Garabandal Status?

[Blue_Horizon]

continued…

Since you keep bugging me about the miracles this is from a book on Garabandal by F. SANCHEZ-VENTURA Y PASCUAL who certainly is not condemning the revelations.

The Miracle Prophesied
59.—The mystery of Garabandal will be cleared up the day of the miracle, the one which Conchita insistently announces and of which she knows many details.
We know that it will come about at 8:30 p.m. on a Thursday coinciding with an event of great importance for Christendom; we also know that it will fall on the feast-day of a saint who is indirectly connected with the Holy Eucharist; and that the miracle will be seen by everybody who comes to Garabandal or its surroundings on that day. What is more, we know that the Pope and Padre Pio will see it from wherever they happen to be; that the sick who are present will be cured, that sinners will be converted, that the miracle will last some fifteen minutes; that the Bishop will raise his prohibition beforehand, so that priests may be there; and

• One “duro” is five pesetas. A five-duro or twenty-five peseta coin is about the size of a quarter.

If you disagree with anything above please specify.

Okay so under your thought process Pope John Paul II and Padre Pio saw the miracle but conspired to keep it secret thereby not allowing the Church to confirm the apparitions as geunine.
As it was supposed to be a public miracle how many sick present were cured. How many priests reported seeing it?

And back online after 6 days away re this one as well…
Someone has already provided source documents for this old chestnut.

Therefore it is now clear that your belief that this Pope prophecy has “failed” is no more than your inference, based on another author’s inference, of more basic facts (that come out of Conchita’s diary and also reported interviews conducted with her in the 70’s).

What can I say…the lack of professionalism and objectivity in your presentation of this issue - and the blinkered interpretation of those more basic facts when unearthed by other contributors here … is breath-taking. I well understand why BeeHumble is no longer actively discussing with you.

So lets clarify a few things:
(1) Conchita never said JPII would see the Miracle. Even the book you quote never mentioned JPII. “The Apparitions of Garabandal”, p134 says: “What is more, we know that the Pope and Padre Pio will see it from wherever they happen to be…”
It seems the author himself was confused - thinking that the Pope living in his own time would see it.From other sources it appears far more likely that Conchita always meant that the future Pope at the time of the miracle would see it even if he was not present at Garabandal.
(2) You also appear to have conflated the above with something else Conchita blurted out in the presence of her own mother at the death of John23rd - namely “Only three more remain until the end of times.”

In an interview in the late 1970s she stated:
“When I learned that Pope John XXIII had died, I said, “Well, then there remain only three Popes.” This is what the Virgin had told me. Someone asked if that meant three Popes until the end of the world. I replied that the Virgin said no such thing. The Virgin told me simply that after Pope John XXIII only three Popes remained, before the end of time. Then I was asked, “Isn’t that the same thing, the end of time and the end of the world?” I said that I didn’t know. I’ve since been asked if that meant until the day of the great Miracle. … I only know that the Virgin said three Popes remain.” (“Miracle at Garabandal”, 1983. Harry Daley. p.32).

No mention of JPII.
Nor did she ever state the miracle would occur in the lifetime of the 3rd Pope after J23rd.
But what she did understand the Virigin to say was that “the end of times” (which is what she meant to say in her broken english even if she said “end of time” here … as is evidenced elsewhere) begins after the 3rd Pope (i.e. after JPII).
Presumably the beginning of the epoch of the “end of times” is signalled by the “Illumination of Conscience” followed by the Miracle (it has to be within 12 months or sooner).

Therefore it is perfectly conceivable that the Virgin meant the Miracle will occur in the lifetime of Pope Benedict. If it doesn’t then I would agree that this minor claim by Conchita becomes problematic for garabandal supporters.

BTW the story that the Virgin actually said 4 (“but one doesn’t count”) appears to be apochryphal. I believe it is quoted from Weber’s German book “Finger of God” which I have seen “quoted” on other matters which proved to be erroneous (or not even in that book).

BTW I had a chat with Loli’s sister (Amalia) on this point only 3 weeks ago. She was adamant Conchita said “three”. She would not elucidate or interpret any further and I was impressed she stuck to the facts even though she knows many, like Thistle, find it a point of contradiction.

 

[John_of_Woking]

OK curiosity is getting the better of me so I can’t help asking: If the first time wasn’t the charm, why did you go a second time?

God bless you.

I was invited and didn’t realise the obedience issue. God bless you also

 

[EIRCOMNET]

{Therefore it is perfectly conceivable that the Virgin meant the Miracle will occur in the lifetime of Pope Benedict. If it doesn’t then I would agree that this minor claim by Conchita becomes problematic for garabandal supporters.} quote

Thank you for your contribution which contains very good points , but I would disagree with the above mentioned assumption. There is no guarantee that Benedict is the pope who will see the Miracle. If we are discussing the end of our epoch all that is clear is that we have entered a new era which will probably be marked by an intensification of the persecution of the Church and will lead to the illumination of consciences ( the Warning). I personally feel that we may witness the martyrdom of the present pope as the climax of that persecution and such an event may be a prelude to the Warning. This statement IS MY OWN SPECULATION ONLY & HAS NO BASIS IN ANYTHING REPORTED AT GARABANDAL

 

[Blue_Horizon]

{Therefore it is perfectly conceivable that the Virgin meant the Miracle will occur in the lifetime of Pope Benedict. If it doesn’t then I would agree that this minor claim by Conchita becomes problematic for garabandal supporters.} quote

Thank you for your contribution which contains very good points , but I would disagree with the above mentioned assumption. There is no guarantee that Benedict is the pope who will see the Miracle. If we are discussing the end of our epoch all that is clear is that we have entered a new era which will probably be marked by an intensification of the persecution of the Church and will lead to the illumination of consciences ( the Warning). I personally feel that we may witness the martyrdom of the present pope as the climax of that persecution and such an event may be a prelude to the Warning. This statement IS MY OWN SPECULATION ONLY & HAS NO BASIS IN ANYTHING REPORTED AT GARABANDAL

Eircomnet that is a fair enough observation.
I was giving what I believe is the most likely scenario consistant with all the facts to date.
There may be other scenarios that are also consistant with the facts but which do not readily come to mind - such as you suggest.

BTW readers may be interested in this document. It attempts to set the record straight re this hoary chestnut of the third Pope prophecy (as well as the “its the end of the world” paranoia) even way back in 1979 (published in The Garabandal Magazine) when concern/confusion appears to have been at its height. The priest author was a highly respected Garabandal researcher of the time.

 

[Wa_Michael]

I really want to know the stand of the church about the issue.
“The stand of the Church!”
Someone to help?

 

[BobCatholic]

I really want to know the stand of the church about the issue.
“The stand of the Church!”
Someone to help?

The stand of the Church is that it is unapproved, after having been examined.

Go stick with an approved apparition. Fatima or Lourdes for example. There are still miracles going on at Lourdes for example.

 

[Edward_Henry]

Back online after 6 days away…

Thistle where did I say you were wrong - I do not think I said any such thing did I?
Surely you can do better than resorting to AAH above when you fail to convince someone .
In matters of differing interpretation, open-minded audiences will be pursuaded by arguments from outside authority … hence my request for you to provide references or sources that agree with you.
There is no need to feel that people think you are wrong just because they are not immediately convinced by your personal opinions/interpretations - esp when you cannot back them up with sources when asked.

Yes I can accept “non constat de supernaturalitate” as “unapproved” if by that you also include “not yet approved” and “not yet disproved” … as Adrift appears to accept.
However I do not believe you can… for to do so would suggest “the jury is still out” re a definitive, final judgement - which it appears you are unable to accept at the moment?

Why you cannot see this as a valid understanding of “non constat de supernaturalitate” I do not know. HansTrappist appears to hold this view… and the recurring investigations obviously suggest the previous ones are not definitive.

It appears somewhat crystal that the judgements of the later investigations not only mirror previous investigations but the very repitition of investigation also reveals the common status of all these investigations - namely PROVISIONAL - needing to be finally put to bed one way or another at a later time by means of either of the two remaining judgement categories. Other contributors have made a similar observation.

One does not have to be a rocket scientist to see that the authorities are in a holding pattern re Garabandal - a definitive judgement cannot be finally made until the predicted miracles come to pass or not. And of course it won’t be Garabandal supporters who will be relied upon to tell us whether they happened or not. I am sure the Vatican can work that out for themselves. I am sure they are immune to re-interpretting things to make the prophecy work if it “fails.”

As a final and definitive judgement has not yet been made either way I believe individual Catholics are free to personally practise a cautious devotion in the privacy of their own hearts and may disseminate information to others regarding the events at Garabandal and their own personal faith view on the matter… of course awaiting and abiding by the final and definitive judgement of the Church… when it eventually comes. Of course any public cultus may not be displayed or fostered at this stage. (Do correct me with sourced references if you think I am on the edge here.)

You may feel completely the opposite re such devotion - you also are perfectly entitled to reject Garabandal and offer your reasons and opinion that it is merely natural, psychological or even of the devil if you wish. You could acceptably say much of that of Fatima too I suppose because it appears no-one is forced to believe in private revelation even if approved by the Church.

Wow!.. what a fair position. Those 6 days of reflection definitely did wonders. I wish more members in this forum would take such a fair stance.

‘‘I believe individual Catholics are free to personally practise a cautious devotion in the privacy of their own hearts and may disseminate information to others regarding the events at Garabandal and their own personal faith view on the matter… of course awaiting and abiding by the final and definitive judgement of the Church…’’

You have our permission to take another six days off!

Thanks for your post!

 

[Edward_Henry]

I really want to know the stand of the church about the issue.
“The stand of the Church!”
Someone to help?

The stand of the Church is that it is unapproved, after having been examined.

Go stick with an approved apparition. Fatima or Lourdes for example. There are still miracles going on at Lourdes for example.

Hi Bob,
Respectfully: All that *Wa Michael *was asking for, was the stand of the Church. (Solicited information.)
The additional "Go stick with an approved apparition", was your added and somewhat patronizing (name removed by moderator)ut (Unsolicited opinion)

We would all get along better without this overzealous “policing” attitude that makes us seem more Catholic than the Church. People are asking for basic information to form their own conclusions, they do not come to be bullied into adopting others’ already made unyielding positions. Let’s agree to give them that opportunity, huh?

 

[brumano]

I have been watching this back and forth on this thread regarding the “three popes.” So, I decided to do some research. I can’t find a primary source for this “three popes” thing on the web. Maybe someone has a link? A good resource for primary source documents on Garabandal is stjosephpublications.com/

, but even on this excellent resource site I can’t find a primary source document.

But here is what I have found from a secondary source (garabandal.com/special-features/the-end-of-times) that purports to have access to Conchita’s diary, and says the following on this issue:

Many believers in the apparitions of Garabandal have been worried about the effect the death of Pope John Paul II has in relation to the predictions of Our Blessed Mother. To make the matter as clear as possible, we offer these quotes from Conchita’s own diary. The announcement about the last Pope and “the end of the times”

It was during the early part of June 1963, the bells of Garabandal started to ring. The following conversation then occurred between Conchita and her mother, Aniceta:
I think you have to have a healthy mistrust of anything you get online, whatever site represented itself as a secondary source could have been a third, fourth, or four thousandth source “purporting itself to have access to her diary”? Our enemy’s best and most logical weapon is false information presented as genuine, and that can easily be done in number of ways. Sometimes misinformation is spread by well intentioned people, and I’m sure we’ve all been mistaken inadvertantly in this way from time to time. This is why I strongly favor books over blogs, an author has to put their name to their work, and even though this does not in itself guarantee anything there is a far better means established for attempts at verification and most importantly clarification. And this is so for another excellent reason, because we can read the entire text, and ask whether any part really stands up, or blends in that well to the overall, and complete import of the book.

What may be happenning here is that a fabrication has been put forth in the first place, which sounds believeable but at the same time in another way dubious, but the believer “feels” they must take it on faith and they in turn interiorize and propagate these predictions as if the whole matter is dependedent on them being accurate. Then when they are seen to be mistaken, the whole matter is subjected to ridicule and labelled as a hoax.
The dillema however is this, there are genuine prophecies as from Fatima that are given, not really so much as predictions but more as prophetic warnings that do in fact occur, but the reason for these prophecies is not really so much that they will happen out, and everyone will be amazed and then go back to doing whatever they were previously as if nothing had happened at all. They are given for good reasons, they have purpose, they have meaning, and that of course could involve prophecy about the state and the destiny of the Catholic Church, but they are made for…faith reasons, not sensationalism or just for intrigue.

I think it could be that this prophecy or rumor as the case may be, about three more Popes, or the last Pope, may have it’s inception based on writings or interviews of Sr. Lucia that are referenced in Fr.DiMarchi’s book about Fatima. Without having to go any further, I believe she wrote this “prediction” more as her own personal conviction of what she thought would happen in her own estimation of World and Church events if the spoken message of Fatima was not heeded. This was not relayed to the world at any time as if it were part of Our Lady of Fatima’s message; such as the part that said, “The errors of Russia will spread”.
​

​

 

[beehumble]

I think it could be that this prophecy or rumor as the case may be, about three more Popes, or the last Pope, may have it’s inception based on writings or interviews of Sr. Lucia that are referenced in Fr.DiMarchi’s book about Fatima. Without having to go any further, I believe she wrote this “prediction” more as her own personal conviction of what she thought would happen in her own estimation of World and Church events if the spoken message of Fatima was not heeded. This was not relayed to the world at any time as if it were part of Our Lady of Fatima’s message; such as the part that said, “The errors of Russia will spread”.

Sr. Lucia said nor wrote anything about ‘three more popes’. (I have read most of the documents on Fatima.) And entire books on Garabandal, including Conchita’s diary are also online. The ‘three more popes and then it will be the end of times but not the end of the world’ is definitely a true statement from and associated with Garabandal (not Fatima). The statement is known to have been attributed to Our Lady by Conchita; the only question remaining is that of its interpretation - for even Conchita said she did not understand what it meant. (Most visionaries from various apparitions admit to being given messages, but not the interpretation of the messages, so it is not surprising that Conchita, like the rest of us, is left to wonder about its meaning.)

God bless you.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Wow!.. what a fair position. Those 6 days of reflection definitely did wonders. I wish more members in this forum would take such a fair stance.

You have our permission to take another six days off!

Thanks for your post!

Eh you must be psychic or something - yes I was at a Trappist monastery for those 6 days reflecting on Garabandal after recently returning from a stay there .

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I think you have to have a healthy mistrust of anything you get online, whatever site represented itself as a secondary source could have been a third, fourth, or four thousandth source “purporting itself to have access to her diary”?..

Brumano I believe your caution re source material is well advised.

In this case HansTrappist seems still on the ball. I possess many of the significant publications (the books but not the Garabandal Magazine Issues) … which are now available for download free at the site he sourced above. I have yet to obtain a complete copy of Conchita’s Spanish Diary but it does not really matter as a number of the above publications have printed all the significant sections with a commentary. (Though, as you say, it is always good to get the complete work as sometimes inconsequential areas can have a bearing). We also have to be careful re translation accuracy as well.

Finally, we do need to understand that even approved visionaries are still a human medium and may themselves unintentionally distort the messages given them - especially on lesser matters or if significant time passes between the experience and when they enunciate it/write it down for others or if they don’t actually understand what was communicated to them. They can also have memory lapses on less significant matters.

My research is clear and consistent that Conchita, on hearing of the death of John23rd, mentioned “three more Popes remain [until the end of times].” She stated the Virgin once told her exactly this. Conchita spoke these words in the presence of her mother and her aunt. This was one of the issues I went to Garabandal recently to question the Villagers on. It is accepted as common knowledge that Conchita said this. It is not denied, not embellished and not interpretted further. Make of it what you will.

In the household in which I was staying at Garabandal the well used “handbook” shown to visitors (only when visitors asked) was the large 257 page English 3 volume publication “She Went in Haste to the Mountain” which translates the Spanish equivalent. It is available in free pdf format here: She Went in Haste.
Pages 136-137 reports/discusses fully the incident where Conchita exclaimed at home that only “three more popes remain…” in the presence of her mother and aunt.

Personally I believe this “pope prophecy” is hardly at the centre of the Garabandal Message. If it failed it would appear to detract from Conchita’s personal credibility (or at least the accuracy of her recollectionse wrt “side issue” comments of her alleged apparition) - but that is all. I believe, as opined above, Garabandal will be judged to stand or fall on the major prophecies (The Illumination, the Miracle).

We perhaps need to keep in mind that these major prophecies are NOT the central the point of Garabandal. They appear to serve only as a “gateway” to the core message (if they prove true). They are merely signs to especially alert/attract sinners that something really significant may be going on here and we need to at least listen/understand and, hopefully, act on that core message now. It seems that if we act only when they (may) prove true … it will be too late to avoid the world consequences - though personal conversions may well take place on a grand scale at this time.

The major point of Garabandal, if it is true, is of course the two (opening and closing), formal, word for word messages of the Lady. In summary, we, the human race as a whole, need to turn our lives around for time is running out re the accumulated consequences of our actions in recent times. These consequences appear to be so great as to risk not only the social order but even the earth itself revolting against us. Heaven really cares for us in warning us so (and also by working these major future signs) that we, as a people, might have inspiration to change and love again. For Garabandal “newbies” the actual word for word messages are easily tracked down on the Net.

Personally I have never heard anyone else (including Sr Lucia) imply three more Popes until the “end of times”. Conchita was informed of the Malachi prophecy sometime after her own (she was not aware of it) which speaks of 5 more Popes (from John23rd) - though Malachi’s “termination point” may well be something completely different from Conchita’s “end of times.” Conchita had nothing to say except she repeated what she has always said - the Virgin told her three.

 

[Edward_Henry]

Eh you must be psychic or something - yes I was at a Trappist monastery for those 6 days reflecting on Garabandal after recently returning from a stay there .

I hope you took the time to visit the nearby monastery of Santo Toribio in Liébana, where the largest segment of the* True Cross ***is guarded and venerated. It is a wonderful place!

http://www.rutavadiniense.org/images/monasterio/iglesia_exterior.jpg

Monastery of Santo Toribio

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I hope you took the time to visit the nearby monastery of Santo Toribio in Liébana, where the largest segment of the* True Cross ***is guarded and venerated. It is a wonderful place!

Monastery of Santo Toribio

Lovely pic EH - you must have gone in summer?
This is off topic so I will try to be brief. Our visit here was actually the highlight of our trip as something small but special happened there that my wife and I will always remember.

My understanding is that the heavy silver (and gold?) cross (which encases large fragments of the (alleged) actual wood of Christ’s cross) is only presented to groups of visitors for veneration after a short ceremony at set times on set days.

I calculated the best time would be at 9am (opening time) on the day we travelled there from Potes. We were delayed and arrived at 9.25am. Nobody there except an old codger cleaning out a room by the road side of the building (right end off page of your pic). He was loading stuff into his beat up car and we went over to ask him where we go and what the score was here. But we couldn’t understand him as he spoke not a word of english. he was asking me a question but i had no clue what he wanted to know. While I was busy stupidly saying “habes anglais” my wife answered “yes we come to pray”. She told me he was asking if we were tourists or had come to pray. I do not know how she discerned this as she is Malaysian Chinese and english is a 2nd language for her.

He then led us to the Church door (front of your pic), into the interior which was almost pitch black, round to the far side and indicated for us to wait at the locked grille of a very ornate side altar. It was all happening too fast to understand what he was doing. By this stage I thought he was a caretaker. I felt we needed to kneel down which we did and suddenly he was back with a big key, opened the grille door and he went in and fussed around at the right side of the high/ornate altar. Suddenly we were called forward and before I knew what was happening the wood of the true cross was presented to me. My wife also kissed the wood at the feet of the containing cross. I was completely overcome by the “express service” that someone above had kindly planned for us. (When you do your own tours overseas you get used to waiting at museums, subways, hotel lobbies etc etc).

We both prayed outside the side chapel afterwards and it was quite an emotional experience for both of us. My wife is not even a Christian. The guy was one of the custodian monks if not the superior. He looked insulted when I thanked him for his extraordinary out of the way solicitation for us.

I know that the history of the wood of the true cross doesn’t exactly fill one with confidence that it really is so (Constantine’s wife? “found” it on Golgotha when visiting Jerusalem 300 years later). This site here is one of 6 such sites around the world and I believe it has the biggest fragment (allegedly where Jesus’s left hand was nailed). Does it matter? What matters I believe is the sincereity of the venerator - it certainly did us a lot of good to make this pilgrim effort for Jesus’s sake.

Did you go to the chapel to St Michael further up the road? I believe the mountain/valley view is one of the best in the whole region.

 

[Edward_Henry]

My understanding is that the heavy silver (and gold?) cross (which encases large fragments of the (alleged) actual wood of Christ’s cross) is only presented to groups of visitors for veneration after a short ceremony at set times on set days.

That is correct, but it seems like you had a heavenly tour director guiding your pilgrimage. And when He gets involved, unexpected things happen. Sounds like you had a very special pilgrimage. If you are ever in the region again, you may also want to visit:
The Miraculous Crucifix in the Shrine of Limpias ****



(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

It is a tremendous gift from God!

I will have to visit the St. Michael chapel next time! Thanks.

 

[NeedImprovement]

I was invited and didn’t realise the obedience issue. God bless you also

. . . Perhaps I missed it.But unless something has changed since The CDF’s letter to Most Reverend Denis Aubrey in 1998 , I was under the impression that private pilgrimages to Medjugorje were “permitted” and didn’t cause any *obedience issue *. I would further assert that Archbishop Bertone’s reply was precisely in response to Bishop Aubbry’s inquiry as to whether there was an obedience issue.

I think this thread has helped us all understand a little better why CAF has had to take a position on unapproved or yet-to-be-approved private revelations.

However, before anyone jumps the gun again and tries to pull out the tar and feathers ( peck peck peck . . . ) : Several times on this thread, an endeavor was made to point out the imporance of accuracy when reporting on these issues.

It would be commendable if we were not to discourage or deter anyone from making a private pilgrimage which would be considered perfectly permissible ( I’m presently referring solely to the place specified in the copy of Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone’s linked letter ) and which might further edify someone’s personal faith if they were to go .

Granted - we’ve no shortage of unapproved private revelations these days , and if one person went chasing after even only one of them inordinately, they’d risk getting wrapped around the axle.

We might consider the merit a moment : If someone, in good faith, believes in a private revelation which later turns out to be false (or even one which appeared to be approved and later wasn’t) , that person would still gain the merit they would have gained for believing if that particular private revelation had proven to be genuine. While this never implies that any of us should go around believing everything indiscriminately concerning private revelations, it does recognize the value of the act of a soul reaching out to God, or reaching out for God.

According to the biography written by Henri Paul Bergeron - *Brother Andre, The Wonder Man of Mount Royal *, Saint André Bessette (Brother André csc) founder of St. Joseph’s Oratory here in Montreal, would on occasion, remark of the many (*purported *if you prefer) miracles which took place during his apostolate with the pilgrims, “These miracles are good for people’s faith.”

 

[NeedImprovement]

Excerpt from Medjugorje , EWTN

. . . What the Church permits. As the already cited statements note, Catholics may go to Medjugorje. Such pilgrimages may even include priests acting as chaplains, as opposed to officially sponsoring them. Also, the Church has not suppressed discussion of Medjugorje, therefore, it is allowed. Common sense, however, says that Catholics on both sides of the Medjugorje issue should exercise prudence and charity in speaking of others who believe differently. Medjugorje is not a litmus test of orthodoxy, though every Catholic will have a moral obligation to accept the judgement of Rome, in the manner Pope Benedict explained, should it ever be rendered.

St. Augustine probably gave the simpliest and most helpful rule for all matters of the Church’s life when he said (in my paraphrase):

In necessary things unity,
in undecided things freedom,
and in all things charity.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I will have to visit the St. Michael chapel next time! Thanks.

Great pic of the cross - it brought back all the memories!

Here’s a panorama pic of the Chapel up the road. (Click to enlarge).

View attachment 15900

 

[brumano]

Brumano I believe your caution re source material is well advised.

In this case HansTrappist seems still on the ball. I possess many of the significant publications (the books but not the Garabandal Magazine Issues) … which are now available for download free at the site he sourced above. I have yet to obtain a complete copy of Conchita’s Spanish Diary but it does not really matter as a number of the above publications have printed all the significant sections with a commentary. (Though, as you say, it is always good to get the complete work as sometimes inconsequential areas can have a bearing). We also have to be careful re translation accuracy as well.

Finally, we do need to understand that even approved visionaries are still a human medium and may themselves unintentionally distort the messages given them - especially on lesser matters or if significant time passes between the experience and when they enunciate it/write it down for others or if they don’t actually understand what was communicated to them. They can also have memory lapses on less significant matters.

My research is clear and consistent that Conchita, on hearing of the death of John23rd, mentioned “three more Popes remain [until the end of times].” She stated the Virgin once told her exactly this. Conchita spoke these words in the presence of her mother and her aunt. This was one of the issues I went to Garabandal recently to question the Villagers on. It is accepted as common knowledge that Conchita said this. It is not denied, not embellished and not interpretted further. Make of it what you will.

In the household in which I was staying at Garabandal the well used “handbook” shown to visitors (only when visitors asked) was the large 257 page English 3 volume publication “She Went in Haste to the Mountain” which translates the Spanish equivalent. It is available in free pdf format here: She Went in Haste.
Pages 136-137 reports/discusses fully the incident where Conchita exclaimed at home that only “three more popes remain…” in the presence of her mother and aunt.

Personally I believe this “pope prophecy” is hardly at the centre of the Garabandal Message. If it failed it would appear to detract from Conchita’s personal credibility (or at least the accuracy of her recollectionse wrt “side issue” comments of her alleged apparition) - but that is all. I believe, as opined above, Garabandal will be judged to stand or fall on the major prophecies (The Illumination, the Miracle).

We perhaps need to keep in mind that these major prophecies are NOT the central the point of Garabandal. They appear to serve only as a “gateway” to the core message (if they prove true). They are merely signs to especially alert/attract sinners that something really significant may be going on here and we need to at least listen/understand and, hopefully, act on that core message now. It seems that if we act only when they (may) prove true … it will be too late to avoid the world consequences - though personal conversions may well take place on a grand scale at this time.

The major point of Garabandal, if it is true, is of course the two (opening and closing), formal, word for word messages of the Lady. In summary, we, the human race as a whole, need to turn our lives around for time is running out re the accumulated consequences of our actions in recent times. These consequences appear to be so great as to risk not only the social order but even the earth itself revolting against us. Heaven really cares for us in warning us so (and also by working these major future signs) that we, as a people, might have inspiration to change and love again. For Garabandal “newbies” the actual word for word messages are easily tracked down on the Net.

Personally I have never heard anyone else (including Sr Lucia) imply three more Popes until the “end of times”. Conchita was informed of the Malachi prophecy sometime after her own (she was not aware of it) which speaks of 5 more Popes (from John23rd) - though Malachi’s “termination point” may well be something completely different from Conchita’s “end of times.” Conchita had nothing to say except she repeated what she has always said - the Virgin told her three.

Very well, I don’t know enough about Garabandal other than having seen the docuementary, I think twice over many years so I think I posted at that point hoping to make a kind of a grain of salt type of a post, which I think has to be taken by both sides in any discussions about “pending” apparitions, as I’m bearing in mind the excellent point you make that the Pope prophecy is not at all the core message that we are to be concerned about. The trouble remains, not with me, but from those who would condemn the whole thing just by saying, uh, just do the math…there’s been more than three Popes after John XXIII, case closed. Now you may be able to understand from your knowledge of the whole thing good reasons as to why the case is not closed, but how do you get them to understand those reasons as you do?

 

[Clare2412]

Lovely pic EH - you must have gone in summer?
This is off topic so I will try to be brief. Our visit here was actually the highlight of our trip as something small but special happened there that my wife and I will always remember.

My understanding is that the heavy silver (and gold?) cross (which encases large fragments of the (alleged) actual wood of Christ’s cross) is only presented to groups of visitors for veneration after a short ceremony at set times on set days.

I calculated the best time would be at 9am (opening time) on the day we travelled there from Potes. We were delayed and arrived at 9.25am. Nobody there except an old codger cleaning out a room by the road side of the building (right end off page of your pic). He was loading stuff into his beat up car and we went over to ask him where we go and what the score was here. But we couldn’t understand him as he spoke not a word of english. he was asking me a question but i had no clue what he wanted to know. While I was busy stupidly saying “habes anglais” my wife answered “yes we come to pray”. She told me he was asking if we were tourists or had come to pray. I do not know how she discerned this as she is Malaysian Chinese and english is a 2nd language for her.

He then led us to the Church door (front of your pic), into the interior which was almost pitch black, round to the far side and indicated for us to wait at the locked grille of a very ornate side altar. It was all happening too fast to understand what he was doing. By this stage I thought he was a caretaker. I felt we needed to kneel down which we did and suddenly he was back with a big key, opened the grille door and he went in and fussed around at the right side of the high/ornate altar. Suddenly we were called forward and before I knew what was happening the wood of the true cross was presented to me. My wife also kissed the wood at the feet of the containing cross. I was completely overcome by the “express service” that someone above had kindly planned for us. (When you do your own tours overseas you get used to waiting at museums, subways, hotel lobbies etc etc).

We both prayed outside the side chapel afterwards and it was quite an emotional experience for both of us. My wife is not even a Christian. The guy was one of the custodian monks if not the superior. He looked insulted when I thanked him for his extraordinary out of the way solicitation for us.

I know that the history of the wood of the true cross doesn’t exactly fill one with confidence that it really is so (Constantine’s wife? “found” it on Golgotha when visiting Jerusalem 300 years later). This site here is one of 6 such sites around the world and I believe it has the biggest fragment (allegedly where Jesus’s left hand was nailed). Does it matter? What matters I believe is the sincereity of the venerator - it certainly did us a lot of good to make this pilgrim effort for Jesus’s sake.

Did you go to the chapel to St Michael further up the road? I believe the mountain/valley view is one of the best in the whole region.

It sounds like a deeply moving experience! Thank you for sharing it with us. Since you seemed to ask about this, the pious tradition of the relics of the True Cross is that they were brought back from Jerusalem by Constantine’s mother, St. Helena, not his wife. St. Helena brought back any number of other relics at the same time and was the prime moving force in having churches built on the sites of several holy places. If you are interested in learning more about her, here is a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia artucle from New Advent: newadvent.org/cathen/07202b.htm

Via con Dios!
Clare