Gay agenda indoctrinating young children

[nan]

“We can make a difference by asking for lesson plans to be reviewed by Principals, and books and videos to be approved before showing.”
Or we can homeschool.

 

[rlg94086]

It does NOT say that the PERSON is disordered. It does NOT say that the PERSON is mentally ill.

The prevailing tendency to project the idea of disordered, sinful actions onto the person themselves seems unique to the treatment of homosexuals in the Church-not by the official Church of course, but by it’s “faithful” members. People do not differentiate between the act and the person when it comes to homosexuality-and you can see it very clearly on forums and in RL when this issue is raised. I know that we’re considered to be hypersensitive on this issue, but try reversing things and having heterosexual replaced with homosexual in some of these conversations and see how it would feel.

You are correct, and I try my best to correct such outlooks by some Catholics who believe someone with a disordered desire is a “disordered person.” Reversing the discussion to heterosexual would be illuminating to people on both sides. Can you imagine someone saying “I was born a masturbater…God made me this way?” Silly, isn’t it? Similarly, if someone condemned a person who has an “addiction” to porn an masturbation as being inherently sinful, it would be just as ridiculous as claiming that someone who has deep-seated homosexual desires as being inherently sinful.

Fitswimmer:

Someone who is an unrepentant sinner would never be honored by the Church no matter what the sin was. However, with the prevailing attitude of condemning the individuals along with the acts when it comes to homosexuality-if the Church were ever to honor a chaste homosexual it would create a larger riot than the Vatican II changes to the liturgy!

I disagree. The Church recognizes and encourages the Courage apostolate, whose purpose is to “assist men and women with same-sex attractions in living chaste lives in fellowship, truth and love.”

couragerc.org/TheCourageApostolate.html

 

[rlg94086]

I think people fall into that trap of being defined as homosexual. People should not let their particular disordered inclinations define who they are.

This is what I have been trying to say, but it is consistently met with rejection.

 

[Fitswimmer]

This is what I have been trying to say, but it is consistently met with rejection.

If I recall, both times I addressed it I said that I didn’t discount the possibility of such a thing, only that in my lifetime I have not encountered it. Since neither of us are providing statistics or other evidence, my experience is just as valid as yours.

 

[rlg94086]

If I recall, both times I addressed it I said that I didn’t discount the possibility of such a thing, only that in my lifetime I have not encountered it. Since neither of us are providing statistics or other evidence, my experience is just as valid as yours.

Are you saying you don’t believe the Church teaching that homosexual desire is a “disordered desire?” If you are living a chaste life, why is it important to identify yourself as “homosexual?” Why not just be a Catholic woman, living a single, celibate life? What makes you different from a “heterosexual” woman doing the same? She would have to avoid her sexual desires, as well.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Are you saying you don’t believe the Church teaching that homosexual desire is a “disordered desire?” If you are living a chaste life, why is it important to identify yourself as “homosexual?” Why not just be a Catholic woman, living a single, celibate life? What makes you different from a “heterosexual” woman doing the same? She would have to avoid her sexual desires, as well.

I was responding to the idea that there is a spectrum, since it is being continually asserted that I either did not respond or rejected it.

As for your other questions.

1. Is the desire disordered. yes, because the normative order of attraction is male/female. Now, having said that, just because something is not normative does not mean that it is not created by God. If God created me in my entire being, then He also created my sexual desire. Why? I’m hoping to find that out someday, but until someone proves to me that I was NOT created this way-then I must assume that God had a reason to do it.
2. Why identify as a homosexual? Because it is the only way I can identify myself honestly. I’m not just “a Catholic woman living a chaste life” because if I were, I would have the desire and the hope of meeting a man, falling in love and getting married. As a homosexual, not only do I not have the hope, it’s not even remotely appealing. I’m not grossed out by it like many heterosexuals are about homosexual behavior, but it still leaves me cold. A heterosexual person living a chaste life would probably not be facing living that way forever-unless they took vows.
   If God had a reason for creating me this way, and planting in me the desire to obey His laws rather than give in to the desires of the flesh, then I believe hiding the truth could be subverting His purpose. Now, I don’t wear a sign, and I have not “come out” to everyone I know and interact with. My guess is that 99% of them already know without my saying anything-“gaydar” isn’t just a joke on TV. Everyone does know that I live a chaste life, but I haven’t spelled out the exact reasons why with everyone.

 

[rlg94086]

I was responding to the idea that there is a spectrum, since it is being continually asserted that I either did not respond or rejected it.

Okay…you picked a strange post to respond to that idea. Here was the interchange between me and Michael Neal:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Neal forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
I think people fall into that trap of being defined as homosexual. People should not let their particular disordered inclinations define who they are.

This is what I have been trying to say, but it is consistently met with rejection.

No spectrum mentioned…just identification.

Fitswimmer:

As for your other questions.

1. Is the desire disordered. yes, because the normative order of attraction is male/female. Now, having said that, just because something is not normative does not mean that it is not created by God. If God created me in my entire being, then He also created my sexual desire. Why? I’m hoping to find that out someday, but until someone proves to me that I was NOT created this way-then I must assume that God had a reason to do it.

Did God give us all of our sinful desires?
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

[2515](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2515.htm’) Etymologically, “concupiscence” can refer to any intense form of human desire. Christian theology has given it a particular meaning: the movement of the sensitive appetite contrary to the operation of the human reason. The apostle St. Paul identifies it with the rebellion of the “flesh” against the "spirit."302 Concupiscence stems from the disobedience of the first sin. It unsettles man’s moral faculties and, without being in itself an offense, inclines man to commit sins.303

[2516](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2516.htm’) Because man is a composite being, spirit and body, there already exists a certain tension in him; a certain struggle of tendencies between “spirit” and “flesh” develops. But in fact this struggle belongs to the heritage of sin. It is a consequence of sin and at the same time a confirmation of it. It is part of the daily experience of the spiritual battle:
For the Apostle it is not a matter of despising and condemning the body which with the spiritual soul constitutes man’s nature and personal subjectivity. Rather, he is concerned with the morally good or bad works, or better, the permanent dispositions - virtues and vices - which are the fruit of *submission *(in the first case) or of *resistance *(in the second case) to the saving action of the Holy Spirit. For this reason the Apostle writes: "If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."304

Fitswimmer:

1. Why identify as a homosexual? Because it is the only way I can identify myself honestly. I’m not just “a Catholic woman living a chaste life” because if I were, I would have the desire and the hope of meeting a man, falling in love and getting married. As a homosexual, not only do I not have the hope, it’s not even remotely appealing. I’m not grossed out by it like many heterosexuals are about homosexual behavior, but it still leaves me cold. A heterosexual person living a chaste life would probably not be facing living that way forever-unless they took vows.
   If God had a reason for creating me this way, and planting in me the desire to obey His laws rather than give in to the desires of the flesh, then I believe hiding the truth could be subverting His purpose. Now, I don’t wear a sign, and I have not “come out” to everyone I know and interact with. My guess is that 99% of them already know without my saying anything-“gaydar” isn’t just a joke on TV. Everyone does know that I live a chaste life, but I haven’t spelled out the exact reasons why with everyone.

You misquoted me. I said you are the same as a “Catholic woman living a *celibate *life.” Celibate and chaste are not the same thing. I guarantee you that a celibate woman with heterosexual desires sets off he same “gaydar” as a celibate woman with homosexual desires, if they dress similarly, act similarly, etc. In fact, I find the idea of a “gaydar” as insulting, because I have known people who assume someone is gay and are wrong. In fact, close friends of mine originally assumed I was gay, and I have been propositioned by a gay man. Most people when confronted with the false results of their “gaydar” claim that the person is a “closet homosexual.” Isn’t that nice.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Okay…you picked a strange post to respond to that idea. Here was the interchange between me and Michael Neal:

No spectrum mentioned…just identification.

Did God give us all of our sinful desires?

You misquoted me. I said you are the same as a “Catholic woman living a *celibate *life.” Celibate and chaste are not the same thing. I guarantee you that a celibate woman with heterosexual desires sets off he same “gaydar” as a celibate woman with homosexual desires, if they dress similarly, act similarly, etc. In fact, I find the idea of a “gaydar” as insulting, because I have known people who assume someone is gay and are wrong. In fact, close friends of mine originally assumed I was gay, and I have been propositioned by a gay man. Most people when confronted with the false results of their “gaydar” claim that the person is a “closet homosexual.” Isn’t that nice.

That still doesn’t change the fact that my reality is that I am not simply a Catholic woman living a celibate or a chaste life. I don’t know how to explain the difference to you-I don’t really have words for it, nor can I find an acceptable analogy. The only thing I can say is that there is a difference to me in terms of authenticity. Not to say I haven’t tried going that way, but it just never has felt true.

As far as God giving us our sinful desires-I’m not sure that I would say it quite that way. I believe that God does allow people to bear certain Crosses, for reasons that we will not know until we meet Him and we get to ask! (don’t think I’m not looking forward to getting that chance. )

I have heard the ‘closet homosexual’ thing and I don’t like it either. To me it’s similar to the idea of people assuming that every homosexual is committing sin. Unless they’ve been caught in the act or have admitted to it-they could be just like me.

 

[Michael_Neal]

pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1497098

This above study found that 35% of homosexuals in that study reported being sexually abused as a child. I remember reading another study that put that number at 60%.

This lends some weight to the argument that factors other than genetics may have an influence over what triggers homosexuality.

For most homosexuals it may be true that their sexual orientation was not a choice but it could very well have been triggered by psychological events in their lives childhood abuse being one potential factor in 1 out of 3 cases.

At the very least it shows that previous abuse is one factor that leads to later homosexuality and that psychological events can trigger it.

This also shows that we should have tolerance and understanding of people afflicted with this disorder.

 

[rlg94086]

That still doesn’t change the fact that my reality is that I am not simply a Catholic woman living a celibate or a chaste life. I don’t know how to explain the difference to you-I don’t really have words for it, nor can I find an acceptable analogy. The only thing I can say is that there is a difference to me in terms of authenticity. Not to say I haven’t tried going that way, but it just never has felt true.

Going what way? Perhaps you are missing my point…celibate is celibate. Differentiating between a “homosexual” or “heterosexual” celibate is pointless. If a woman is living in a non-married state and doesn’t date, she is celibate, and the struggles against concupiscence is the same.

Fitswimmer:

As far as God giving us our sinful desires-I’m not sure that I would say it quite that way. I believe that God does allow people to bear certain Crosses, for reasons that we will not know until we meet Him and we get to ask! (don’t think I’m not looking forward to getting that chance. )

I have heard the ‘closet homosexual’ thing and I don’t like it either. To me it’s similar to the idea of people assuming that every homosexual is committing sin. Unless they’ve been caught in the act or have admitted to it-they could be just like me.

Exactly. I’m glad we agree. People are very judgmental and/or prejudgmental. When I catch myself in such prejudices (not just sexual issues, anything based on the way people are dressed, act, etc.), I feel shameful and take it to Confession. It is difficult for any of us to see people the way God sees us, but we need to try. We can still judge sinful acts, but we should not judge the person’s state of being.

 

[rlg94086]

Evidence??? I’ve yet to meet anyone who was “converted” to hetero or homosexuality. I know people who are active in the gay community, I know people who just live their lives as gay people and of course, most of my friends are straight. Most people I know on both sides view this as an urban myth designed to create and promote fear of homosexuals as people.

Oh…btw…I almost forgot one of the other experiences which may apply here. My wife and I helped one of my co-workers sign himself in for drug rehab. In the process, a psychologist helped him “discover” that he is gay. So, he went from womanizing heterosexual to entering into a homosexual relationship with a lot of public displays of affection . I think that would be an example of someone who was “converted.” Of course, some people would say, “well, he really was always gay and just covering it up with all of his womanizing.” That is a convenient argument, but there is no evidence to back up that assumption.

We lost touch with him. Years later, some mutual friends told me that he ended up marrying a woman. Must be covering up his “homosexuality” again.

 

[Jennifer123]

Oh…btw…I almost forgot one of the other experiences which may apply here. My wife and I helped one of my co-workers sign himself in for drug rehab. In the process, a psychologist helped him “discover” that he is gay. So, he went from womanizing heterosexual to entering into a homosexual relationship with a lot of public displays of affection . I think that would be an example of someone who was “converted.” Of course, some people would say, “well, he really was always gay and just covering it up with all of his womanizing.” That is a convenient argument, but there is no evidence to back up that assumption.

We lost touch with him. Years later, some mutual friends told me that he ended up marrying a woman. Must be covering up his “homosexuality” again.

One of the biggest reasons that teens leave the Catholic Church is because of sexual sin.

Seems to me that certain elements of secular society are working towards leading many children astray from their particular faith, or belief system in order to embrace or even just support a lifestyle that seems, at least to the great majority of truly uncatechised Christians, incompatible with Christian faith.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the kids receiving this lecture are not teens but rather very small children, yes?

 

[rlg94086]

One of the biggest reasons that teens leave the Catholic Church is because of sexual sin.

Seems to me that certain elements of secular society are working towards leading many children astray from their particular faith, or belief system in order to embrace or even just support a lifestyle that seems, at least to the great majority of truly uncatechised Christians, incompatible with Christian faith.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the kids receiving this lecture are not teens but rather very small children, yes?

That is correct - Elementary School. I don’t think the intent is to “convert” kids to homosexuality as some fear. Rather, it is to make homosexuality equal in acceptance to heterosexuality. Part of the aims are fine - tolerance of people who are different. However, as has been pointed out, there are children who feel some same sex attraction during their formative and teen years. By making it equivalent to opposite sex attraction, it may lead some kids to determine falsely that they are “gay” because they have those feelings. This is the problem with such curricula.

Again, I would have less or no problem with something that taught tolerance in general - race, height, weight, religion, accents, looks, sports ability, intelligence, disabilities and homosexuality. All of these things are objects of ridicule/bullying. It would be healthy for kids to understand the idea that no one should be ridiculed, bullied or otherwise discriminated against because they are “different.” However, it is not necessary, and IMO harmful, to teach the kids that homosexual relationships are equivalent to heterosexual relationships. There is no reason to deny such relationships exist, but there is no need for the schools to teach a value judgment on such relationships.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Yes, I understand that we differ with regards to what the Church teaches. However, I did not “create a convenient spectrum.” You are insinuating some sort of calculated anti-gay agenda on my part. I am just conveying what I believe, based on my interactions with friends/co-workers/neighbors/family members who identify themselves as gay/lesbian/bi-sexual/etc. (I haven’t personally known anyone who is transsexual and/or intersexed, so I have to rely on more limited data in these cases). I think the spectrum of desires we have are also influenced by our environment, which is why I don’t think that it is a simple matter of being “born gay” or “choosing to be gay.” It is a combination of desires, disordered though they are, combined with environment - upbringing, society, etc.

I am also not trying to " avoid having to deal with how a loving God creates humans who by Church definition must submit to be celibate and alone their entire lives and without the normal free will of the rest of us to marry, or not as we choose." I have clearly stated that I don’t believe that disordered desires are something our loving God gives us - it is part of our fallen nature. He requires us all to live a chaste life, not to murder, not to steal, not to covet. All of the desires desires contrary to “Christian perfection” are part of our fallen nature. With grace from the Holy Spirit, we can indeed “approach Christian perfection” as the Catechism says.

While we don’t agree, I would like to have civil discussion with you SpiritMeadow. In the past, it has devolved into nastiness. Let’s not start off on the wrong foot again by making claims that the other is being hateful by following Church teaching and trying to come to grips with how to live their lives in line with God’s design.

Fair enough if that is what you truly believe. I do think many find homosexuality a choice simply because it makes things easier for them theologically speaking. If you say that this is not the case with you, I accept your word.

 

[rlg94086]

Fair enough if that is what you truly believe. I do think many find homosexuality a choice simply because it makes things easier for them theologically speaking. If you say that this is not the case with you, I accept your word.

Thank you…even though you are misstating my beliefs.

Please read my posts more closely. I contend that it is not a black-white situation. One is not “born” homosexual, but they are born with a varying degree of desire for the same/opposite sex. The way they identify themselves is a choice; however it is strongly influenced by their desires, environment, etc. I just don’t believe that the disordered desires that one has is the essence of one’s being.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Thank you…even though you are misstating my beliefs.

Please read my posts more closely. I contend that it is not a black-white situation. One is not “born” homosexual, but they are born with a varying degree of desire for the same/opposite sex. The way they identify themselves is a choice; however it is strongly influenced by their desires, environment, etc. I just don’t believe that the disordered desires that one has is the essence of one’s being.

I’m sorry-but I can’t agree with that and since there is no empirical evidence out there that I’m aware of, it has the same value as a theory as what I believe-that I was born this way. I wasn’t abused, I wasn’t neglected-I had a pretty “Leave it to Beaver” homelife. My parents were good Catholics, I went to Catholic school and I can tell you that I had no influences in my childhood that would have led me this way.

Going what way? Perhaps you are missing my point…celibate is celibate. Differentiating between a “homosexual” or “heterosexual” celibate is pointless. If a woman is living in a non-married state and doesn’t date, she is celibate, and the struggles against concupiscence is the same.

Like I said-I can’t explain why removing the identity of homosexual and simply viewing myself as “celibate” or “chaste” didn’t work for me-all I can honestly say is that it didn’t feel authentic or honest. And as for desires being part of one’s essence-try removing your heterosexual desires from your identity.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Thank you…even though you are misstating my beliefs.

Please read my posts more closely. I contend that it is not a black-white situation. One is not “born” homosexual, but they are born with a varying degree of desire for the same/opposite sex. The way they identify themselves is a choice; however it is strongly influenced by their desires, environment, etc. I just don’t believe that the disordered desires that one has is the essence of one’s being.

Gotcha. I accept that this is your theory. Mine is that it is mostly genetic. I would accept that the genetic propensity can perhaps be weaker in some than others but that’s as far as i would be willing to go. I agree that some environmental factors can impinge on whether someone acts out one’s natural proclivities. For a very long time, most homosexuals were publically “in the closet” because the fall out from family friends, and the public at large was so great. That changes very little in my opinion. It simply means people stiffle at their psychological detriment (IMO) their true selves. I understand what Fitz means by saying that she self-identifies as homosexual even though she does not follow through with actions that are identified as homosexual. To claim that she is a Catholic celibate woman would I suggest be psychologically damaging in the end.

 

[rlg94086]

Gotcha. I accept that this is your theory. Mine is that it is mostly genetic. I would accept that the genetic propensity can perhaps be weaker in some than others but that’s as far as i would be willing to go. I agree that some environmental factors can impinge on whether someone acts out one’s natural proclivities. For a very long time, most homosexuals were publically “in the closet” because the fall out from family friends, and the public at large was so great. That changes very little in my opinion. It simply means people stiffle at their psychological detriment (IMO) their true selves. I understand what Fitz means by saying that she self-identifies as homosexual even though she does not follow through with actions that are identified as homosexual. To claim that she is a Catholic celibate woman would I suggest be psychologically damaging in the end.

Okay. Though we disagree, I follow your logic up until the last sentence.

How could claiming she is “a Catholic celibate woman” be “psychologically damaging?” She is Catholic. She is a woman. And, she is living a celibate life (due to the call for chastity which we all have).

I didn’t say she had to claim that she has a desire for men. That would be dishonest. My point is that for someone who is living a celibate life by choice, the orientation of their sexual desires (whether disordered or not) seem rather irrelevant.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Okay. Though we disagree, I follow your logic up until the last sentence.

How could claiming she is “a Catholic celibate woman” be “psychologically damaging?” She is Catholic. She is a woman. And, she is living a celibate life (due to the call for chastity which we all have).

I didn’t say she had to claim that she has a desire for men. That would be dishonest. My point is that for someone who is living a celibate life by choice, the orientation of their sexual desires (whether disordered or not) seem rather irrelevant.

Unfortunately, I can’t seem to find the right words to explain why simply identifying as a celibate female didn’t work for me. I did try keeping the “homosexual” out of my mind for a long time. Part of it may be that it is easier to deal with the inclinations to the sin if I keep the definition in my identity.

Also, it’s not like I walk up to people and say "Hi, I’m a homosexual."I’ve never had a heterosexual introduce themselves that way and I don’t either. I haven’t had even really “come out” to people in my own family. As I’ve said before, it’s probably no secret to anyone but I’ve never actually made an official announcement. I don’t dwell on it in everyday life but we are talking about gay issues here, so it is relevant.

 

[Jennifer123]

That is correct - Elementary School. I don’t think the intent is to “convert” kids to homosexuality as some fear. Rather, it is to make homosexuality equal in acceptance to heterosexuality. Part of the aims are fine - tolerance of people who are different. However, as has been pointed out, there are children who feel some same sex attraction during their formative and teen years. By making it equivalent to opposite sex attraction, it may lead some kids to determine falsely that they are “gay” because they have those feelings. This is the problem with such curricula.

Again, I would have less or no problem with something that taught tolerance in general - race, height, weight, religion, accents, looks, sports ability, intelligence, disabilities and homosexuality. All of these things are objects of ridicule/bullying. It would be healthy for kids to understand the idea that no one should be ridiculed, bullied or otherwise discriminated against because they are “different.” However, it is not necessary, and IMO harmful, to teach the kids that homosexual relationships are equivalent to heterosexual relationships. There is no reason to deny such relationships exist, but there is no need for the schools to teach a value judgment on such relationships.

I agree here - but IMHO the agenda is one to turn children to homosexuality that otherwise wouldn’t have thought of it before such messages were given, and those who promote it in the sense of “diversity” and “acceptance” are useful tools.

I think the political agendas shown here on this thread through the various publications listed, which advocate hiding the truth about the motives of the movement, speak for themselves and leads credence to my belief.