Gay agenda indoctrinating young children

[Maxply]

Fitz: you’re incorrect in a way.

It IS possible to take someone young, at a formative stage in his gender identity, and affect his sexual identity.

So looking at it developmentally, it IS possible to turn someone who is more likely to be heterosexual, into someone who acts homosexually, and identifies himself as a homosexual.

I cannot take seriously the occasional acts of violence against homosexuals as being “proof” that heterosexuals hate homosexuals. These are incidents of specific persons, that get all too frequently blown out of proportion by the homosexual activists.

I would advise any homosexual to lessen their emotional attachment to this activity. I’d advise the same to anyone who self-identified himself or herself as a sadomasochist, etc.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Fitz: you’re incorrect in a way.

It IS possible to take someone young, at a formative stage in his gender identity, and affect his sexual identity.

So looking at it developmentally, it IS possible to turn someone who is more likely to be heterosexual, into someone who acts homosexually, and identifies himself as a homosexual.

I cannot take seriously the occasional acts of violence against homosexuals as being “proof” that heterosexuals hate homosexuals. These are incidents of specific persons, that get all too frequently blown out of proportion by the homosexual activists.

I would advise any homosexual to lessen their emotional attachment to this activity. I’d advise the same to anyone who self-identified himself or herself as a sadomasochist, etc.

I will ask the same question of you that I ask of every heterosexual who believes that you can “create” a homosexual.

How was your sexuality created in you? What indoctrination did your parents and educators use to make you heterosexual?

I grew up before the “gay agenda” and I’m still homosexual.

FTR-I’m not attached to the activity because I do not engage in it. However, I’m attached to who I am because that is how God created me whether I like it or not.

 

[rlg94086]

I will ask the same question of you that I ask of every heterosexual who believes that you can “create” a homosexual.

How was your sexuality created in you? What indoctrination did your parents and educators use to make you heterosexual?

I grew up before the “gay agenda” and I’m still homosexual.

FTR-I’m not attached to the activity because I do not engage in it. However, I’m attached to who I am because that is how God created me whether I like it or not.

Personally, I believe that desire for opposite/same sex is a spectrum. Obviously, the norm of the spectrum is opposite sex, but there is a variation of desire from strongly desiring same sex, having some desire for both but more for same sex, having roughly equal desire for both, having some desire for both but more for opposite sex, having strong desire for opposite sex.

I have known people who are homosexual “by choice” - that is what they told me. Your experience may be different than theirs, but your’s is not the only experience. I believe that those in the parts of the spectrum with mixed desires could be influenced more toward the opposite sex - most are. If we start to make everything equivalent, those with mixed desires will come to decide that, “I am born homosexual,” even if they aren’t in the “strong desire” category.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Personally, I believe that desire for opposite/same sex is a spectrum. Obviously, the norm of the spectrum is opposite sex, but there is a variation of desire from strongly desiring same sex, having some desire for both but more for same sex, having roughly equal desire for both, having some desire for both but more for opposite sex, having strong desire for opposite sex.

I have known people who are homosexual “by choice” - that is what they told me. Your experience may be different than theirs, but your’s is not the only experience. I believe that those in the parts of the spectrum with mixed desires could be influenced more toward the opposite sex - most are. If we start to make everything equivalent, those with mixed desires will come to decide that, “I am born homosexual,” even if they aren’t in the “strong desire” category.

Wow, I can honestly say I have never met anyone who was homosexual by choice. I have met bisexuals, but never anyone who chose their attraction to the same gender. Even the bisexual folks I knew didn’t choose that attraction-they would have preferred to be one or the other.

I was at one time involved with homosexual groups, and I still have many homosexual friends. I left the groups because I felt uncomfortable with the attitude that that act was ok, but I still know a lot of people.

Again, we’re talking about different things. I’m not talking about making sexual acts morally equivilent-obviously you can’t do that. What I am advocating is making human beings morally equivilent in their existence and creation.

 

[rlg94086]

Wow, I can honestly say I have never met anyone who was homosexual by choice. I have met bisexuals, but never anyone who chose their attraction to the same gender. Even the bisexual folks I knew didn’t choose that attraction-they would have preferred to be one or the other.

Ah…I didn’t say they chose the attraction. The problem with the “born Gay” idea in society is that it changes things to a black-and-white state of being. The Lesbian neighbor I had was married and had kids before she chose to live as a Lesbian - divorced her husband and moved in with another Lesbian. Now, maybe she was “born” in the “having some desire for both but more for same sex,” chose to marry a man, but later chose to be Lesbian? That’s how labels and saying we are “born” a certain way get us in trouble. When you understand that desire for the same sex is a disordered desire, then such a “choice” wouldn’t make any sense.

My brother’s wife announced to him that she was Bi-Sexual and convinced him to let a Lesbian move in with them. When I discussed this with a Lesbian co-worker, she adamently said, “that is wrong, she needs to choose.” Choose what you say? She was “born” that way, right?

Fitswimmer:

I was at one time involved with homosexual groups, and I still have many homosexual friends. I left the groups because I felt uncomfortable with the attitude that that act was ok, but I still know a lot of people.

Good. You should encourage them to understand our faith and what the Church really teaches. Hopefully, they will learn what it means to have a “disordered desire” (i.e. doesn’t mean **you **are a disordered human being).

“By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.” (CCC 2359)

Fitswimmer:

Again, we’re talking about different things. I’m not talking about making sexual acts morally equivilent-obviously you can’t do that. What I am advocating is making human beings morally equivilent in their existence and creation.

Please see my earlier post about the way a “tolerance” program should be done. Having a Gay Pride day that makes the relationships equal to heterosexual relationships (as in the videos in the OP) is not the way to do it.

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

We are certainly NOT to hate a homosexual individual. They have a great cross to carry.

But I do not accept that all homosexuals cannot change; a number of them can and have although it is not PC to say so.

But the agenda in the school is far from just ‘don’t call names’–it is indoctrination at a sensitive age when curiosity does lead to experimentation. YES, sex education has led to an enormous increase in sexual activity at an ever earlier age. My coworker told me that 4 girls in her son’s 7th grade were pregnant this year–these are 12 year olds. Morality is NOT taught! In the field behind my house where teens sometimes come I find condoms and even plan b packages. Girls are used and discarded and disrespected as never before.

The gay agenda is huge and it is not just about being ‘nice’ to gays. Far from it, far from just a tolerance–this is another blow at family life as God planned it. Two gays will not make a family for they are sterile with each other. It is a living out of a lust that can never be life giving. It is indeed contrary to the natural law and natural order.

I have worked with gay people, male and female–no problem. But to be forced into approval of a sinful lifestyle is something I will never do.

The truth must be told: the living and acting out of a sodomite life is an offense to God. It must be terribly difficult to feel forced to live a chaste and celibate life, feeling that one has no alternative if one is to please God. But that would be the path to holiness and to heaven.

For those with SSA—lets us pray.

Ave Maria!

 

[Fitswimmer]

I know a couple of homosexuals who tried to be “normal”. They got married and even had kids, but they didn’t do it because they were attracted to the opposite sex, they did it because they wanted to be like everyone else. Those kind of relationships aren’t fair to anyone involved. It’s not a marriage or a family based on love, it’s based on societal pressure. The only “choice” involved is about living like everyone else or living alone. It’s tempting, I’ll admit it-but it’s not honest. I came very close in college to getting into that kind of relationship, but I liked the guy too much as a friend to do that. I couldn’t say that I loved him that way because I really didn’t. He was a great guy and deserved better.

 

[rlg94086]

I know a couple of homosexuals who tried to be “normal”. They got married and even had kids, but they didn’t do it because they were attracted to the opposite sex, they did it because they wanted to be like everyone else. Those kind of relationships aren’t fair to anyone involved. It’s not a marriage or a family based on love, it’s based on societal pressure. The only “choice” involved is about living like everyone else or living alone. It’s tempting, I’ll admit it-but it’s not honest. I came very close in college to getting into that kind of relationship, but I liked the guy too much as a friend to do that. I couldn’t say that I loved him that way because I really didn’t. He was a great guy and deserved better.

So, you haven’t commented on it, but it sounds like you reject the concept of a desire spectrum? People are either born homosexual, heterosexual or bi-sexual? No variance? Someone who is bi-sexual is equally desirous of both and doesn’t need to choose one or the other, because they are born that way?

It just doesn’t match my experiences and discussions with people who have desire for the same sex. I don’t believe it is black and white. I personally believe that the folks who are pushing gay rights want everyone to accept the black and white proposition, because it suits their goals.

 

[Fitswimmer]

So, you haven’t commented on it, but it sounds like you reject the concept of a desire spectrum? People are either born homosexual, heterosexual or bi-sexual? No variance? Someone who is bi-sexual is equally desirous of both and doesn’t need to choose one or the other, because they are born that way?

It just doesn’t match my experiences and discussions with people who have desire for the same sex. I don’t believe it is black and white. I personally believe that the folks who are pushing gay rights want everyone to accept the black and white proposition, because it suits their goals.

I’m not going to discount the possibility-but I can honestly say I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t either totally homosexual or totally heterosexual. The only bisexual people I know suppressed their desire for their own gender in order to “make life easier”, not because their desires were any less for one than the other. The “choice” idea is something that we talk about a LOT because most of us would love it if it had been that easy.

 

[Annn]

rlg,

i am enjoying your posts on “the spectrum,” and i think you are perhaps misunderstanding some aspects of gay-rights activism and the desire to be “black or white.” as a student at a very liberal, progressive college, i have noticed the opposite. my pro-gay-rights peers use the phrase “queer” instead of gay, bi, lesbian, etc to signify that people have orientations in between the two poles of gay and straight. this is why the term “queer” is deemed useful to many gay-rights activists, because it is inclusive and signals that there are people in between “gay” and “straight.” kinsey thought the same thing; see the kinsey scale, which i think places sexuality on a 0-6 scale.

 

[Starwynd]

Hey, everybody with an ideology of some sort targets the kids. Not just the homos.

But kids should just be left alone and allowed to develop their own ideals.

 

[Annn]

I’m not going to discount the possibility-but I can honestly say I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t either totally homosexual or totally heterosexual. The only bisexual people I know suppressed their desire for their own gender in order to “make life easier”, not because their desires were any less for one than the other. The “choice” idea is something that we talk about a LOT because most of us would love it if it had been that easy.

Fitswimmer, I definitely know people who are into people of both genders. While they eventually settle down with one person, it doesn’t make them “straight” if the person is the opposite gender and “gay” if they aren’t. And most of them do not EVER use the term “bisexual” because it carries tooo much stigma. I suggest reading Rich Savin-Williams’s book “The New Gay Teenager”

 

[Fitswimmer]

Fitswimmer, I definitely know people who are into people of both genders. While they eventually settle down with one person, it doesn’t make them “straight” if the person is the opposite gender and “gay” if they aren’t. And most of them do not EVER use the term “bisexual” because it carries tooo much stigma. I suggest reading Rich Savin-Williams’s book “The New Gay Teenager”

But that’s my point. They are still not heterosexual even if they marry someone of the opposite gender. They’re choosing one or the other, but it doesn’t mean that they have eliminated the desire for one or the other. They might appear “normal” but they have not changed anything about how they were created.

The bottom line is that I do not believe we can “choose” to be anything other than the way God created us.

 

[rlg94086]

rlg,

i am enjoying your posts on “the spectrum,” and i think you are perhaps misunderstanding some aspects of gay-rights activism and the desire to be “black or white.” as a student at a very liberal, progressive college, i have noticed the opposite. my pro-gay-rights peers use the phrase “queer” instead of gay, bi, lesbian, etc to signify that people have orientations in between the two poles of gay and straight. this is why the term “queer” is deemed useful to many gay-rights activists, because it is inclusive and signals that there are people in between “gay” and “straight.” kinsey thought the same thing; see the kinsey scale, which i think places sexuality on a 0-6 scale.

Fair enough. However, they feel that all of these “queer” people are in a static state of being…iow that their queerness is the essence of who they are, they were born that way and can’t change. That is what I mean by black-and-white.

If you believe in varying level of attraction, but you recognize that same-sex attraction is a disordered desire, then you don’t accept a static state of being. You recognize that you have some desires that are not acceptable, and you have to choose what to do with those desires. The correct choice is to live a chaste life, because that is what God calls us to do. If that means celibacy, then so be it. If you have desires for both sexes, and your desire for the opposite sex is strong enough that you can overcome your same sex desires through “self-mastery,” then there is nothing wrong with choosing to live in a “straight” relationship.

If you choose to turn your back on God, and live in a gay relationship, then you need to accept that you are not the “norm” and other people do not have to accept your relationship as “equal.”

Regardless, no one should be treated with hatred, unjustly discriminated against, etc.

 

[rlg94086]

But that’s my point. They are still not heterosexual even if they marry someone of the opposite gender. They’re choosing one or the other, but it doesn’t mean that they have eliminated the desire for one or the other. They might appear “normal” but they have not changed anything about how they were created.

The bottom line is that I do not believe we can “choose” to be anything other than the way God created us.

Again, you have bought into a lie IMO. Homosexual and Heterosexual are descriptions of how people live their lives, based on the sexual desires they have. You are not a different classification of human. Now, if they find a “gay gene,” you might have an argument for that, but as of today’s research it doesn’t exist scientifically - it isn’t the same as pigment, eye color, etc.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Again, you have bought into a lie IMO. Homosexual and Heterosexual are descriptions of how people live their lives, based on the sexual desires they have. You are not a different classification of human. Now, if they find a “gay gene,” you might have an argument for that, but as of today’s research it doesn’t exist scientifically - it isn’t the same as pigment, eye color, etc.

My sexual orientation is NOT a decision, I did not choose to live my life with this orientation. I chose how I deal with the orientation, but I did not choose to live my life with it. I would have chosen another way to live my life if that had been possible…

Again, the same question continues to remain unanswered. How did the heterosexuals among us become that way? What environmental, educational or parental factors create the heterosexual orientation and determine how they will live their lives?

Since I have never received an answer to this, I must assume that heterosexuals were created the same way I was and had no more control over it than I did.

 

[Holly3278]

Oh, that would be too judgmental and divisive.

It also wouldn’t be politically correct.

This is very sad.

 

[rlg94086]

My sexual orientation is NOT a decision, I did not choose to live my life with this orientation. I chose how I deal with the orientation, but I did not choose to live my life with it. I would have chosen another way to live my life if that had been possible…

Again, the same question continues to remain unanswered. How did the heterosexuals among us become that way? What environmental, educational or parental factors create the heterosexual orientation and determine how they will live their lives?

Since I have never received an answer to this, I must assume that heterosexuals were created the same way I was and had no more control over it than I did.

It’s a boring question. Since being attracted to someone of the same sex is a “disordered desire,” certainly I accept that the desire itself could be something you are born with. However, desires are not something that can’t be overcome. Otherwise, when someone has a desire to kill someone else, we would just say…“well God created him with that desire…nothing we can do about it.”

Now, the difficulty of overcoming such a desire can vary within individuals - thus my contention, which you haven’t said “boo” about, that there is a spectrum of such desires. The proper ordering of desire is heterosexual. With proper upbringing, societal norms, etcetera, indeed there are some who go through a transitory period of “experimentation” but end up “heterosexual.”

As the Catechism teaches…

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial.

Meaning? It is a burden that must be dealt with. Heterosexual desires are not a trial (except for the trial we all have - chastity), as they are the ordering God intends, which is why I quoted CCC2359 in a previous post. What do you think the Catechism means by “approaching Christian perfection?” We all have to overcome disordered desires through “self-mastery” to approach Christian perfection. In a way you are correct to have a sense of helplessness, but with grace from the Holy Spirit, the desires can be overcome.

 

[Annn]

Do you think all people who have same-sex attractiion can “overcome” these desires? Does this simply mean not act on them or does it mean something else?

 

[rlg94086]

Do you think all people who have same-sex attractiion can “overcome” these desires? Does this simply mean not act on them or does it mean something else?

Yes, it means, at a minimum, not to act on them (i.e. chastity). Personally, I think it is asking too much of some people - those with what the Church refers to as “deep-seated” desires - to change those desires to being properly ordered. For others, it is possible.

Understand though, chastity is obviously not an easy thing for anyone. Just look at our society! Since anyone who does/can not marry is called to celibacy, I would guess that is an even bigger hurdle. There are many priests/religious who would tell you it is no cakewalk; however, many, many of them control their sexual desires successfully.

My problem with the “I’m born this way” statement is that people set homosexual desires as God-given - something to be embraced and even celebrated. Is that really the case? Does God give us our disordered desires to hate, kill, covet, etc.? Or, is that part of our fallen nature?