Gathering around the altar for consecration

[Pfaffenhoffen]

You’re missing the point.

Please, would you mind to say where the point is?
When you say the Lord Jesus got offended, dont you think it is off the point and an abuse to reach for Jesus’ feelings to defend one own’s viewpoint ?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Please, would you mind to say where the point is?
When you say the Lord Jesus got offended, dont you think it is off the point and an abuse to reach for Jesus’ feelings to defend one own’s viewpoint ?

No one is using Jesus’ feelings to defend anyone’s own viewpoint. We are using simple facts, which indicate circumstances clearly contrary to the Roman Missal, to the GIRM, and to tradition in order to label the events in the original post as abuses. It seems like the only thing that constitutes liturgical abuse anymore is if the priest stomps all over the consecrated hosts or something. People perceive nothing is wrong anymore, that we can do whatever we want, and that is why we get into messes like this.

If it isn’t already crystal clear that the laity standing around the altar isn’t a liturgical abuse worthy of gawking at and reporting immediately, then I don’t know if I can explain it in any other way.

 

[triumphguy]

Who are you going to report it to? The liturgical poilice?

We live in a litigious society, and this is pervading our Church. It seems that because we can look at a rule book, or version of it, or more likely someone’s blog who has commented on the rule book, and we can quote that blogger and get all incensed then we have a “right” to complain to the bishop about abuses!

Well, I don’t know about you but I only have the time and energy to write a few letters a year, and when I do it’s about something that affects people - like abortion, or poverty, or corruption - not a faithful Catholic priest involving his parishioners in a daily liturgy that feeds their souls.

 

[SteveGC]

Would you mind to me more specific and not keep yourself into generalizations?
I saw abuses and I can describe some.
But some that others call abuses I do not call them so.
Can you describe yours?
Would you mind to specify which abuses the Pope talked about and when?
As for the OF and EF, it seems to be a big deal in the USA and I followed a whole thread about it and … I got asleep …

Which abuses were specifically reported is irrelevant to my statement. What is relevant is that the Holy Father is aware of them. His Motu Propio Summorum Pontificum permitting universal use of the traditional missal was born from this awareness.

Read here

 

[SteveGC]

Who are you going to report it to? The liturgical poilice?

We live in a litigious society, and this is pervading our Church. It seems that because we can look at a rule book, or version of it, or more likely someone’s blog who has commented on the rule book, and we can quote that blogger and get all incensed then we have a “right” to complain to the bishop about abuses!

Well, I don’t know about you but I only have the time and energy to write a few letters a year, and when I do it’s about something that affects people - like abortion, or poverty, or corruption - not a faithful Catholic priest involving his parishioners in a daily liturgy that feeds their souls.

lex orandi
lex credendi
lex vivendi

unpack this profound truth to see that these grievous sins you mentioned worth addressing at the exclusion of a concern over liturgical disobedience and misuse likely stem from beliefs that have been tainted by this very tainted environment of public prayer and worship.

Here’s a 6 year old article on the subject, but still very relevant today and beyond.

 

[dochawk]

There is a common misunderstanding on this issue. It isn’t the entire Mass that is valid or invalid. What is subject to these terms in the confection of the Most Holy Eucharist. In order for that to be valid the following requirements are to be met: 1) a validly ordained priest who has 2) the correct intent and uses the 3) proper matter (bread and wine) and says the 4) correct form which is the words of the institution.

After being surprised. by a one sentence Gospel at school I asked a Hoky Ghost Father at my parish. He told me that there are only four required pieces for the Mass to be valid, the Consecration, the priest’s reception, and I unfortunately don’t remember the other two.

This was a priest that would know–he stayed past his order getting kicked out of I forget whch African country. He spent an extended period covertly celebrating Mass in the brush while on the run.

Also, there are reports of a priest in th Gulag managing the Divine Liturgy in four minutes, with bread stashed from inadequate meals and wine made from a couple of pilfered grapes, using his palm for the Holy Table.

As for creeds, I believe some eastern churches use the Athanasian creed at times.

hawk

 

[opus101]

A number of posts have said that the priest must consume the Eucharist in order for the Mass to be valid. What happens if a priest finds himself in the state of mortal sin? Does he cancel Mass for that day? With the shortage of priests, it could be hard to find another priest to go to confession to. Or did I misunderstand something?

 

[YoungTradCath]

A number of posts have said that the priest must consume the Eucharist in order for the Mass to be valid. What happens if a priest finds himself in the state of mortal sin? Does he cancel Mass for that day? With the shortage of priests, it could be hard to find another priest to go to confession to. Or did I misunderstand something?

It is not required to be in a state of grace to celebrate mass, although it’s certainly better to be.

 

[opus101]

I must be missing something here - if the priest needs to consume the Eucharist, how can he do that if he is in a state of mortal sin?

 

[YoungTradCath]

I must be missing something here - if the priest needs to consume the Eucharist, how can he do that if he is in a state of mortal sin?

The necessity of him consuming the Eucharist as consecrated in that particular mass overrides that.

 

[Jayne_L]

I would also be shock, if I was present at this casual cermony. Have you done some reasearch to see if it was a catholic church! Cause you know if it was surely some one would have reported it to the Bishop

Praying for you

Unfortunately that is not necessarily the case. My parish has the ‘teens and young adults’ gather around the altar every life teen service - and our Pastor is a canon lawyer and definitely knows it is wrong. I don’t know if anyone has reported it, but nothing has changed.

What is interesting is that this lifeteen service is barely attended, whilst there is one across the city that has strict rules about maintaining reverence for which you must arrive early or you don’t get a seat.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

After being surprised. by a one sentence Gospel at school I asked a Hoky Ghost Father at my parish. He told me that there are only four required pieces for the Mass to be valid, the Consecration, the priest’s reception, and I unfortunately don’t remember the other two.

This was a priest that would know–he stayed past his order getting kicked out of I forget whch African country. He spent an extended period covertly celebrating Mass in the brush while on the run.

Also, there are reports of a priest in th Gulag managing the Divine Liturgy in four minutes, with bread stashed from inadequate meals and wine made from a couple of pilfered grapes, using his palm for the Holy Table.

As for creeds, I believe some eastern churches use the Athanasian creed at times.

hawk

The Mass as a liturgy can be neither valid nor invalid. That would amount to the same as saying Evening Prayer could be valid or invalid. When we use the terms ‘valid’ and ‘invalid’ it often, although not always, refers to the sacraments. With regards to the Holy Mass we talk about the validity of the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, i.e. the confection of the Holy Eucharist. First this requires one who can confect the Eucharist, namely a bishop or priest. Next the bishop or priest celebrating must have the intent to do as the Church does - to confect the Eucharist. This is valid if the proper matter is used. Each sacrament has proper matter. For the Eucharist this is wheat bread and wine fermented from grapes. Lastly, for its validity the Eucharistic minister (bishop or priest) must use the correct form, i.e. the words that have to be said. Every sacrament has a correct form (words). For the Eucharist the correct form is the words of the institution narrative. It is also correct that at Mass the celebrant (or concelebrants) must receive Holy Communion under both species: bread and wine.

 

[centurionguard]

I did not know that in the first Mass Jesus Christ was up there and the apostles a few kilometers down !!!

At least the most printed picture in the world, Leonardo da Vinci “The Last Supper” shows everyone around a table…

I think your misunderstanding the fact that the Apostles who gathered around the Altar table of the Last Supper with Jesus were essentially the first Priests in recorded Christian history after Jesus died on the Cross and later Ascended into Heaven.

Indeed; Jesus’s martyred apostles where Eucharistic priest beginning with Saint Peter our first Pope.
After Jesus ascended into Heaven the Apostles mission was to preach to the world and carry on what Jesus asked of them.

**This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you. **

 

[Luvtosew]

I’m just wondering why the OP hasn’t called the Church she went to and ask to speak with the Priest or even the secretary and find out more about what happened at the Mass.

 

[opus101]

I’m just wondering why the OP hasn’t called the Church she went to and ask to speak with the Priest or even the secretary and find out more about what happened at the Mass.

There is nothing to find out. The OP was there and witnessed it all. The priest surely knows better. The only thing to do is contact the Bishop.

 

[Ohana]

I see some real differences of opinion in this thread. Could those of you who see this participation in the Mass as totally illicit, wrong, an abuse, reportable, etc., please cite your reference for such an opinion. That might clarify the matter. It would also be good if anyone has documentation for the right of the celebrating priest to alter the circumstances under which the Mass is offered. I think that priests, particuilarly pastors, have quite a bit of latitude, but I may be wrong.

 

[Ohana]

God is certainly forgiving and compassionate, but we should not presume to take advantage of it. For sure, we don’t know for certain everything that is or is not offensive to Him, but regardless of whether he promises to rain fire and brimstone or not, we must try to keep the utmost respect for God, and the Church has set forth such instructions for us to follow so that we do not cause disrespect to God. It is for this reason that we must respect the sanctuary as God’s sacred space. As laity, the most we should ever do is stand outside the sanctuary, as our Eastern brothers do (without the aid of pews, might I add!), but never enter it.

This has its roots with the Jewish practice of respecting the Holy of Holies, where only High Priest could enter to see the Ark of the Covenant. Likewise, Jesus is the Ark of the New Covenant, housed in the tabernacle and comes down among us in the Holy Eucharist in mass, and only clergy and specific laypeople should enter this area, in recognition of this sanctified space.

I***************8

I would point out that we are neither Jewish or Eastern Catholic. I respect those traditions but fail to see how they can be directly translated into Roman Catholicism.

 

[opus101]

Here is some pertinent informationhttp://www.catholicsun.org/bishop/2011/121511.html:

 

[opus101]

It didn’t work, sorry. Hopefully this one will: catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1364

The Bishop refers to the practice as a “liturgical error”, and quotes documents.

 

[opus101]

Here’s another: catholicdoors.com/faq/qu440.htm