Of course I do.
It makes sense to have the music readily understood without having to go through mental gymnastics.
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It makes sense to have the music readily understood without having to go through mental gymnastics.
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Peeps
Guest
You may have to go through “mental gymnastics,” but I don’t!
I just have to think deeply with a different part of my brain other than the “logical” or “analytical” part. That’s not a burden or a trial–it’s a pleasure!
If you want music readily understood, then that eliminates Latin and any other language that we don’t speak, and it also eliminates many of our ancient hymns that use words or phrases that are no longer used in the U.S.
That’s exactly what Praise and Worship (P and W) is. A single simple phrase is repeated over and over again; e.g., “Open the eyes of my heart Lord, Open the eyes of my heart, I want to see You, I want to see You.”
On the other hand, a heart doesn’t have eyes, so someone has to be able to understand that the phrase is imagery, which means going through mental gymnastics, and so maybe that song should never be used at Mass.
So how about this?
Father I adore you, Lay my life before you, how I love you.
Jesus I adore you, Lay my life before you, how I love you.
Spirit, I adore you, Lay my life before you, how I love you.
Simple, easy to understand–oh, wait–“Lay my life before you.” What does that mean? We can’t bundle up our lives and lay them before Jesus. Imagery! Oh, well, trash that one.
So we’re back to “Hallelu, Hallelu, Hallelu, Halleluia, Praise Ye the Lord.” OK. I like that song. We used to sing it when I was in elementary school. No confounded imagery to make us think deeply.
vz71, I’m honestly confused by your aversion to "mental gymnastics. I personally prefer hymns that make me think and that take me to a “higher place” than my small life.
This weekend, I will be playing, “Crown Him With Many Crowns” in my parish for Mass, and that’s my idea of a really good hymn. The problem is, back in the day when hymns like Gather Us In were written, Christians decided that they no longer liked Crown Him With Many Crowns, and so they wrote new hymns. And for many parishes, hymns like Crown Him With Many Crowns pretty much disappeared. I’m very blessed that our music minister plans a variety of hymns, so that everyone can be touched by at least some of the music.
BTW, for people who feel that hymns written by Protestants don’t belong in the Mass–“Crown Him With Many Crowns” was written by a Catholic and a Protestant. Friends, when it comes to music, you may as well try picking up melted ice cream. There’s just no easy way to plan it.
Anyway, it can’t be about our personal preferences. Thankfully our Church has granted authority for parish Mass music to the bishops, and although I’m not naive enough to think that they personally review every hymn, I think that we have to assume that they are on top of it, and if someone does go to them with an objection, they will act, as they did when they banned singing the Name of God “Yahweh” in hymns several years back.
So if you have serious objections to Gather Us In, write to your bishop (after first speaking with your priest.)
I just have to think deeply with a different part of my brain other than the “logical” or “analytical” part. That’s not a burden or a trial–it’s a pleasure!
If you want music readily understood, then that eliminates Latin and any other language that we don’t speak, and it also eliminates many of our ancient hymns that use words or phrases that are no longer used in the U.S.
That’s exactly what Praise and Worship (P and W) is. A single simple phrase is repeated over and over again; e.g., “Open the eyes of my heart Lord, Open the eyes of my heart, I want to see You, I want to see You.”
On the other hand, a heart doesn’t have eyes, so someone has to be able to understand that the phrase is imagery, which means going through mental gymnastics, and so maybe that song should never be used at Mass.
So how about this?
Father I adore you, Lay my life before you, how I love you.
Jesus I adore you, Lay my life before you, how I love you.
Spirit, I adore you, Lay my life before you, how I love you.
Simple, easy to understand–oh, wait–“Lay my life before you.” What does that mean? We can’t bundle up our lives and lay them before Jesus. Imagery! Oh, well, trash that one.
So we’re back to “Hallelu, Hallelu, Hallelu, Halleluia, Praise Ye the Lord.” OK. I like that song. We used to sing it when I was in elementary school. No confounded imagery to make us think deeply.
vz71, I’m honestly confused by your aversion to "mental gymnastics. I personally prefer hymns that make me think and that take me to a “higher place” than my small life.
This weekend, I will be playing, “Crown Him With Many Crowns” in my parish for Mass, and that’s my idea of a really good hymn. The problem is, back in the day when hymns like Gather Us In were written, Christians decided that they no longer liked Crown Him With Many Crowns, and so they wrote new hymns. And for many parishes, hymns like Crown Him With Many Crowns pretty much disappeared. I’m very blessed that our music minister plans a variety of hymns, so that everyone can be touched by at least some of the music.
BTW, for people who feel that hymns written by Protestants don’t belong in the Mass–“Crown Him With Many Crowns” was written by a Catholic and a Protestant. Friends, when it comes to music, you may as well try picking up melted ice cream. There’s just no easy way to plan it.
Anyway, it can’t be about our personal preferences. Thankfully our Church has granted authority for parish Mass music to the bishops, and although I’m not naive enough to think that they personally review every hymn, I think that we have to assume that they are on top of it, and if someone does go to them with an objection, they will act, as they did when they banned singing the Name of God “Yahweh” in hymns several years back.
So if you have serious objections to Gather Us In, write to your bishop (after first speaking with your priest.)
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Gertabelle
Guest
It’s just a song, people.If you love it, great, enjoy the 2 minutes you get to hear it at mass.
If you hate it, offer up your 2 minutes of suffering and move on.
But perhaps we could all stop presenting arguments here as if anyone is going to change their minds one way or the other.
Personally, I hate the song. But who cares? I’m not at mass for the music, even when I’m the one playing the organ, singing, or choosing the hymns.
I don’t know, but maybe we could all just give it a rest and move on to other threads. Well, I am anyway. Enjoy this day and use it well. :+1:t4:
Then what is the point of the forum?
I can.
But it concerns me a great deal when we depend upon someone that may not have the best knowledge to unlock a song that on initial look does not support the faith.
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Gertabelle
Guest
Well I suppose for some people the point of these forums is to talk to themselves, as it were, as they write page after page of their well-reasoned and insightful opinions on every matter under the sun. And how many people actually change their own well-reasoned and insightful opinion on the matter because of what someone else writes?Gertabelle:
Then what is the point of the forum?
I can.
But it concerns me a great deal when we depend upon someone that may not have the best knowledge to unlock a song that on initial look does not support the faith.
Seriously, there are loads of other things to do on these forums – building community and building up each other’s faith comes to mind. Answering non-argumentative questions about the faith is another possibility.
But I guess if someone feels they can actually make a difference in the world by arguing over the value of some song, if that’s the best they can do to live out the gospel, then I guess they should carry on.
And honestly, let’s face it, I’m not going to change anyone’s mind by posting this, anymore than Peeps changed my opinion of “Gather Us In.”
I’m muting the thread now, because my opinion is that there are much better uses of my time and my ability to communicate through writing (like working on the first draft of that novel I’ve committed to finishing by Nov 30).
God bless each and every one of you!
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hcruz402
Guest
It’s not the best, but there are songs that are far worse than “Gather Us In.” A lot of the awful songs can be found in the OCP “hymnals.”
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PJH_74
Guest
It was the opening hymn at my wedding. So, yes, I love this song.
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Start
Guest
Pretty easy to translate.
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Peeps
Guest
And for those with any kind of imagination whatsoever, the imagery-laden songs are “easy to translate” and very deep and meaningful.
I have a really hard time “translating” songs that are not in my heart language (English). Yes, it bothers me, and I don’t personally like Latin or ANY foreign language used in a Mass or a Protestant worship service.
But just because I personally don’t like it, I don’t go around disparaging Latin and claiming that it isn’t appropriate for Mass. I recognize that many people DO love Latin and want it sung at Mass, and I am willing to make a sacrifice of my own desires for their sake.
I have a really hard time “translating” songs that are not in my heart language (English). Yes, it bothers me, and I don’t personally like Latin or ANY foreign language used in a Mass or a Protestant worship service.
But just because I personally don’t like it, I don’t go around disparaging Latin and claiming that it isn’t appropriate for Mass. I recognize that many people DO love Latin and want it sung at Mass, and I am willing to make a sacrifice of my own desires for their sake.
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So those that do not see what you claim to be there have no imagination whatsoever?
Are you sure you want to say that?
You have misunderstood the reason some of us believe the song inappropriate for Mass.
It has little to do with personal dislike.
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Peeps
Guest
A different imagination.
Perhaps because my husband and I were kicked out of our last Protestant church unjustly, during a tribunal meeting presided over by people who had never met us before, and who we didn’t know (and this same thing happened to others in that church)–and we spent a solid year not attending ANY church because our trust in humans had been utterly broken, and our faith in God was shaken–but not destroyed—
–And when we finally decided to obey the Bible and attend a church, and selected a Catholic Church near our home—
–The Processional Hymn that Sunday was “Gather Us In,” and I personally cried all the way through it and copied all the words down on a napkin. These words touched me deeply. Within a few weeks, we enrolled in the parish apologetics class, and spent two years studying preparatory to making a decision to become Catholic.
Obviously, the Holy Spirit was able to use this hymn to draw me to His Church.
You have not experienced what I and my husband experienced, so you cannot see what we see and hear what we see and hear in the hymn. I would be very, very upset if my parish decided to discontinue this hymn. I would eventually accept that the priest has the authority to do this, but it would add to my general distrust of human beings that I have struggled with ever since our “ousting” from that Protestant church. I will probably never trust any human fully again.
That’s what makes music very difficult to analyze. A song that leaves you cold warms me up, and vice versa. You see lyrics that are contrary to the Catholic faith, I see the Catholic faith all through the hymn.
This isn’t about “liking a hymn.” It’s about allowing hymns to continue to be sung and trusting that the Holy Spirit will use these hymns to touch someone in the congregation. At this point in history, the Church has NOT forbidden Gather Us In, and I doubt very much that they will do so in the future because I’m not the only one that has heard this hymn and had the course of my life changed.
Perhaps because my husband and I were kicked out of our last Protestant church unjustly, during a tribunal meeting presided over by people who had never met us before, and who we didn’t know (and this same thing happened to others in that church)–and we spent a solid year not attending ANY church because our trust in humans had been utterly broken, and our faith in God was shaken–but not destroyed—
–And when we finally decided to obey the Bible and attend a church, and selected a Catholic Church near our home—
–The Processional Hymn that Sunday was “Gather Us In,” and I personally cried all the way through it and copied all the words down on a napkin. These words touched me deeply. Within a few weeks, we enrolled in the parish apologetics class, and spent two years studying preparatory to making a decision to become Catholic.
Obviously, the Holy Spirit was able to use this hymn to draw me to His Church.
You have not experienced what I and my husband experienced, so you cannot see what we see and hear what we see and hear in the hymn. I would be very, very upset if my parish decided to discontinue this hymn. I would eventually accept that the priest has the authority to do this, but it would add to my general distrust of human beings that I have struggled with ever since our “ousting” from that Protestant church. I will probably never trust any human fully again.
That’s what makes music very difficult to analyze. A song that leaves you cold warms me up, and vice versa. You see lyrics that are contrary to the Catholic faith, I see the Catholic faith all through the hymn.
This isn’t about “liking a hymn.” It’s about allowing hymns to continue to be sung and trusting that the Holy Spirit will use these hymns to touch someone in the congregation. At this point in history, the Church has NOT forbidden Gather Us In, and I doubt very much that they will do so in the future because I’m not the only one that has heard this hymn and had the course of my life changed.
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LisaB
Guest
There is a big difference between liking or disliking a song and believing a song is inappropriate for Mass. I like many praise and worship songs played by a band with guitars, etc, and listen to them in the car. I still believe they are inappropriate for Mass.
On the other hand, I personally dislike some Mass-appropriate hymns because I don’t care for the melody, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be played at Mass.
Now, what criteria a song must meet to be considered Mass-appropriate is perhaps the real disagreement here and what’s driving many posters’ answers.
On the other hand, I personally dislike some Mass-appropriate hymns because I don’t care for the melody, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be played at Mass.
Now, what criteria a song must meet to be considered Mass-appropriate is perhaps the real disagreement here and what’s driving many posters’ answers.
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Peeps
Guest
There aren’t any “criteria” that laypeople can lay claim to. We do not have the authority to pronounce a hymn “Mass-inappropriate” or “Mass-appropriate.” At this time in history, the authority for allowing or disallowing Mass music rests with the territorial authority–the bishops.
And they have wisely, at least in my opinion, been very liberal when it comes to Mass music. I say “wisely” because music appeals to emotions as much, if not more, than intellect, and taking away someone’s “heart” is bound to create pain leading to a stink, which will lead to attrition from the Church and endangerment of the souls of those who depart (unless they head for another Catholic parish).
It’s just not worth starting a war over, as the Protestants did in the late 1960s over “Christian rock music” and “guitars” and “long hair on men.”
I love discussing church music, as I have played in church since I was a child. I don’t mind a lively discussion over the impact for the good or bad that hymns have on individuals. But I think it’s rather worthless to discuss which hymns are “inappropriate for Mass,” as laypeople have no authority to make that decision. Perhaps laypeople have the right to petition their priest and bishop with their concerns, but I think in most cases, it will be a fruitless endeavor, because for every lay person who complains about a hymn, there are people who will praise that same hymn.
And they have wisely, at least in my opinion, been very liberal when it comes to Mass music. I say “wisely” because music appeals to emotions as much, if not more, than intellect, and taking away someone’s “heart” is bound to create pain leading to a stink, which will lead to attrition from the Church and endangerment of the souls of those who depart (unless they head for another Catholic parish).
It’s just not worth starting a war over, as the Protestants did in the late 1960s over “Christian rock music” and “guitars” and “long hair on men.”
I love discussing church music, as I have played in church since I was a child. I don’t mind a lively discussion over the impact for the good or bad that hymns have on individuals. But I think it’s rather worthless to discuss which hymns are “inappropriate for Mass,” as laypeople have no authority to make that decision. Perhaps laypeople have the right to petition their priest and bishop with their concerns, but I think in most cases, it will be a fruitless endeavor, because for every lay person who complains about a hymn, there are people who will praise that same hymn.
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LisaB
Guest
Of course we don’t have authority to decide which music is appropriate for Mass, but as this is a public forum, people will naturally offer their opinions on the matter. Frankly, to me all praise and worship music sounds about the same - I like some songs more than others, but all of it merely appeals to my emotions and doesn’t sound like sacred music. However, like I said upthread, it’s not a hill worth dying on - people who like it are free to attend these Masses and those who don’t are free not to.
That said, while there is nothing wrong with songs and other bells and smells that appeal to people’s emotions, it’s important not to confuse good feelings with spiritual growth or the working of the Holy Spirit in one’s life. A song that tucks at one’s emotions is just that - nothing more, nothing less. I think sometimes people give it more weight than it’s worth.
That said, while there is nothing wrong with songs and other bells and smells that appeal to people’s emotions, it’s important not to confuse good feelings with spiritual growth or the working of the Holy Spirit in one’s life. A song that tucks at one’s emotions is just that - nothing more, nothing less. I think sometimes people give it more weight than it’s worth.
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Peeps
Guest
I agree that we shouldn’t confuse emotions with spiritual growth/Holy Spirit work.
But our emotions are part of who we are. Many people go through life “not feeling anything.” They are joyless, loveless, lonely, dark, empty.
Awakening those emotions and helping people to “FEEL” is a good thing.
The Holy Spirit can and does work during “dry” times when people feel nothing. But the Holy Spirit also works through emotions.
I converted to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism in 2004, and I love the Church and all of Her teachings and precepts.
But I miss “feelings.” The Mass for me appeals mainly to my intellect, my “logical brain,” because of its Truth. I know in my mind that the Catholic Church is The Church that Jesus Christ founded and still works through. But I don’t feel much. I hear about people who cry when they receive Holy Eucharist–I can’t imagine that.
Perhaps it’s because of what happened to us in our final Protestant church–it was just so painful and horrifying that I shut down all feelings when it comes to “church.”
I don’t even cry for funerals, including my dad’s funeral. I didn’t cry when my cat died earlier this summer.
The only time I have cried recently was because work was so exhausting last year and I keep getting less and less sleep, eating more and more junk, gaining weight, having more and more arthritic knee pain (can’t kneel anymore at all, even the “half-knee kneel”)–but there’s no use in crying because I can’t quit my job because we need the money.
One of the few exceptions was when I cried through “Gather Us In.” I know that I still have a heart because of that.
I’m guessing that there are a lot of Catholics like me, although maybe they haven’t been hurt by church, but they have been hurt by something in their lives, and they don’t feel a lot during Mass, and they sometimes wonder, “Is this all real or not?” If MUSIC can help them to get in touch with their feelings and FEEL the love of God rather than just recognizing with their brains that God loves them–then what is wrong with that?
Good feelings can lead to actions, such as beginning a Bible study, giving up a bad habit, dealing once and for all with a besetting sin, beginning annulment proceedings, attempting to patch things up with estranged friends or relatives, getting involved with a good charitable cause, writing a novel, finally going to the doctor, just enjoying life again. These are all good things for Christians.
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But our emotions are part of who we are. Many people go through life “not feeling anything.” They are joyless, loveless, lonely, dark, empty.
Awakening those emotions and helping people to “FEEL” is a good thing.
The Holy Spirit can and does work during “dry” times when people feel nothing. But the Holy Spirit also works through emotions.
I converted to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism in 2004, and I love the Church and all of Her teachings and precepts.
But I miss “feelings.” The Mass for me appeals mainly to my intellect, my “logical brain,” because of its Truth. I know in my mind that the Catholic Church is The Church that Jesus Christ founded and still works through. But I don’t feel much. I hear about people who cry when they receive Holy Eucharist–I can’t imagine that.
Perhaps it’s because of what happened to us in our final Protestant church–it was just so painful and horrifying that I shut down all feelings when it comes to “church.”
I don’t even cry for funerals, including my dad’s funeral. I didn’t cry when my cat died earlier this summer.
The only time I have cried recently was because work was so exhausting last year and I keep getting less and less sleep, eating more and more junk, gaining weight, having more and more arthritic knee pain (can’t kneel anymore at all, even the “half-knee kneel”)–but there’s no use in crying because I can’t quit my job because we need the money.
One of the few exceptions was when I cried through “Gather Us In.” I know that I still have a heart because of that.
I’m guessing that there are a lot of Catholics like me, although maybe they haven’t been hurt by church, but they have been hurt by something in their lives, and they don’t feel a lot during Mass, and they sometimes wonder, “Is this all real or not?” If MUSIC can help them to get in touch with their feelings and FEEL the love of God rather than just recognizing with their brains that God loves them–then what is wrong with that?
Good feelings can lead to actions, such as beginning a Bible study, giving up a bad habit, dealing once and for all with a besetting sin, beginning annulment proceedings, attempting to patch things up with estranged friends or relatives, getting involved with a good charitable cause, writing a novel, finally going to the doctor, just enjoying life again. These are all good things for Christians.
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Roseeurekacross
Guest
I do not like Sturt townsend’s Version of Lord Is My Shepherd, I decided , today. It seems low and dischordant
I would recommend Bishop Robert Barron’s series on the Mass.
The more you know, the better.
I understand the lack of emotional response in the Mass, but after a great deal of study, I could not go through the Mass without an emotional response.
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Loud-living-dogma
Guest
How to avoid emotional manipulation during worship? Use the music that the Church wants us to use…chant, Propers, etc.
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Loud-living-dogma
Guest
This is a great current discussion of the “4-hymn sandwich” issue, how to fix it, etc.
https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/16626/the-four-hymn-sandwich
https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/16626/the-four-hymn-sandwich
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