Game of Thrones

[Sarcelle]

I’m a long-time fantasy reader who reads every subgenre and a lot of epic fantasy. But I really can’t get the appeal of Game of Thrones, as a series of novels or a TV series.

The annoying thing is that a lot of people seem to take it as a legit presentation of medieval life in our world, and it’s certainly not. (Hint: if you kill off your peasants, you don’t eat. If you kill off other lords’ and kings’ peasants, nobody eats. Crops = food and wealth. So medieval lords and kings didn’t have to be nice guys to understand that killing off all the farmers was counterproductive. Scorched earth and sowing fields with salt, poisoning wells, etc. were only used when a king didn’t plan to take over that land and use it himself, ever, even in three hundred or a thousand years from now.)

Basically, Game of Thrones takes every medieval worst-case-scenario, mashes it together with fictionalized, worsened versions of historical crimes that happened several hundred years apart in totally different countries, and then pretends that it’s a valid narrative of events (instead of everybody dying or fleeing or revolting in response). If you wrote a fictionalized version of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 happening three days before the firebombing of Dresden in 1945, all in the same country at the same technology level, you would have a standard timeline of events for Game of Thrones.

I couldn’t get past the first book. Much like Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey, I do not see the appeal. That’s just me.

I’ll stick with Tolkein and C.S. Lewis.

 

[Sockio]

In my honest opinion, I do not have any major problems with the show. We all have to remember that the series is set in the Middle Ages, and we are all educated well enough to know how grim and horrific those times were.

Nudity plays a major part in most of the storylines, along with incest and plots to murder. The one thing GOT has not done is influence us to commit any of the sins that are portrayed on the show. If anything, it’s giving us clear warnings to stay away from it all.

I have personally read all the books (patiently waiting on The Winds of Winter, might I just add?) and am caught up with the series. I also watch it with my parents, who are both religious, both being raised in different religious households, and they have no problem with it.

At the end of the day, we need to remember that it’s just a television show. George R.R Martin isn’t commanding us to commit all of the sins; he’s just making a living of a story. And at the end of the day, that’s all it is; a story.

 

[edwest2]

In my honest opinion, I do not have any major problems with the show. We all have to remember that the series is set in the Middle Ages, and we are all educated well enough to know how grim and horrific those times were.

Nudity plays a major part in most of the storylines, along with incest and plots to murder. The one thing GOT has not done is influence us to commit any of the sins that are portrayed on the show. If anything, it’s giving us clear warnings to stay away from it all.

I have personally read all the books (patiently waiting on The Winds of Winter, might I just add?) and am caught up with the series. I also watch it with my parents, who are both religious, both being raised in different religious households, and they have no problem with it.

At the end of the day, we need to remember that it’s just a television show. George R.R Martin isn’t commanding us to commit all of the sins; he’s just making a living of a story. And at the end of the day, that’s all it is; a story.

I understand why you and others think that, but as a professional editor who’s had years of experience dealing with fictional stories, there is an influence. Actors and actresses that allow themselves to model wrong behavior and show their bodies partially or mostly nude desensitizes people. GoT is meant to show things people should not see. To make it seem common or neutral or OK. It’s not.

“But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!” Matthew 6:23 NIV

"Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2521, “Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.”

Ed

 

[Sockio]

I understand why you and others think that, but as a professional editor who’s had years of experience dealing with fictional stories, there is an influence. Actors and actresses that allow themselves to model wrong behavior and show their bodies partially or mostly nude desensitizes people. GoT is meant to show things people should not see. To make it seem common or neutral or OK. It’s not.

“But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!” Matthew 6:23 NIV

"Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2521, “Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.”

Ed

I fully respect your opinion, Ed

 

[edwest2]

I fully respect your opinion, Ed

Thank you.

Ed

 

[DaveBj]

I understand why you and others think that, but as a professional editor who’s had years of experience dealing with fictional stories, there is an influence. Actors and actresses that allow themselves to model wrong behavior and show their bodies partially or mostly nude desensitizes people. GoT is meant to show things people should not see. To make it seem common or neutral or OK. It’s not.

“But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!” Matthew 6:23 NIV

"Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2521, “Purity requires modesty, an integral part of temperance. Modesty protects the intimate center of the person. It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered to chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness. It guides how one looks at others and behaves toward them in conformity with the dignity of persons and their solidarity.”

Ed

Not to mention, “I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes. . .” (Ps. 103:3, KJV)

 

[JMartyr73340]

You either misread what the poster wrote, or you are absolutely not familiar with the show/books. The Faith of the Seven is clearly the GoT world’s version of the Catholic church (septons=priests, High Septon=Pope, Silent Sisters/Septas=Nuns), and in both the book and the show, one of the female characters ran very afoul of them.

I’m totally with you on this one. To me, it was very obvious that they were trying to present some stereotypical view of the Medieval Catholic Church. We see the “High Sparrow” running inquisitions, torturing people and imprisoning people. One of them is a homosexual (what a surprise… ). The propaganda is obvious.

 

[xNoOnex]

I’m totally with you on this one. To me, it was very obvious that they were trying to present some stereotypical view of the Medieval Catholic Church. We see the “High Sparrow” running inquisitions, torturing people and imprisoning people. One of them is a homosexual (what a surprise… ). The propaganda is obvious.

For what it’s worth, the church militant that is seen in both the later books and seasons of the television show (the one doing the torturing and imprisoning) is supposed to reflect the Protestant Reformation, not Catholicism. Martin, being a bit of a history buff, is likely well aware that while Protestantism often claimed that it was fighting corruption with in a Church that lost its way, it often had its own dirty laundry.

Heck, in England, “witches” really didn’t face any real persecution until King James.

 

[Sarcelle]

Partial nudity, simulated sex, prostitution. All these things portrayed as if they should be allowed into our minds as good, OK or neutral. I watched enough of it to realize that it is not good.

Ed

I read or tried to read the books. I came across the description of a rape and I couldn’t put the book down fast enough. Not enough brain bleach in the world to forget what I read. Ugh!
This is what passes for entertainment? Disgusting.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[edwest2]

I read or tried to read the books. I came across the description of a rape and I couldn’t put the book down fast enough. Not enough brain bleach in the world to forget what I read. Ugh!
This is what passes for entertainment? Disgusting.

But that is just my opinion.

I think there is no middle ground. Entertainment has been ‘pushing the boundaries of what people find acceptable’ for years. Which people? People who understand the truth. Rape, simulated sex, partial and full nudity should not fall under the heading of “entertainment.” It’s one thing to read about actual events, but it’s not right to use them to entertain.

I use the following analogy: What if a total stranger walks into your house, empties a bag of garbage on the floor and leaves? That is what it feels like whenever TV shows present such garbage. I don’t want to see to see a young actress straddle a man, remove her top and her bra - all seen from the back because the director and producers and writers planned all of it. They agreed to it. And I was not expecting it.

Ed

 

[xNoOnex]

I think there is no middle ground. Entertainment has been ‘pushing the boundaries of what people find acceptable’ for years. Which people? People who understand the truth. Rape, simulated sex, partial and full nudity should not fall under the heading of “entertainment.” It’s one thing to read about actual events, but it’s not right to use them to entertain.

I’m not sure that the artists always intend to make things “acceptable”, simply by having provocative content. I know that in my work, my villains do some pretty deplorable things and my protagonists aren’t always heroic, but my intent is to never glamorize. In fact, the protagonists often suffer because of their less than moral choices.

While I know that’s not the case for every creator, knowing a lot of amateur writers who don’t approve of the things that their characters do, I’m going to give folks the benefit of the doubt.

 

[edwest2]

I’m not sure that the artists always intend to make things “acceptable”, simply by having provocative content. I know that in my work, my villains do some pretty deplorable things and my protagonists aren’t always heroic, but my intent is to never glamorize. In fact, the protagonists often suffer because of their less than moral choices.

While I know that’s not the case for every creator, knowing a lot of amateur writers who don’t approve of the things that their characters do, I’m going to give folks the benefit of the doubt.

I’ve dealt with a number of amateur writers, and creators of fictional worlds in other formats. Game of Thrones falls into the “perverse sexual acts as entertainment” category.

As character creators, writers are in complete control and presentation is the key. It’s one thing to allude to something, and another thing for heroic characters to be less than perfect, but I work in the media and I’m seeing two clear trends among the ‘good guys’: Killing for revenge, and working with evil, murderous people because the end justifies the means.

Dark this and dark that. I’m getting sick of it. And some beginning writers are feeding off that mindset. It shows in some manuscripts I see. GoT crosses too many lines. Standards need to exist. I’ve noticed some people in general have adopted this “It’s all good.” worldview.

Feedback from readers of books produced by the company I work for shows people can be positively influenced. It ranges from just being family friendly to “Your books inspired me…” to do something positive.

Ed

 

[JMartyr73340]

For what it’s worth, the church militant that is seen in both the later books and seasons of the television show (the one doing the torturing and imprisoning) is supposed to reflect the Protestant Reformation, not Catholicism. Martin, being a bit of a history buff, is likely well aware that while Protestantism often claimed that it was fighting corruption with in a Church that lost its way, it often had its own dirty laundry.

Heck, in England, “witches” really didn’t face any real persecution until King James.

You’re partially correct. The original High Sparrow from Season 2 - the one who frequented Little Finger’s whore houses - was meant to represent the Catholic Popes. The latest High Sparrow, who is a virtuous man, even though he is a violent fanatic, was meant to represent the Protestant Reformers. Or at least that’s what I understood from this article:

ew.com/article/2015/05/24/game-thrones-george-rr-martin-religion

 

[JMartyr73340]

By the way, I was COMPLETELY drawn into this show. All my good Catholic friends were telling me not to watch it, but I didn’t listen. I made many excuses. I used the “art” argument several times. I also used the “well, if we cut out everything with sex and nudity we can’t watch anything” argument. I also used the “I fast forward the nudity and the sex” argument.

However, just this week, after going to confession with a very good priest, and doing some serious prayer, I decided not to watch this show anymore - even though I am dying to see how season 6 is going to end. I invite every Catholic, who is currently watching this show, to honestly discern whether or not it complies with their Catholic values. Be honest - would Jesus approve of a show that contains explicit sex, explicit nudity, homosexuality, violent rape scenes and obvious anti-Christian propaganda?

 

[xNoOnex]

I’ve dealt with a number of amateur writers, and creators of fictional worlds in other formats. Game of Thrones falls into the “perverse sexual acts as entertainment” category.

As character creators, writers are in complete control and presentation is the key. It’s one thing to allude to something, and another thing for heroic characters to be less than perfect, but I work in the media and I’m seeing two clear trends among the ‘good guys’: Killing for revenge, and working with evil, murderous people because the end justifies the means.

Dark this and dark that. I’m getting sick of it. And some beginning writers are feeding off that mindset. It shows in some manuscripts I see. GoT crosses too many lines. Standards need to exist. I’ve noticed some people in general have adopted this “It’s all good.” worldview.

Feedback from readers of books produced by the company I work for shows people can be positively influenced. It ranges from just being family friendly to “Your books inspired me…” to do something positive.

Ed

I can’t say that I’ve ever really thought the books as being about “perverse sexual acts as entertainment”, since the actual sex scenes in the books tend to either be fairly brief, and often written it ways that don’t really glamorize it, or so exposition heavy that I often forgot I was reading a sex scene. The show is a different animal, I’ll agree, but the books aren’t the show.

I’ll also argue that not all protagonists are supposed to be heroic. In my own work, at lot of the protagonists in the early parts of the story are anything but; they are largely people that do believe the ends justify the means and do some awful things which make things worse, until the real hero actually comes along and has to fix their mistakes. The first “act” more or less serves to deconstruct some of the shallow tropes of heroic fantasy, while the second rebuilds it into something with meaning, while deconstructing the shallow tropes in dark fantasy. But its all to show good can’t come from evil deeds, but the choice to turn away from evil.

You’re partially correct. The original High Sparrow from Season 2 - the one who frequented Little Finger’s whore houses - was meant to represent the Catholic Popes. The latest High Sparrow, who is a virtuous man, even though he is a violent fanatic, was meant to represent the Protestant Reformers. Or at least that’s what I understood from this article:

ew.com/article/2015/05/24/game-thrones-george-rr-martin-religion

Maybe. I’ll be honest, I haven’t followed the show since the second season, since it was too far removed from the books so I can’t speak how the they are being portrayed on the show. In the book, however, it’s hard for me to call them any more virtuous. Yes, they are less corrupt, but their fanatical zeal isn’t exactally portrayed as any better. It’s more trading one bad for another.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

I think there is no middle ground. Entertainment has been ‘pushing the boundaries of what people find acceptable’ for years. Which people? People who understand the truth. Rape, simulated sex, partial and full nudity should not fall under the heading of “entertainment.” It’s one thing to read about actual events, but it’s not right to use them to entertain.

I use the following analogy: What if a total stranger walks into your house, empties a bag of garbage on the floor and leaves? That is what it feels like whenever TV shows present such garbage. I don’t want to see to see a young actress straddle a man, remove her top and her bra - all seen from the back because the director and producers and writers planned all of it. They agreed to it. And I was not expecting it.

Ed

I have no clue why anyone would want to watch this trash. It’s pornography, plain and simple. I am sorry to hear one of my favorite Brit actors, Ian McShane of the 90s series Lovejoy is involved in this garbage.
No Christian, Catholic or otherwise, should pollute their brains or souls with this.

 

[Sarcelle]

I think there is no middle ground. Entertainment has been ‘pushing the boundaries of what people find acceptable’ for years. Which people? People who understand the truth. Rape, simulated sex, partial and full nudity should not fall under the heading of “entertainment.” It’s one thing to read about actual events, but it’s not right to use them to entertain.

I use the following analogy: What if a total stranger walks into your house, empties a bag of garbage on the floor and leaves? That is what it feels like whenever TV shows present such garbage. I don’t want to see to see a young actress straddle a man, remove her top and her bra - all seen from the back because the director and producers and writers planned all of it. They agreed to it. And I was not expecting it.

Ed

I agree.

 

[twf]

To their credit, I don’t think season 6 has had much sex at all. Major improvement over previous seasons.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

To their credit, I don’t think season 6 has had much sex at all. Major improvement over previous seasons.

I wouldn’t know, since I stopped watching after season 4. But I did hear a lot about very icky stuff in season 5. Not just the infamous marital rape of a major female character that’s not in the books (though to be fair, a less major female character is raped by the same man in the books), but also about the marital rape of a male character by a woman. The character is only 8 years old in the books. While he is married off to an older woman for political reasons, it is made very clear in the book that the marriage is NOT consummated. The wife doesn’t even kiss the boy, as one quote I recall is “she can’t give him kisses, so she gives him kittens”.

Now, the character was “aged up” in the show, but as far as I know no one actually committed to stating exactly how old he was supposed to be. Just “old enough” so that his having sex with a woman played by a 30 year old actress, was presented as something amusing, not something horrible. Even though they had an obvious grooming scene in Season 4 between the same characters; the woman sneaks into the boy’s room and flirts with him, though she doesn’t do anything sexual in that scene.

After hearing of that, I was really glad I’d jumped off that particular train in time, so I could save on my brain bleach supply.

 

[stanncie]

By the way, I was COMPLETELY drawn into this show. All my good Catholic friends were telling me not to watch it, but I didn’t listen. I made many excuses. I used the “art” argument several times. I also used the “well, if we cut out everything with sex and nudity we can’t watch anything” argument. I also used the “I fast forward the nudity and the sex” argument.

However, just this week, after going to confession with a very good priest, and doing some serious prayer, I decided not to watch this show anymore - even though I am dying to see how season 6 is going to end. I invite every Catholic, who is currently watching this show, to honestly discern whether or not it complies with their Catholic values. Be honest - would Jesus approve of a show that contains explicit sex, explicit nudity, homosexuality, violent rape scenes and obvious anti-Christian propaganda?

I know this must have been hard and I applaud you for this. It must be difficult to stop a show midway. It does speak of how much you value your relationship with God that you are willing to sacrifice this pleasure to follow Him.

My younger sister loves this show and every week she goes crazy about it so I know it can be addicting. It concerns me that she watches it but I won’t dare tell her not to because it’s not my place since she’s an adult. She knows fully well that I don’t approve of it though.

I tend to give the people the benefit of the doubt and if they tell me that watching shows like these doesn’t affect them spiritually I believe them. It does seem hard though given all the content. I myself have only watched about 15 minutes of it and I had to stop.
I can’t imagine any saints watching stuff like this and we all are called to be saints right?