Game of Thrones....what do you all think?

[ToeInTheWater]

This was the excuse the writer of the mutineer scene used, stating we have to see how bad the mutineers are so we can cheer for Jon and his men when they come to kill them. But I did NOT think the scene focusing on the ringleader, Karl Tanner, while random women raped in the background was shot to make it feel “wrong and terrible”. Indeed, if you didn’t know the context, and didn’t hear Karl order his men “rape 'em till they’re dead”, it was essentially impossible to tell the women were actually being raped. One woman was shown completely naked with breasts bouncing, and I do think (though I can’t say 100% as I am not male) this scene was meant to be sexy. Rape being portrayed as sexy is very disturbing.

Also, I found it disturbing that the only woman victim to take revenge on Karl, is the one who is NOT shown being raped, only “slapped around” a bit, but merely implied to have been raped by Karl in the past. But this is also par for the course for this show; women can be shown either as passive victims, or quasi-men who disdain women and join the boys’ club, but not both. Note that the “tomboys”, Brienne, Asha, and Arya ALL are given such lines in the show, that portray them as looking down on women who don’t act the way they do.

That may apply to others but in my case, it is the show’s reliance on showing not sex, but rape and torture to lure viewers in. I hope you’d agree that rape is NOT about sex, and as I recall the Jaime-Cersei sept scene did not involve any nudity at all. Indeed, there have been fewer actual consensual sex scenes than there were earlier in the show (at least, S4 compared to S1). Unfortunately, the guy who produced that scene apparently had no idea that many viewers would see it as a rape.

I don’t know if you identify as “feminist” but many who do, and have no problem with showing nudity and sex, have condemned the show for its reliance on sexualized violence used for titillation. Can you agree there is a difference between consensual sex and sexualized violence? “Oooh people who don’t like GOT are hypocritical prudes” is a strawman.

And as I recall, even many show fans who had no particular problem with sex and violence thought many of the Theon torture scenes were gratuitous, and would rather have had the show cut some of these and use the time for something more interesting that actually advanced the STORY.

ETA: Also note that the show actually DE-sexualized Cersei and completely cut out Arianne, who DOES use her sexuality to help advance her goals. The show even cut out a completely canonical sex scene between Dany and Daario in S4. With the exception of Ellaria, and the whores (who are obviously playing a part), women have been consistently shown as sexually passive in the show, very different than the book series.

So personally, my issues with the show go way beyond an aversion to sex and nudity, and I am far from alone in this.

 

[tomarin]

I like how the Game of Thrones is the most violent show on television, averaging one explicit beheading a season and dozens of gory deaths–yet most people are more uncomfortable by the nudity and sex than anything else.

It’s a very American attitude.

I think it’s probably more the fact that the nudity and sex are so blatantly gratuitous that offends. And others have mentioned that there’s quite a bit of torture, depicted in gruesome detail so as to push the envelope of what an audience can bear.

I don’t have HBO so haven’t seen more than one episode but it does sound like shallow exploitation-style entertainment.

To me some casual nudity would be preferable if they would tone down the exploitation-style sex and violence. I don’t think the human form is inherently objectionable.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I think it’s probably more the fact that the nudity and sex are so blatantly gratuitous that offends. And others have mentioned that there’s quite a bit of torture, depicted in gruesome detail so as to push the envelope of what an audience can bear.

I don’t have HBO so haven’t seen more than one episode but it does sound like shallow exploitation-style entertainment.

To me some casual nudity would be preferable if they would tone down the exploitation-style sex and violence. I don’t think the human form is inherently objectionable.

I get the feeling many casual GOT fans would agree that “the show is about people being killed, raped, and tortured, having sex with whores, and cracking some witty one-liners along the way”. Which is really sad because the books, although addressing these issues themselves, are about WAY more than that.

Also, there is a big difference between alluding to events, and showing them. A sexual abuse victim makes a comment in one of the books, that suggests she was raped by a dog. But that is MUCH less exploitative than actually showing her being raped by the dog, in graphic detail. Now I HOPE the show doesn’t go that far but I wouldn’t be surprised if it did. Then I’m sure some of the fans will praise it for daring to go where no show has gone before.

 

[Alix1912]

My point above is that they could tell the same story and have it be equally as powerful and perhaps more so…with significantly toned down violence and nudity.

I also argue the scenes people remember the most are not those with naked people in them. They are the epic in scale battle scenes. The incredible character development scenes.

 

[Sarcelle]

I stopped watching the show after the last season. I have not seen any of the current season, but do know through news articles that it’s pretty much the worst one ever for various reasons.

The show started out okay despite a bunch of strange simulated sex scenes, with an interesting plot and characters, great visuals, and a quasi-medieval fantasy setting. I have always liked that kind of “period” show, So at first I just endured the sex scenes, as much of the overall story wasn’t about sex. (This is also my opinion of the book series that it is based on. Of course it is much easier to skip sex scenes when reading a book.)

Unfortunately, as the seasons have progressed, IMHO the show has essentially come to rely way too much on both sexual porn and “torture porn”. As well as scenes that combine both! I especially found it disturbing that season 4 contained depictions of rape that were either much more graphic than in the original;(again, a brief mention of women being raped in a book, is much different than actually seeing the rapes simulated), and also some scenes of rape or almost-rape that weren’t even in the book.

Notably, while there were rape scenes starting from the first season, most did not show the actual rape, but mercifully found a way to cut away right before.

I also found out from news stories on the current season, that the show completely changed the plotline of a major female character, essentially so they could put her into the plotline of a minor character who is raped and tortured by a sadist. (The same character is still a virgin in the books.) Many fans were outraged by this turn of events, and I count myself fortunate that I didn’t have to see that.

Also per news coverage, the show aged up a character who is only 8 in the books to some nebulous age that made him old enough to consummate his marriage this season. BUT he otherwise still acts like an 8 year old, which is very disturbing. (As opposed to prior cases of aging characters up to be “old enough” for sex, they actually were aged up to ACT their ages as well, indeed Robb and Jon actually looked, and act, much older than even their supposed ages on the show. Same for Dany.)

I also did not like how the show has really simplified the characters and erased many of the moral gray areas that are in the books. They have turned Tyrion Lannister into a wisecracking, cynical, but ultimately standard hero. For example, Tyrion commits cold-blooded murder in “Storm of Swords”, but the show turned the act into legitimate self-defense. On the other hand, Jaime Lannister, who in the books seems to be on a path to redemption, is essentially a villain in the TV show. The show had him commit acts of rape and murder that his book counterpart does not.

Same for Stannis Baratheon, they show portrays him as a villain and has erased many of the nuances to his character. Now this is all based on the show up to Season 4, but from what I’ve read about Season 5 there haven’t been much improvement on this, and apparently the “Sand Snake” plotline is very poorly acted,

Essentially, thumbs down, unfortunately. Maybe I was just fooling myself all along about the artistic merits of this show, but it’s become obvious at this point that they are going for shock value and sexual titillation over everything else.

I find the show to be very misogynistic. Rape everywhere. To me, rape, fictional or otherwise is not a source of entertainment.

 

[Sarcelle]

The dilemma is quite real. Anyone exposing themselves to certain words and images over a period of time either gets desensitized to them or starts to enjoy the ‘reality’ of them. For decades, both the porn industry, and TV programs and movies, have taken the same approach. Expose people to a little bad, then a little more, a little more and so on. That’s how it’s done. The evidence is there for anyone who wants to look back at TV from the 1950s and 1960s and movies from the late 1960s on. Or “art” magazines from the 1950s. It starts out with an artistic link which gradually disappears.

Graphic violence? “Soft” porn? The degradation of women? That is not entertainment. I remember seeing a magazine with a young, muscular man on the cover and the word rape was on his belt buckle, in a supermarket. Covers are very carefully planned to send a message.

Ed

I agree.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I find the show to be very misogynistic. Rape everywhere. To me, rape, fictional or otherwise is not a source of entertainment.

I totally agree. This is not to say rape should never be portrayed in popular media, but I think the show goes way too far in using it as entertainment.

Now, many have excused the portrayal of rape with “but it’s realistic” or “but they portray it as a bad thing”. To me, the S4 scene of NW mutineers casually raping women in the background, who are portrayed as merely writhing bodies, crossed the line and just made me wonder why I was watching the show. It was shot in a very similar way to prior scenes of characters like Bronn hanging out with naked hookers. I won’t say it’s “wrong” to watch the show and I’m not saying everyone who watches is turned on by rape, but I do think the producers (who have openly admitting to catering to the “pervy” demographic), are not exactly turning away that contingent.

However, I don’t know if “misogynistic” is the right word because they show men being sexually tortured as well. (Yes what “Ramsay’s girls” did to Theon in S3 was sexual torture, and “Ramsay’s boys” almost raped him in S3 before Ramsay himself killed them, either because they exceeded his orders or because he wanted Theon to feel indebted to him as part of his sick mind games.)

I’m not saying the show has NO redeeming qualities, I agree with Alix1912 that some of the character development scenes are great. The Stark kids are very fully realized characters, and I really liked the performances of Mark Addy and Sean Bean in S1 - of course, their characters both got killed off.

There are parts of the show I really liked. I actually thought they handled the Sam/Gilly romance in a very sweet way that paid justice to their characters, and did not erase the abuse they suffered from both their fathers; one of the more touching scenes is when they sing a children’s lullaby, then Gilly asks Sam “was your father as cruel as mine” and Sam says “not in the same way”. (Note Gilly’s father raped all of his daughters, and abandoned his sons to the “White Walkers”, while Sam’s father threatened to kill him if he didn’t give up his claim to be heir – and in the books we find out Sam’s father did even worse than that. But interestingly, the show never actually showed Gilly being raped by her father. They didn’t have to do that to show she is a victim, and her father a monster.)

I also wonder if the show-runners are focusing more on shock value now, because they had to kill off many of the core characters, and with them the actors who had much stage presence and charisma; Charles Dance is now gone, too. Of course, they had to do that to stay true to the books. But I do admit the last 2 books that the recent season is based on (A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons) were weak compared to the first 3, and really difficult to adapt to TV.

So, I’m not QUITE comfortable stating “the show is porn with no redeeming value, and no decent person should watch it”, but at this time I personally find the objectionable elements to have ruined my enjoyment of the rest of the show.

 

[Sarcelle]

I totally agree. This is not to say rape should never be portrayed in popular media, but I think the show goes way too far in using it as entertainment.

Now, many have excused the portrayal of rape with “but it’s realistic” or “but they portray it as a bad thing”. To me, the S4 scene of NW mutineers casually raping women in the background, who are portrayed as merely writhing bodies, crossed the line and just made me wonder why I was watching the show. It was shot in a very similar way to prior scenes of characters like Bronn hanging out with naked hookers. I won’t say it’s “wrong” to watch the show and I’m not saying everyone who watches is turned on by rape, but I do think the producers (who have openly admitting to catering to the “pervy” demographic), are not exactly turning away that contingent.

However, I don’t know if “misogynistic” is the right word because they show men being sexually tortured as well. (Yes what “Ramsay’s girls” did to Theon in S3 was sexual torture, and “Ramsay’s boys” almost raped him in S3 before Ramsay himself killed them, either because they exceeded his orders or because he wanted Theon to feel indebted to him as part of his sick mind games.)

I’m not saying the show has NO redeeming qualities, I agree with Alix1912 that some of the character development scenes are great. The Stark kids are very fully realized characters, and I really liked the performances of Mark Addy and Sean Bean in S1 - of course, their characters both got killed off.

There are parts of the show I really liked. I actually thought they handled the Sam/Gilly romance in a very sweet way that paid justice to their characters, and did not erase the abuse they suffered from both their fathers; one of the more touching scenes is when they sing a children’s lullaby, then Gilly asks Sam “was your father as cruel as mine” and Sam says “not in the same way”. (Note Gilly’s father raped all of his daughters, and abandoned his sons to the “White Walkers”, while Sam’s father threatened to kill him if he didn’t give up his claim to be heir – and in the books we find out Sam’s father did even worse than that. But interestingly, the show never actually showed Gilly being raped by her father. They didn’t have to do that to show she is a victim, and her father a monster.)

I also wonder if the show-runners are focusing more on shock value now, because they had to kill off many of the core characters, and with them the actors who had much stage presence and charisma; Charles Dance is now gone, too. Of course, they had to do that to stay true to the books. But I do admit the last 2 books that the recent season is based on (A Feast for Crows and A Dance With Dragons) were weak compared to the first 3, and really difficult to adapt to TV.

So, I’m not QUITE comfortable stating “the show is porn with no redeeming value, and no decent person should watch it”, but at this time I personally find the objectionable elements to have ruined my enjoyment of the rest of the show.

It seems that we see eye to eye on this.

 

[punisherthunder]

Anyone else ready for the season finale tonight???

 

[chin06]

I might be in the minority here… but I really like Game of Thrones. My family and I tend to skip over the sex scenes, although I sometimes ask my dad (who likes rewatching episodes) if we missed any big plot points during those scenes. But like someone above mentioned, we enjoy the action-packed scenes even those with violence (i.e. the battle scenes). I think it’s a well-made tv series with a movie quality and production.

However, i do agree that the writing has not really improved or made anything better and I think the show will suffer if the creators don’t do anything to respond to the negative criticisms concerning the violence and misuse of the women characters in the show.

I’m not a book reader, so I don’t really feel any different if something in the show was different or not in the books but I do think the show is set to go downhill unless the creators do something about their writing and characterizations.

I do feel very invested in the show but given GRRM’s penchant for killing off beloved characters, there’s only so much emotional turmoil I can put myself through so I may or may not be quitting Game of Thrones… especially after that season finale X_X

 

[Midwest88]

I like how the Game of Thrones is the most violent show on television, averaging one explicit beheading a season and dozens of gory deaths–yet most people are more uncomfortable by the nudity and sex than anything else.

It’s a very American attitude.

bold: Even if it was, you say it like it should change and be looked at with criticism.

Anyways, I’m not a fan. I tried to get into it but when, during a plane ride with my brother, I turned to him to say something I caught him watching an episode of GoT, and at the most oddest scene. It was a sex scene where doggstyle was the preferred position. I thought “Art. Expression. How pathetic.”

 

[GEddie]

bold: Even if it was, you say it like it should change and be looked at with criticism.

That’s because, particularly in other countries, it **is **seem as something that should change.

I don’t, FWIW, simply because people see violence and do not (unless already messed-up) want to engage in it, but the reverse is true of onscreen sexuality.

IMNAAHO

ICXC NIKA

 

[Midwest88]

That’s because, particularly in other countries, it **is **seem as something that should change.

Or that. I got irritated because it was said with insidious contempt. If what was put in bold makes people have bitterness in their mouth then their priorities aren’t straight.

I don’t, FWIW, simply because people see violence and do not (unless already messed-up) want to engage in it, but the reverse is true of onscreen sexuality.

IMNAAHO

ICXC NIKA

I do think violence is gratuitous nowadays when it comes to entertainment. The justification of nudity & sex scenes is quite shallow. “It’s natural” [we’re nude when we take a shower and when we have sex etc.] or “people have sex when they are attracted to people.” Unlike certain paintings, say The Birth of Venus, where there could be a strong case for the appreciation of the female form, and beauty in general, I bet that 99% of nudity in most indie/foreign films do no such thing in terms of appreciation. It makes the flesh trivial and common, which is ironic in itself. It makes the act of sex an activity like smoking a cigarette.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

I gave up on the show a good while ago. It might have been surprising at one point to have the “the main character can die at any moment twists and turns” that the show is known for but now it is kind of just ho-hum. Sansa’s plans against Ramsey backfiring horribly were as surprising as Wile E. Coyote’s plans against the Roadrunner backfiring horribly. It seems as if all the main characters are buying their plans for revenge from ACME. The only thing that is surprising is that nobody has been done in by an anvil. And the only overall theme in the show so far is death and sadness, which is really kind of just depressing to watch. I get it, life is short and brutish and people are savages who will do anything to survive and gain power.

 

[Darryl_Revok]

That’s because, particularly in other countries, it **is **seem as something that should change.

I don’t, FWIW, simply because people see violence and do not (unless already messed-up) want to engage in it, but the reverse is true of onscreen sexuality.

The bolded part is questionable. The Pentagon has provided support to dozens of action movies, and it’s not for artistic verisimillitude. In effect, the violence on screen serves as a suitable commercial for the military. After Top Gun, for instance, there was a huge spike in US Navy recruitment.

There is also the case of Birth of a Nation, where the depiction of a racist paramilitary organization on screen led to a revival of that racist paramilitary organization, at a larger scale than it was originally.

Then there’s the case for the classic French film The Battle of Algiers. Its depiction of an insurgency provided an inspiration for other such insurgencies. The Black Panthers and other American radical groups modeled their revolutionary cells on those depicted in the film.

 

[tomarin]

I gave up on the show a good while ago. It might have been surprising at one point to have the “the main character can die at any moment twists and turns” that the show is known for but now it is kind of just ho-hum. Sansa’s plans against Ramsey backfiring horribly were as surprising as Wile E. Coyote’s plans against the Roadrunner backfiring horribly. It seems as if all the main characters are buying their plans for revenge from ACME. The only thing that is surprising is that nobody has been done in by an anvil. And the only overall theme in the show so far is death and sadness, which is really kind of just depressing to watch. I get it, life is short and brutish and people are savages who will do anything to survive and gain power.

I feel the same way about much of contemporary movies and television. Ever since I had children I’ve had a hard time watching people suffering as entertainment (I know that’s putting it baldly but that’s pretty much what is boils down to as far as I experience it) as it’s just depressing and disturbing and to what end? There’s no deep insight about the human condition to be gotten really, except for what you wrote above.

I often wonder though whether I’m just being too sensitive or whether my sensitivity is justified or just a psychological biproduct of having children. In other words should I toughen myself up to be a person of my era and watch at least some of the entertainment on offer. I usually conclude though that today’s entertainment just has a much narrower range and it has less to offer than in past periods.

 

[CJsmommy]

I’m surprised no one has mentioned the show’s depiction of religion. That more than anything is what makes me uncomfortable with the show. R.R. Martin is a lapsed Catholic and has gone on record saying “the seven” has some basis in Christianity (seven faces of one god a clear parallel to the Trinity.) Then we have the red god, who’s priestess wants all heretics burned at the stake, and children of kings sacrificed. The only religion in the show that seems to be painted in a wholly positive light is the pagan “old gods”.

 

[Elizium23]

Here is a video with exclusive clips of upcoming GOT episodes!

 

[edwest2]

I feel the same way about much of contemporary movies and television. Ever since I had children I’ve had a hard time watching people suffering as entertainment (I know that’s putting it baldly but that’s pretty much what is boils down to as far as I experience it) as it’s just depressing and disturbing and to what end? There’s no deep insight about the human condition to be gotten really, except for what you wrote above.

I often wonder though whether I’m just being too sensitive or whether my sensitivity is justified or just a psychological biproduct of having children. In other words should I toughen myself up to be a person of my era and watch at least some of the entertainment on offer. I usually conclude though that today’s entertainment just has a much narrower range and it has less to offer than in past periods.

Simply make a list of what is being modeled to viewers as “entertainment” for this show:

Partial Nudity
Nudity
Simulated Sex
Graphic Violence
Rape

There’s nothing wrong with you. The current character template on TV is dysfunctional people - which is not fun to watch much less actually live through. Do I want to relate to these characters? I can’t. None of them. Who are the “good guys” anymore? Answer: There aren’t any.

Kids need heroes, hope, seeing justice done and no graphic sex or violence. Heroes aren’t heroic if the only difference between them and the villain(s) is less brutality and a lower body count.

Wake UP, my fellow Catholics. No matter the costumes and scenery, what are you really getting? It’s not entertainment. It’s immoral. Period.

Ed

 

[Sarcelle]

Simply make a list of what is being modeled to viewers as “entertainment” for this show:

Partial Nudity
Nudity
Simulated Sex
Graphic Violence
Rape

There’s nothing wrong with you. The current character template on TV is dysfunctional people - which is not fun to watch much less actually live through. Do I want to relate to these characters? I can’t. None of them. Who are the “good guys” anymore? Answer: There aren’t any.

Kids need heroes, hope, seeing justice done and no graphic sex or violence. Heroes aren’t heroic if the only difference between them and the villain(s) is less brutality and a lower body count.

Wake UP, my fellow Catholics. No matter the costumes and scenery, what are you really getting? It’s not entertainment. It’s immoral. Period.

Ed

Yes

There’s something very disordered about what passes for entertainment these days.