Gates of Hell shall never prevail

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Fatima-Crusader

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Jesus promised that his Church would not be prevailed against by “the gates of Hades” (Matthew 16:18, NET Bible). Many have interpreted this verse to mean that the Church on earth would not die. But this is not what Jesus meant. People have not understood. These also do not realize the function of the gates of Hades. Their function was to keep in Hades those who died, and keep them dead, thus prevailing against all who entered thereby. They were not defensive gates. Most never follow through to this real meaning of the promise. It is only through death that the promise might be fulfilled, for in death is how one faces the gates of death. The Church was to die but Jesus promised that she would not be prevailed against . She would live again!

I had a mormon cite this to me, any help refuting this interptation?
 
We do way to much defense and refutation.

I would ask that person:
  1. Just where and how this was divinely revealed
  2. To whom it was divinely revealed
  3. When that teaching was changed
  4. How many times it has been changed.
 
Well here is the text in Latin from the Vulgate:
“et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam”

Which translated is:
“I tell you that you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it”

You really need to make some semantic acrobatics to come with your interlocutor interpretation.
Which brings another issue, is he a Biblical Scholar?
Versed in Aramaic, Greek, Latin and English so that he can back that affirmation?
I really doubt it. It is the consensus of 2000+ years of history and the presence this day of that Church that Jesus founded that it is HIS Church that will prevail against the “Gates of Hell”
Peace!
 
Fatima-Crusader said:
…

I had a mormon cite this to me, any help refuting this interptation?
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Haydock Commentary on Matthew 16: 18
— The gates of hell, &c. That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself or his agents. For as the Church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, i.e. the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or Church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the Church of Christ. Ch.
— The gates, in the Oriental style, signify the powers; thus, to this day, we designate the Ottoman or Turkish empire by the Ottoman port. The princes were wont to hold their courts at the gates of the city. V.
Click to expand...
 
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I think your friend should first understand the definition of the Church (especially its composition) and then rethink his definition of “the gates” and the dead (or living for that matter).

The Church consists of the Communion of Saints
  • The Church Triumphant (the dead, already having realized the Beatific Vision)
  • The Church Expectant (the dead, who’s souls are in purgatory, who will at the final judgement realize the Beatific Vision)
  • The Church Militant (the living followers of Christ, who hope to become members of at least the Church Expectant at their time of death, or the Church Triumphant should they be alive at the Second Coming.
Righteous souls are not behind gates, they are in the loving arms of God.
 
DIERM said:
I think your friend should first understand the definition of the Church (especially its composition) and then rethink his definition of “the gates” and the dead (or living for that matter).

The Church consists of the Communion of Saints
  • The Church Triumphant (the dead, already having realized the Beatific Vision)
  • The Church Expectant (the dead, who’s souls are in purgatory, who will at the final judgement realize the Beatific Vision)
  • The Church Militant (the living followers of Christ, who hope to become members of at least the Church Expectant at their time of death, or the Church Triumphant should they be alive at the Second Coming.
Righteous souls are not behind gates, they are in the loving arms of God.
Click to expand...
Yes…

Bottom Line
  • In spite of his never-ending attacks to obliterate THE CHURCH,
Satan shall never overcome The Body of Christ .
 
Does this Mormon have any credible sources actually backing up his extremely tortured interpretation of simple text? I’m not seeing any sources in your original post.

Without him having some credible sources, there’s nothing to “refute” here. We do not need to “refute” every far-fetched unsupported interpretation of Scripture out there. This sounds like some guy’s opinion to me.
 
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Fatima-Crusader said:
Their function was to keep in Hades those who died, and keep them dead, thus prevailing against all who entered thereby. They were not defensive gates. Most never follow through to this real meaning of the promise. It is only through death that the promise might be fulfilled
Click to expand...
He needs to read the Greek more carefully. The phrase “will not prevail against” is really one Greek verb. It essentially means “overpower”. His argument about the strength of the “gates of Hades” is reasonable: no one overpowers death. (Well, no one until Jesus!) But, what Jesus is saying here is that the Church will be more unable-to-be-overpowered than even the gates of hell.

At best, if he wants to make a personal interpretation (that is, an interpretation on the level of a person – “in death is how one faces the gates of death”), then he needs to quit mixing frames of reference. If he’s saying “the gates of hades cannot be overcome by a person”, then the proper interpretation would be “but the person who is a Christian prevails over death, because the Church overpowers the gates of Hades.” It’s not that the Church dies, it’s that now Christians will conquer death through Christ and His Church.

If they insist that it’s “church death” that is being talked about (and of course that’s the implication they want to bring to bear, since they want to say that the Catholic Church died and was brought back to life in the LDS!), then point them to Romans 7, where Paul points out that, once there’s death, there is no longer the “bond” that exists (such that, if a man dies, his wife can now marry another). So, if their bond to Christ through the Church “died” through the death of the Church, then they are free to marry another. But wait! Deuteronomy 24 asserts that a man is forbidden to remarry his former spouse! So, if they “lose” Christ through the “death” of His Church, then they cannot “remarry” him through the LDS! (Whoopsie! Guess they missed that part! 😉 )
 
Sometimes, instead of trying to refute their interpretation, it is better to show them how Catholics usually interpret that passage from Matthew: “the gates of hell would not prevail against it.”

There are two possible ways of interpreting it. But first, I agree with Gorgias when he said that “to prevail” means to overpower or to overcome.

First Interpretation: The Church is in the offensive, the gates of hell in the defensive. “The gates of hell would not prevail against it,” therefore means that the Church is in attack mode, and the forces of evil (the gates of hell) will not be able to overpower or resist successfully the prayers and sacrifices of the saints (the Church). In other words, the Church will be able to break the gates of hell and save souls from everlasting death. This does not mean that the Church will be able to save souls that are already in hell, but the Church has power to save sinners on earth, I mean, those who, because of their sins, are already captives of the devil.

Second Interpretation: The Church is in the defensive, the gates of hell in the offensive. “The gates of hell would not prevail against it” means the forces of evil will not overpower the Church, or will not succeed in destroying the Church by sin, heresy, etc.

Both interpretations are valid, although I personally like the first one more. In view of that, I disagree with the Mormon who said that it is only in death that Christ’s promise is fulfilled. It is being fulfilled now because the Church has the power and grace to save sinners from the everlasting fires of hell.
 
The gates of a city in the first century AD were defensive structures used to prevent unauthorized access particularly of an invading army. If the gates of a city did not prevail, then the city got invaded.
(Even when an invading army performed siege operations, they created a gap in the wall to allow a small force to enter the city and open the gates which is where the main army entered.)

Jesus was speaking metaphorically using an image all the people of the time could relate to.

The way I see it (and I do not understand how it will be) is that at some point, the Church, the Body of Christ, with Jesus as it’s head, will invade hell.
As I said I don’t understand but maybe I will at the time.
Just my 2¢.

Patrick
AMDG
 
I don’t think there’s any profound or special theological significance to the use of the phrase ‘gates of Hades’ (πύλαι ᾅδου). Most scholarship - by this, I mean reputable Catholic and non-Catholic scholars - treat it as a common rhetorical device.

It certainly was not coined by Matthew (or Jesus for that matter), as it was a very well-known and ancient periphrastic construction in Greek-speaking culture used to refer generally to Hades (that is, the gates of Hades is Hades). One can find πύλαι ἀίδαο (ᾅδου is ἀίδαο in Homeric Greek) throughout the Iliad and the Odyssey, both of which were composed more than a millennia prior to the NT.
 
CCC

The Church’s ultimate trial

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581
 
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