn’t have an explicitly Catholic message is completely contemptuous of natural moral law.

Oh I completely agree. I didn’t mean to imply that I had a problem with that kind of thing.

 

[rabbitdonkey]

Avoid it,

 

[Wesrock]

Thinking of the books, there’s a difference between portraying something and approving it. The “good guys” take a serious beating through the first three books, but that doesn’t translate into “therefore it’s better to be bad.” Tyrion’s lechery isn’t glorified, for example. It’s actually kind of pathetic, a symptom of an isolated and abused character that’s pushed him to dark places. The author isn’t portraying such things as good and upright. When bad characters do bad things, it’s generally portrayed as a bad thing.

The author himself is a lapsed Catholic, and I don’t claim his view of morality is perfect, even after accounting for the difference between the author’s aims and the characters. But for all the dark places the series sometimes goes, it’s meant to be seen as dark and unpleasant and bad. It’s not meant to be seen as glorious. It’s not meant to be seen as something normal.

The TV show is more gratuitous with sex. The books do have some, though it’s written very bluntly, often done with quickly, and is not written in an “erotica” style.

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

Though the author creates a fascinating intriguing world, with complicated and well fleshed out characters, the works appear to be a moral mess.

As others have said, there’s a big difference between portraying something and endorsing it. The Game of Thrones world does indeed seem like a complete moral mess. But I don’t think it follows from that that the author is saying it’s a good thing.

 

[punisherthunder]

I’ve read the books and watched the show.

If you are offended by explicit violence or some nudity, just keep to the books.

While it takes place in a fictional land, I cannot wholly overlook the fact of certain periods in our history where a lot worse has taken place. This is something of a reflection of that.