Gay activists outraged by Vatican cardinal's condemnation of homosexual acts

[Darryl1958]

My apologies to anyone I may have offended in this forum, with anything I may have said…most especially to Elizabeth.

I have decided to make a change in my life and to my personality. From now on, I have decided I will be cordial to people, but distant and extremely reserved in my interactions with them. I will not trust people, nor will I allow them to get too close to me. However, if at any point in the remainder of my life, the Lord should choose to allow someone special to come into my life and touch my heart, I will proceed cautiously and only permit myself to feel something for them in return in accordance with what God may allow. I have made this decision about my life because it is the only safe way in which I can proceed through life itself without being hurt as result of allowing myself to experience or express my emotions to other people. I have tried to “be myself” in life, and the only result is that I end up getting hurt. It is much safer to remain distant with people, and only express my true self and inner heart and emotions with the Lord.

God Bless you all, and please forgive me.

The twelve part series by Rabbi Forhman may seem to be off topic, but I think they may be useful. The 'evil inclination" generated by our desires is the meat, and Torah is but the spice that gives flavor and direction to that meat.
Likewise, my parish priest once noted that we ought to thank God for our sins. Hyperactive desire causes our passions to go awry, gives them a power that is almost impossible to control, but without passion there can be no love, without passion, life even becomes impossible.
Torah is the spice of life. It gives direction to our passions, shows us how to control them, to ride the beast, enables the beast to carry us to true happiness.

Paradoxically, the righteous man when viewing his struggles with sin from the afterlife see that his sin was like a great mountain that he climbed. The unrighteous man is dismayed to note that his desire was a mere molehill that caused him to stumble.
such is the way of desire. Unrequited, the objects of our desire take on monstrous size. Satiation or desire on the other hand demonstrates the petty worthlessness of the desire in the first place.

I recommend you follow the articles linked below:

jewishworldreview.com/0105/fohrman12.php3

 

[Elizabeth502]

without passion there can be no love, without passion, life even becomes impossible.
Torah is the spice of life. It gives direction to our passions, shows us how to control them, to ride the beast, enables the beast to carry us to true happiness.

Indeed.

St. Augustine was passionate in sin but that level of fervor enabled him to be even more passionate in his love for God, once converted.

I don’t think God wants lukewarm followers and those who safely restrain all passion whatsoever, as if apathy is a virtue.

That said, he only expects what we are truly capable of giving at any moment in time. If we give ourselves to him sincerely in prayer, he will use whatever gifts, and transform whatever frailties we have, to his glory.

 

[JReducation]

I like what is being said. I just want to add that the most interesting saints were also the most passionate men and women. If we examine the writings of Catherine of Siena and Teresa of Avila, they are very sensual. The union of the soul with the Divine is described in very sensual terms. It almost sounds like an orgasm multiplied .

Saints like Francis of Assisi, Augustine, Jerome, Paul, Peter, Mother Teresa and others were very passionate. Passion can be a very powerful resource when controlled. But controlled does not mean that we pretend that they are not present. When the saints speak about controlling the passions they are really speaking about redirecting them. That languge did not exist back then. Unfortunately, many people interpreted them to mean denial of ones passions. This is far from what they meant.

We adopted a stoic kind of spirituality that replaced spontaneity in the spiritual life. Real freedom is achieved when the passions within us are directed toward the fulfillment of God’s will for us and for the perfection of charity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Could I ask once more - what acts of all transsexuals (and only all transsexuals) are sinful?

 

[Freshman88]

Could I ask once more - what acts of all transsexuals (and only all transsexuals) are sinful?

Identifying with a gender that is different from one’s own biological gender. The difference between not sinning and sinning is going from a desire to identify with the other sex to actually identifying as the opposite sex.

 

[Freshman88]

edit: it appears that there are different definitions of what a transsexual is. If being a transsexual simply means wanting to identify with the other gender, then it is possible that such a person has not sinned. As I said before, the difference between sinning and not sinning is actually identifying as transsexual. If a person were to say that “I am a women” and were to truly believe this despite being a biological male, then they have sinned. Yet if the same person only had a feeling that they were a “woman” but did not identify as such then they have not sinned. One crosses the line from not sinning to sinning when they try to turn that feeling into a, action.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that transsexualism may be a disorder either physiological or mental in nature. Depending on how transsexualism manifests itself, a person may not be entirely culpable. Still, maiming one’s body is not a viable solution.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

If a person were to say that “I am a women” and were to truly believe this despite being a biological male, then they have sinned. Yet if the same person only had a feeling that they were a “woman” but did not identify as such then they have not sinned. One crosses the line from not sinning to sinning when they try to turn that feeling into a, action.

We have never found a transsexual woman who was wholly biologically male.

See for example:
Kruijver FP, Zhou JN, Pool CW, Hofman MA, Gooren LJ, Swaab DF. Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000;85:2034-2041

Some indeed were wholly biologically female at birth, but assigned male and surgically altered to look male as infants, without their knowledge.

In 1985 I was diagnosed as a mildly intersexed male. I had a female gender identity, I believed that I was female. Just with a masculinised body, so tried to be the best man any woman can be.

In 2005 I had a female puberty. Partial, abnormal, but definitely female. After many, many tests I was re-diagnosed as a severely intersexed female.

By every single test we have, I am identical in mind and brain to all other transsexual women;. No exceptions that we’ve ever found. I can’t say that there are absolutely none: to prove that would require examining every single transsexual person on the planet.

But it would be like saying that Catholics have 6 legs. I can’t prove that there is no Catholic with a rare medical condition who doesn’t, without examining all of them.

Please view this article and video and get back to me. I wish to know whether they were sinning before puberty, or afterwards.

 

[LTSpike]

Thing is, I’m not sure if he’s talking about practicing ones or all of them.

I believe he is talking about ‘practicing’ ones. Although the terminology is not terribly consistent, I have generally heard to word ‘homosexual’ applied to people with such tendencies or feelings, and the term ‘gay’ applied to those who adopt an active sexual lifestyle based on those tendencies.

 

[someone82]

No one, not even a cardinal, can determine where one’s soul will spend eternity. That is between the person and God.

 

[JReducation]

No one, not even a cardinal, can determine where one’s soul will spend eternity. That is between the person and God.

This is partially true. The Church can infallibly say that someone is in heaven. That’s what a decree of canonization is about. But she cannot say that someone is in hell or is going to hell. But the Church does not attempt to do this.

The Church speaks objectively. She says that if one lives a certain way one will lose ones soul. But, she does not say that the individual, John Doe, will go to hell because he is gay, a thief, etc. The Church does not do that to people. She speaks about choices, not individuals by name, address and social security number.

Even when speaking about saints, she does not say that someone is a saint whle they are alive.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Freshman88]

…

Intersex or hermaphrodite is not the same as transsexual. With regard to the article you have, those boys do not qualify as transsexuals and they certainly have not sinned. The Church would never claim that those boys have sinned.

Again, transsexual is someone who is born completely as one gender without any kind of abnormality but still insists on changing their sex.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Again, transsexual is someone who is born completely as one gender without any kind of abnormality but still insists on changing their sex.

There is no evidence that such people actually exist.

All the people labelled “transsexual” that have ever been examined have neurological anatomy that is Intersexed. All of them. It’s only been since the advent of MRI scans that we were able to determine this.

They are labelled “Transsexual” anyway. No distinction is made from the hypothetical and quite possibly mythical syndrome you describe.

Again, we can’t be certain that this is true for all, and as some of the differences are only visible through autopsy, use as a diagnostic tool is limited.

 

[CatholicGuy22]

Gay activists fight for what they believe in but I fight for what God believes in.

 

[thepath]

It is not easy to be a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ - we will all die for an eternity - forever - are you prepared for your moment of death - do you know where you will be going for that eternal time and place? Jesus has said it - the Homosexual lifestyle is an abomination.

 

[JReducation]

It is not easy to be a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ - we will all die for an eternity - forever - are you prepared for your moment of death - do you know where you will be going for that eternal time and place? Jesus has said it - the Homosexual lifestyle is an abomination.

Actually, it is St. Paul who addresses this, not Jesus. He does not refer to it as an abomination. I have no idea where that term came from. St. Paul is preaching about the virtues by laying out their opposites. He’s trying to help his reader understand the mission and purpose of human sexuality. He lays out homosexual behaviors as the antithesis of the purpose of human sexuality.

It is good for us to teach the spiritual life. But it is very important that we use the correct theological terms and explain the context of the scripture and the message behind the biblical passage. Everyone condemnation in scrpture was written with the intent of exalting a particular virtue. None of them are gratuitous. They all deliver a very strong call to the opposing virtue.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[remjsmom76]

Im am NOT on the side of gay activists and this thread here and some comments disgust me! Seriously…we can not say things like that. Saying and feeling things like that mark us for harsh punishment by our Lord. The way you treat and “convict” others and judge them (YES ITS JUDGING THEM) is how the lord will judge us. How do we know if they will NOT enter the heavenly kindom…and how do YOU know you will??? For all we know they will enter because they are good people who take care of those who need to be taken care of, feed those who need to be fed and cloth those that need to be clothed. You might not enter for saying such things as “THEY WILL NOT ENTER THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM!” To you pretend to know what GOD will do??? I hope not…cause then you will be in serious trouble when you meet him face to face.

I dont agree with gay actions and their lifestyles…but I have some compassion and mercy for them and I just pray for them that they see the wrongs they are doing.

 

[rlg94086]

Im am NOT on the side of gay activists and this thread here and some comments disgust me! Seriously…we can not say things like that. Saying and feeling things like that mark us for harsh punishment by our Lord. The way you treat and “convict” others and judge them (YES ITS JUDGING THEM) is how the lord will judge us. How do we know if they will NOT enter the heavenly kindom…and how do YOU know you will??? For all we know they will enter because they are good people who take care of those who need to be taken care of, feed those who need to be fed and cloth those that need to be clothed. You might not enter for saying such things as “THEY WILL NOT ENTER THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM!” To you pretend to know what GOD will do???** I hope not…cause then you will be in serious trouble when you meet him face to face.**

I dont agree with gay actions and their lifestyles…but I have some compassion and mercy for them and I just pray for them that they see the wrongs they are doing.

So…you are saying that others can’t tell gay people that they “will be in serious trouble” come judgment day because of their sinful choices, but it is okay for you to tell those who say such things that they “will be in serious trouble” come judgment day?

We can’t know the state of an individual’s soul, but we can know whether actions are grave sin. For example: If a person living a gay lifestyle were to ask me if I thought their lifestyle would send them to hell, I would have to honestly answer that the Church teaches that homosexual acts are grave sin. If they are committing that mortal sin (full knowledge and freely chosen), then they have chosen to turn away from God and have brought condemnation on themselves. As I can’t possibly know whether they are in the state of mortal sin, I have no way of telling them whether they are going to hell or not.

There is nothing wrong with a general statement that matches what St Paul said, but we should never condemn individuals since we don’t have the capacity to judge their eternal souls - that is God’s job.

 

[jongenaro]

It’s a shame that so many Gays are against the Church. I think it lies with the Church being misunderstood by those of the gay community. I think that if Priests and Bishops said why it is wrong rather than just saying that it’s wrong, things would make sense to them.

This probably could be an entirely different thread but I feel like homilies are constantly about the same thing all the time - Forgive and love one another. This is obviously very important in living a Christian life but topics such as the Eucharist and what the Mass is truely about is seldom heard for a homily. I don’t know if this happens in other parts of the country and world but I’ve realized this from where I live. It’s shameful. I had to teach myself what the Mass is about because the Priests didn’t teach it and the CCD program was aweful. It’s such a shame. No wonder why there are so many people turning away from the faith. If only they knew the beauty of Roman Catholicism. It’s a good thing that Our Holy Father is calling for good priests in this Year for Priests.

 

[JReducation]

I think that some subject tend to bring out the most emotional and passionate responses in people. Often our guts don’t know that we’re Catholic. Therefore, our guts don’t always use such language as “objective culpability” vs “subjective culpability”. What happens is that when we speak, we sound as if we’re on the attack or judging individuals, rather than making objective judgments of actions, values, behaviors, beliefs. If we could take a step back before we respond to some of these issues, we may sound less threatening and much more like the Church when we speak. My suggestion on these kinds of subjects is to take a step back and organize your reponse so that it speaks objectively about actions, choices, values, beliefs and not aboiut individuals.

We can tell someone that their behavior is wrong. That is one thing, because it’s something that we can see. In that case, we’re not losing objectivity. We cannot tell a person that they are going to hell, because the soul and the actions of grace are not things that we can see, much less is the future. People do change. There is where we have to draw that fine line. If I see someone strke another person, I have the right and duty to intervene and tell they that they may not do so again and that the aciton is wrong. I can’t say that the perosn is going to hell for that action. Do you see where the line goes?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF