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Fauken
Guest
I love the article it references! Thank you for sharing this!
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Peeps
Guest
I think we have to be really, really careful about assuming that good music is being “performed” to induce an emotional reaction.
Please give church musicians more credit for integrity and love of God and His Church.
We spend a lot of money from childhood learning to play our instruments (including voice) with excellence, and we spend hours outside of Mass practicing a piece. We (at least I do) spend a lot of time on my precious days off working out out a correct and stirring registration for the organ for the hymns and prelude/postlude.
It hurts a lot…A LOT… to be accused of deliberately working people’s emotions. This is the kind of ignorant meanness that causes musicians to stop volunteering to sing/play.
A thorough reading of the article will show that the article does not dismiss emotions, and recognizes that many people will have emotional reactions to various situations, while some people will have no emotions at all.
One situation that will stir up my emotions is to hear a child or teenager play or sing in Mass. I think a lot of Christians have the same reaction. Does than mean that children or teenagers should never play or sing at Mass? Of course not! We need to hear MORE children and teenagers playing/singing at Mass–that’s how they get trained to do the ministry of music. People who wait until they’re grown-up often are too nervous to give it a try.
Please give church musicians more credit for integrity and love of God and His Church.
We spend a lot of money from childhood learning to play our instruments (including voice) with excellence, and we spend hours outside of Mass practicing a piece. We (at least I do) spend a lot of time on my precious days off working out out a correct and stirring registration for the organ for the hymns and prelude/postlude.
It hurts a lot…A LOT… to be accused of deliberately working people’s emotions. This is the kind of ignorant meanness that causes musicians to stop volunteering to sing/play.
A thorough reading of the article will show that the article does not dismiss emotions, and recognizes that many people will have emotional reactions to various situations, while some people will have no emotions at all.
One situation that will stir up my emotions is to hear a child or teenager play or sing in Mass. I think a lot of Christians have the same reaction. Does than mean that children or teenagers should never play or sing at Mass? Of course not! We need to hear MORE children and teenagers playing/singing at Mass–that’s how they get trained to do the ministry of music. People who wait until they’re grown-up often are too nervous to give it a try.
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lilypadrees
Guest
Our beloved (now deceased) priest used to say, “You get out of Mass what you bring to it.”
If you want “feelings” during Mass, bring those feelings with you to Mass. Don’t close them off just because of what happened to you in that last Protestant church or any of the other churches you attended. Lay those unresolved feelings at the feet of Jesus and enter your parish with a joyful heart. Allow yourself to feel emotion and it will come at the right time.
If you want “feelings” during Mass, bring those feelings with you to Mass. Don’t close them off just because of what happened to you in that last Protestant church or any of the other churches you attended. Lay those unresolved feelings at the feet of Jesus and enter your parish with a joyful heart. Allow yourself to feel emotion and it will come at the right time.
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Loud-living-dogma
Guest
Here’s a really nice essay about emotions and the Mass. I think he has says some helpful things here.
www.ncregister.com
How to Think About Emotions in Worship
When I was studying scriptwriting I came across a quote from a screenwriter that could well apply to worship. He said, “I want to move the audience so much th...
www.ncregister.com
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Joe_5859
Guest
Indeed. I’m not sure why in these discussions we tend to start making assumptions as to people’s intents and motives. We can disagree with someone’s musical tastes (even strongly so) without assuming they are out to take down the Church from the inside.
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pianomany2k
Guest
Thanks… Hadn’t thought of it like that before LOL
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ProudPapa1988
Guest
His Holiness Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI called the new Mass “banal”. So are you going to speak ill of him next?
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Peeps
Guest
Pope Benedict XVI prayed the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and I’ve seen televised Masses that he presided over where “contemporary” music was used.
His use of the word “banal” was not a constant theme with Pope Benedict. You are quoting him out of the context of his life.
He did not attempt to end the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and although he indicated a need for better music, he did NOT attempt to end the use of “contemporary” music or ban instruments other than the organ in the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
I am not speaking ill of anybody, although I think that laypeople who plant doubts in the minds of fellow Christians are committing grave evil. It’s possible for people to become so obsessed with the supposed inefficacy of their Mass (EF and OF) that they stop going, or that they abandon Catholicism and even Christianity. God help us all. The Bible speaks often of the need to build up the Church, not undermine it.
Those who hold the opinion, based on their personal study, that the Mass music is not worthy of the Mass should step up and work to change it, and the best way to do that is to become part of the music community in their parish, to pay and/or raise funds to bring in the people who can do the type of music that they feel is correct and appropriate for the Mass, and/or to get their children into music training that equips them to sing and play the forms of music that they feel are correct and appropriate for the Mass.
Also, anyone who is dissatisfied with their parish music should study and study some more before condemning it, and seek out the friendship and knowledge of their own parish priest(s) and if possible, their bishop. Any priest or bishop appreciates invitations to meals, and this would be a way to cultivate a friendship and learn from our clergy.
Finally, I would challenge those who are unhappy with Mass music to go to school and obtain the credentials to be able to teach music privately or in schools.
His use of the word “banal” was not a constant theme with Pope Benedict. You are quoting him out of the context of his life.
He did not attempt to end the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and although he indicated a need for better music, he did NOT attempt to end the use of “contemporary” music or ban instruments other than the organ in the Ordinary Form of the Mass.
I am not speaking ill of anybody, although I think that laypeople who plant doubts in the minds of fellow Christians are committing grave evil. It’s possible for people to become so obsessed with the supposed inefficacy of their Mass (EF and OF) that they stop going, or that they abandon Catholicism and even Christianity. God help us all. The Bible speaks often of the need to build up the Church, not undermine it.
Those who hold the opinion, based on their personal study, that the Mass music is not worthy of the Mass should step up and work to change it, and the best way to do that is to become part of the music community in their parish, to pay and/or raise funds to bring in the people who can do the type of music that they feel is correct and appropriate for the Mass, and/or to get their children into music training that equips them to sing and play the forms of music that they feel are correct and appropriate for the Mass.
Also, anyone who is dissatisfied with their parish music should study and study some more before condemning it, and seek out the friendship and knowledge of their own parish priest(s) and if possible, their bishop. Any priest or bishop appreciates invitations to meals, and this would be a way to cultivate a friendship and learn from our clergy.
Finally, I would challenge those who are unhappy with Mass music to go to school and obtain the credentials to be able to teach music privately or in schools.
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ProudPapa1988
Guest
Their religious vocations are booming, their seminaries bursting at the seams. How can this be? If the OF and EF and the faith they naturally create through their expressions are equal in every way, why is the difference in the life of the Church as different as night and day? Why is one full of growth and youth and life while the other seems to be drying up and dying out?
I don’t say this to upset anyone. I’m not “trying” to cause havoc on this forum. I’m not even trying to cause a debate. I just want to challenge everyone to seek better, to DEMAND better. First and foremost for Jesus Christ our Lord. But secondarily for our own souls and faith.
I don’t say this to upset anyone. I’m not “trying” to cause havoc on this forum. I’m not even trying to cause a debate. I just want to challenge everyone to seek better, to DEMAND better. First and foremost for Jesus Christ our Lord. But secondarily for our own souls and faith.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Please provide the quotation and source. Thank you.
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Peeps
Guest
ProudPapa1988, bless your heart for your zeal for Catholicism!
But…step back. Almost all of what you say is your personal opinion, or your personal surmising.
How can you say that the average OF Mass is not “fully Christocentric and worshipped faithfully to the best of human ability?” How can you possible see into the hearts of the priests and parishioners and KNOW that they are careless in their thoughts and not engaged with all their hearts in the worship of their Lord?
You ask how well everyone is catechized? How can you possibly know that their catechesis is poor? You haven’t been in OUR parish! You don’t know our parishioners! You don’t know me and my husband. You are judging people that you don’t know!
In any given parish or Protestant church, there is a continuum of worshippers with various levels of catechesis. I just read a shocking survey in Christianity Today (Evangelical Protestant magazine) that showed that a huge percentage of Evangelicals believe outright heresies (e.g., Jesus was a human with a divine spark).
The same is true of Catholic parishes. Some people are not at a stage in their lives where they can spend hours studying and learning. But that is not the fault of the Mass. The Mass was never a time of catechesis!
Kneeling and receiving COTH are NOT required in the U.S in most dioceses. And again, HOW can YOU judge the hearts of those who stand and receive in the hand? Only God can do this. Are you God?
And have you listened to all the homilies in all the OF parishes in the U.S.? How can you possibly surmise that the homilies are “stand up comedy routines?” This is insulting to good priests who work hard to prepare a pithy homily!
As for the rubrics–YOU apparently are not aware that the positions of the hands during the Our Father is not specified in the rubrics. How many other rubrics have you misinterpreted or gotten incorrect information about?
There is an EF parish in my city and I have played there. I personally do not find these Catholics any more catechized or pious than the people in the OF parishes where I play. Of course, that is my opinion, and only the Lord knows the souls of these brothers and sisters in the Lord. I cannot judge hearts, and NEITHER SHOULD YOU.
You need to re-group and stop going off like a firecracker. You’ve seen a few abuses, a few bad priests, a few carnal Catholics, and you are judging all the rest based on these few. This isn’t right and it isn’t good for your soul to be in constant conflict.
But…step back. Almost all of what you say is your personal opinion, or your personal surmising.
How can you say that the average OF Mass is not “fully Christocentric and worshipped faithfully to the best of human ability?” How can you possible see into the hearts of the priests and parishioners and KNOW that they are careless in their thoughts and not engaged with all their hearts in the worship of their Lord?
You ask how well everyone is catechized? How can you possibly know that their catechesis is poor? You haven’t been in OUR parish! You don’t know our parishioners! You don’t know me and my husband. You are judging people that you don’t know!
In any given parish or Protestant church, there is a continuum of worshippers with various levels of catechesis. I just read a shocking survey in Christianity Today (Evangelical Protestant magazine) that showed that a huge percentage of Evangelicals believe outright heresies (e.g., Jesus was a human with a divine spark).
The same is true of Catholic parishes. Some people are not at a stage in their lives where they can spend hours studying and learning. But that is not the fault of the Mass. The Mass was never a time of catechesis!
Kneeling and receiving COTH are NOT required in the U.S in most dioceses. And again, HOW can YOU judge the hearts of those who stand and receive in the hand? Only God can do this. Are you God?
And have you listened to all the homilies in all the OF parishes in the U.S.? How can you possibly surmise that the homilies are “stand up comedy routines?” This is insulting to good priests who work hard to prepare a pithy homily!
As for the rubrics–YOU apparently are not aware that the positions of the hands during the Our Father is not specified in the rubrics. How many other rubrics have you misinterpreted or gotten incorrect information about?
There is an EF parish in my city and I have played there. I personally do not find these Catholics any more catechized or pious than the people in the OF parishes where I play. Of course, that is my opinion, and only the Lord knows the souls of these brothers and sisters in the Lord. I cannot judge hearts, and NEITHER SHOULD YOU.
You need to re-group and stop going off like a firecracker. You’ve seen a few abuses, a few bad priests, a few carnal Catholics, and you are judging all the rest based on these few. This isn’t right and it isn’t good for your soul to be in constant conflict.
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Fauken
Guest
He likely is aware, and that’s part of his point. If I remember correctly, we’re not supposed to add anything to the Mass, even if the rubrics are silent about that particular thing. What is specified is that we are not supposed to copy the priest’s gestures, and the Orans position that it copies/imitates is a gesture reserved only for the priest.
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To my astonishment, I find myself in agreement.
I myself am a product of several OF only parishes. While many here may doubt the extent of my catechesis, I believe I am well schooled.
Perhaps I am the exception that proves the rule…?
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Peeps
Guest
The Orans position is a specific position, while just raising the hands is not the Orans position. So I question whether most people are “copying the priest.”
According to Wikipedia (and according to Peeps’ memory) Orans, a loanword from Medieval Latin ōrāns translated as one who is praying or pleading, also orant or orante, is a posture or bodily attitude of prayer, usually standing, with the elbows close to the sides of the body and with the hands outstretched sideways, palms up.
I just don’t see the real “orans position” in most of the laypeople during the Our Father.
When you think about it, we imitate the priest through out the Mass. I stand when he stands, and sit when he sits. I’m not being snarky, I’m just pointing out that “following the worship leader” is not something bad.
Please, can you post the link the place in the documents where it states that people are not supposed to copy the priest’s gestures? Thanks!
According to Wikipedia (and according to Peeps’ memory) Orans, a loanword from Medieval Latin ōrāns translated as one who is praying or pleading, also orant or orante, is a posture or bodily attitude of prayer, usually standing, with the elbows close to the sides of the body and with the hands outstretched sideways, palms up.
I just don’t see the real “orans position” in most of the laypeople during the Our Father.
When you think about it, we imitate the priest through out the Mass. I stand when he stands, and sit when he sits. I’m not being snarky, I’m just pointing out that “following the worship leader” is not something bad.
Please, can you post the link the place in the documents where it states that people are not supposed to copy the priest’s gestures? Thanks!
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Fauken
Guest
That’s not the point. Sitting, standing, and kneeling are gestures for all to use. The Orans position is specifically reserved for the celebrant. Just like it would be inappropriate for a lay person to go up to the altar and pretend to be the priest at Mass, say the words of consecration, and hold the bread up like the host, it is also inappropriate to use gestures that only the priest is to use.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...ocuments/rc_con_interdic_doc_15081997_en.html
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Peeps
Guest
Thanks for the link.
When we went through RCIA in 2004, we were taught not to raise our hands, and I believe the reasons in your link were cited.
I don’t raise my hands in Mass because of past associations, mostly unpleasant, with Pentecostal worship services back in my Protestant days.
I believe that the Lord would not condemn those who DO raise their hands because there’s a good chance that somewhere along the way, perhaps back when the Ordinary Form was becoming established, these people were taught by a priest or religious to raise their hands during the Our Father.
The hand-raisers are not disregarding the rubrics or defying authority, but rather they are obeying authority as they understand it.
The Lord says that “to obey is better than sacrifice.” I think the Lord will honor the intent of their hearts to obey Him and honor their Church authority.
However, it makes sense to me that priests and people in teaching positions (e.g., Catholic Answers) should make efforts to teach people that they are obeying incorrect teaching. They would have to do this with care and gentleness, because no one likes to be told that the dear priest or sister who taught them to raise their hands was wrong and that the rubrics say that hand-raising is a grave abuse! That would raise the hackles of many people who would be offended that their beloved teacher is being accused of teaching “wrong”, and they might get defensive and deny what their current priest or teacher is saying. That’s the way we humans are–we will defend the ones we love.
Catholic Answers has at least two articles published here on the website (use the search), and they make it clear that hand-raising during the Lord’s Prayer isn’t supposed to happen. However, one of the articles said that priests often choose not to make an issue out of this. They don’t want to single individuals out and make everyone feel uncomfortable.
I myself don’t think that the Mass is the best time for this kind of teaching, however, since so few adult Catholics attend any kind of Bible study or discussion group, it kind of makes sense that the Mass is the best time. My feeling is that the priests should consider working this into a homily once in a while, surrounded with lots of loving teaching and explanations. What SHOULD NOT be done is an admonition at the beginning of the Lord’s Prayer to “keep those hands at your sides or you’re guilty of grave abuse!” That would be awful, and it would also be an addition to the Mass, which is definitely against the rubrics!
Like I said, no skin off my back. I have too many negative memories of being judged in the Pentecostal church that my husband was raised in because I didn’t raise my hands (not in my church upbringing, so it felt uncomfortable).
One more thing–the Bible says that people everywhere should pray with holy hands uplifted. So outside of the Mass, there is nothing wrong with Catholics praying and praising God with uplifted hands.
When we went through RCIA in 2004, we were taught not to raise our hands, and I believe the reasons in your link were cited.
I don’t raise my hands in Mass because of past associations, mostly unpleasant, with Pentecostal worship services back in my Protestant days.
I believe that the Lord would not condemn those who DO raise their hands because there’s a good chance that somewhere along the way, perhaps back when the Ordinary Form was becoming established, these people were taught by a priest or religious to raise their hands during the Our Father.
The hand-raisers are not disregarding the rubrics or defying authority, but rather they are obeying authority as they understand it.
The Lord says that “to obey is better than sacrifice.” I think the Lord will honor the intent of their hearts to obey Him and honor their Church authority.
However, it makes sense to me that priests and people in teaching positions (e.g., Catholic Answers) should make efforts to teach people that they are obeying incorrect teaching. They would have to do this with care and gentleness, because no one likes to be told that the dear priest or sister who taught them to raise their hands was wrong and that the rubrics say that hand-raising is a grave abuse! That would raise the hackles of many people who would be offended that their beloved teacher is being accused of teaching “wrong”, and they might get defensive and deny what their current priest or teacher is saying. That’s the way we humans are–we will defend the ones we love.
Catholic Answers has at least two articles published here on the website (use the search), and they make it clear that hand-raising during the Lord’s Prayer isn’t supposed to happen. However, one of the articles said that priests often choose not to make an issue out of this. They don’t want to single individuals out and make everyone feel uncomfortable.
I myself don’t think that the Mass is the best time for this kind of teaching, however, since so few adult Catholics attend any kind of Bible study or discussion group, it kind of makes sense that the Mass is the best time. My feeling is that the priests should consider working this into a homily once in a while, surrounded with lots of loving teaching and explanations. What SHOULD NOT be done is an admonition at the beginning of the Lord’s Prayer to “keep those hands at your sides or you’re guilty of grave abuse!” That would be awful, and it would also be an addition to the Mass, which is definitely against the rubrics!
Like I said, no skin off my back. I have too many negative memories of being judged in the Pentecostal church that my husband was raised in because I didn’t raise my hands (not in my church upbringing, so it felt uncomfortable).
One more thing–the Bible says that people everywhere should pray with holy hands uplifted. So outside of the Mass, there is nothing wrong with Catholics praying and praising God with uplifted hands.
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J_Jean
Guest
Sacred music/melody ‘catchy’? hmmm…not sure that should be a priority. For a toothpaste jingle, yes, for Divine Liturgy? no.
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ProudPapa1988
Guest
Please don’t ban me for posting this mods I am only posting this link in response to a direct request for it by another poster. Ite ad Thomam Institute: Card. Ratzinger: The Novus Ordo Reform was "a Banal On-the-Spot Product"
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ProudPapa1988
Guest
The Mass was never a time of catechesis!
That statement is false. The Mass is the primary form of catechesis in the Catholic Church. Especially so in the Eastern Catholic Churches. For them, the Divine Liturgy IS their RCIA program. The Mass is where Christians learned about their faith from antiquity through the middle ages. When most people were unable to read and write, they learned about Christianity by attending Mass. Hearing the readings of Sacred Scriptures and homilies on how to apply it to their lives. That is how Christians were catechized!
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Peeps
Guest
ProudPapa1988, this is very different than what I’ve seen all my life.
The priests in my diocese, since 2004, have made it clear that the Mass is not meant to be a “teaching time.” It is the time that we receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. That may or may not involve teaching, but it certainly does not involve the kind of systematic teaching that equips Christians to be witnesses of their faith to at dying world.
We do not hear a dissection of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in our Masses, nor do we hear any type of apologetics taught. What we hear in the Mass is a homily related to the Scripture readings of the day. And we certainly never hear books of the Bible taught chapter by chapter each week in the Mass.
These are all teachings that Protestants get in their worship services, in Bible studies, children’s clubs and VBS, youth group meetings, and prayer meetings, as well as through their own private study of the Bible and other Christian books.
So generally speaking, when Catholics and Protestants talk about their faith, Protestants seem to know an awful lot more about the Bible, and this causes a lot of Catholics to wonder if they really are in the “right religion.”
Perhaps in the past, since there was no Protestantism, the teaching that you describe in the Mass was adequate for equipping Christians to stay close to God and live a life of holiness.
But nowadays…no. It’s not enough. Hearing a ten minute homily in the Mass once a week is simply not enough. When Protestant children have read the Bible through several times before they are teenagers, and memorize entire chapters of the Bible, and when Protestant teenagers do extensive apologetics studies in their youth groups, and when Protestant adults have attended a weekly Bible study for most of their lives and can give their personal testimony (which they have worked on in one of those Bible studies) at the drop of a hat–many Catholics will not be able to contend with this.
When asked what they actually believe, Catholics fumble around and hem and haw, and they don’t know which books are in the Bible and where to find those books, let alone specific Bible verses. Protestants will raise their eyebrows, and many Catholics will begin to doubt their Church and their own faith, and end up “accepting Jesus into their heart as their personal Savior” and getting re-baptized by immersion, and will in all likelihood start attending a Protestant church (and also in all likelihood will end up church-hopping as they seek a church where they can be “fed.”)
I would bet my Christmas candy that many CAF members know Catholics who have been down this road. It’s heartbreaking. Hopefully many have returned to the Catholic Church, but many don’t. In another post, I quoted a stat that in the Protestant churches I was involved in until 2004, around 25% of the members were former Catholics.
One of the reasons why Catholic extra-church organizations like Catholic Answers has developed is to help Catholics get better catechized. If the Mass is all that is needed, then CA and other organizations would not thrive.
The priests in my diocese, since 2004, have made it clear that the Mass is not meant to be a “teaching time.” It is the time that we receive Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. That may or may not involve teaching, but it certainly does not involve the kind of systematic teaching that equips Christians to be witnesses of their faith to at dying world.
We do not hear a dissection of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in our Masses, nor do we hear any type of apologetics taught. What we hear in the Mass is a homily related to the Scripture readings of the day. And we certainly never hear books of the Bible taught chapter by chapter each week in the Mass.
These are all teachings that Protestants get in their worship services, in Bible studies, children’s clubs and VBS, youth group meetings, and prayer meetings, as well as through their own private study of the Bible and other Christian books.
So generally speaking, when Catholics and Protestants talk about their faith, Protestants seem to know an awful lot more about the Bible, and this causes a lot of Catholics to wonder if they really are in the “right religion.”
Perhaps in the past, since there was no Protestantism, the teaching that you describe in the Mass was adequate for equipping Christians to stay close to God and live a life of holiness.
But nowadays…no. It’s not enough. Hearing a ten minute homily in the Mass once a week is simply not enough. When Protestant children have read the Bible through several times before they are teenagers, and memorize entire chapters of the Bible, and when Protestant teenagers do extensive apologetics studies in their youth groups, and when Protestant adults have attended a weekly Bible study for most of their lives and can give their personal testimony (which they have worked on in one of those Bible studies) at the drop of a hat–many Catholics will not be able to contend with this.
When asked what they actually believe, Catholics fumble around and hem and haw, and they don’t know which books are in the Bible and where to find those books, let alone specific Bible verses. Protestants will raise their eyebrows, and many Catholics will begin to doubt their Church and their own faith, and end up “accepting Jesus into their heart as their personal Savior” and getting re-baptized by immersion, and will in all likelihood start attending a Protestant church (and also in all likelihood will end up church-hopping as they seek a church where they can be “fed.”)
I would bet my Christmas candy that many CAF members know Catholics who have been down this road. It’s heartbreaking. Hopefully many have returned to the Catholic Church, but many don’t. In another post, I quoted a stat that in the Protestant churches I was involved in until 2004, around 25% of the members were former Catholics.
One of the reasons why Catholic extra-church organizations like Catholic Answers has developed is to help Catholics get better catechized. If the Mass is all that is needed, then CA and other organizations would not thrive.
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