Gay Catholic group gets VIP treatment at Vatican for first time

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So a group of lay Catholics gets nice seats at a papal audience and that indicates that the Church is all of a sudden going accept homosexual behavior as being okay? I guess it could’ve been worse. They could have sung morning has broken rather than all are welcome
What I see is a real movement to encourage and open up to those engaging in gay behavior. But when these individuals get into the Church, I think they are hearing Church teaching, i.e., turn from a life of sin to a fuller life in Christ. (at least from orthodox priests/parishes) Have no idea how that is working out from the Church’s point of view or the gay viewpoint. 😉 None of my business I guess.
 
More confusion. More mixed signals. I am just about ready to take my Rosary, my LOTH, my Baltimore Catechism and become a hermit! I can come out once a year for confession and receive Holy Communion, then go back. The past 50 years have been confusing enough. Now all this. Something is broken folks.:confused:
Nothing is broken. I lived through the same time period. The Church has always gone through trials throughout its history. This is just the latest version. 50 years is almost a drop in the bucket, which is not meant to diminish this issue. But ever since the Sexual - without love - Revolution began in the late 1960s, who was promoting it? Certainly not the Church.

As a matter of fact, things are being fixed. Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict and now, Pope Francis are and have turned things around. Issues are being addressed and seminaries are seeing more men. However, to quote one director, “We are looking for quality not quantity.”

Be hopeful.

God bless,
Ed
 
Where does it say in the cat’m that it’s a “moral” disorder?
It says it’s “objectively” disordered.

Are you a doctor and specialist in this area? That you are saying with such fact and certainty that it is “spiritual” in origin and not biological?

So…God made people with same-sex attraction, but he doesn’t make people have sinful inclinations. Therefore…same-sex attraction is not sinful. But this is what the church teaches–that SS-attraction is indeed not sinful…just as opposite-attraction is not sinful.
Right?

.
I believe that the Church teaches that one of the effects of original sin is an inclination to evil. Because of original sin, we all are born with disordered inclinations. That is not because God created sinful inclinations; they are a result of original sin, and can of course be increased by actual sin. The purpose of the sacraments and the Church is to overcome this state which resulted from the Fall.
 
Certainly they can be blessed, and there’s no reason a partner can’t be blessed. A relationship and marriage are different, of course.

I think we ought not worry too much about slippery slopes. When we worry too much about sliding down a slippery slope we risk sliding down the back side.
This group is for gay marriage, as stated on their website. I’m glad to hear they were there.

Peace,
Ed
 
This group is for gay marriage, as stated on their website. I’m glad to hear they were there.

Peace,
Ed
Yes, Pope Francis has been very clear on this issue - he does take a stand against gay marriage. That hasn’t received a lot of press, but enough.
 
The melody was Schubert, right? But the words??? We’re talking about singing the Hail Mary prayer, correct?
Honestly, I’m not sure. I think there is more than one “Ave Maria.”
 
Where does it say in the cat’m that it’s a “moral” disorder?
It says it’s “objectively” disordered.
Homosexual tendency is objectively disordered because it is morally disordered. It is contrary to natural law and the order of creation. It isn’t for biological reasons that homosexuality is called disordered and that people with that tendency are called to chastity,but for moral reasons.
Are you a doctor and specialist in this area? That you are saying with such fact and certainty that it is “spiritual” in origin and not biological?
I’m not a doctor or a specialist. I say it is a spiritual malady because desires are spiritual. Desires come from the heart and mind,and disordered desires come from the corruption of the heart and mind. Genetic material is not the source of thoughts and feelings,the heart and mind is.
So…God made people with same-sex attraction, but he doesn’t make people have sinful inclinations. Therefore…same-sex attraction is not sinful. But this is what the church teaches–that SS-attraction is indeed not sinful…just as opposite-attraction is not sinful. Right?
It isn’t right to say that God made people with same-sex attraction. He makes people with a sense of natural moral law implanted in their consciences.

And the Church does not teach that the homosexual tendency is not sinful. That is the teaching of some modern Catholic theologians and priests and bishops’ conferences.

And the homosexual tendency is not simply about being attracted to someone of the same sex. People are attracted to others of the same sex for other reasons than sexual desire. Homosexuality is about sexually desiring someone of the same sex.
 
I didn’t write those words. They are from a catechetical article. I gave the link to it.

Sin is not just something a person causes to happen,it comes from the heart. Sinful acts are preceded by sinful desires.
Yes but your interpretation was your own. Sin, whether in thought or in action must be willed. Man is the subject of sin, not the object of it. Temptation is not sin.
 
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/i..._Bohumil_Petrik_CNA_4_CNA_11_19_14.jpgVatican City, Feb 19, 2015 / 05:19 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Vatican sources have cast doubt on reports of VIP treatment for New Ways Ministry, an American LGBT activist group that rejects Catholic teaching, at Pope Francis’ most recent general audience.

A source in the Prefecture for the Pontifical Household told CNA that “no requests are rejected” for the general audience seating in the so-called “reparto speciale,” which has a capacity of about 500 people.

While media reports said the group sat in a front section with dignitaries and special Catholic groups, this portrayal is questionable. The “reparto speciale” section of St. Peter’s Square is not considered part of VIP treatment. The seats are available on a “first come, first served basis,” and no chairs are specially reserved for a group of pilgrims.

Another Vatican source underscored that the press office knew nothing about the presence of the group at the general audience. He pointed out that “the group was treated as any other group of faithful in the square.”

The New Ways Ministry group of about 50 people were among the many people gathered for the Feb. 18 general audience in St. Peter’s Square.

The group’s leaders wereFrancis DeBernardo and Sister Jeannine Gramick, S.L., respectively the executive director and co-founder of the organization. New Ways Ministry promotes LGBT activism in the Catholic Church. Its ministry to homosexuals has been rejected as theologically unsound by Church authorities, but DeBernardo and Sr. Gramick often have sympathetic ears in the news media.

Both the Associated Press and Reuters claimed the group had “VIP seats” at the audience and portrayed the group’s attendance as unprecedented, though they did not cite Vatican officials saying so. David Gibson of Religion News Service told the New York Daily News the group’s attendance was a “substantial change of direction for the Catholic Church” and “not just a symbolic move.”

DeBernardo and Sr. Gramick claimed that Wednesday marked the first time the group was welcomed at a papal general audience, while previous requests had been ignored during the pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

According to CNA’s source in the Pontifical Household “this declaration is simply misleading, as any of the faithful can access general audiences: they can simply ask the prefecture for the tickets, which are free.”

“If a Catholic nun asks for a series of tickets in the ‘reparto speciale’, it is likely that she is given the tickets,” the source in the Pontifical Household stressed.

The source also emphasized that the procedure would be different for the “baciamano” custom in which people are able to greet the Pope personally for a short time and kiss his hand. In such cases, the prefecture decides whether to grant a request to attend.

A list of the groups that take part in the general audience is customarily read at the audience’s conclusion and published in the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano. The official list for Wednesday names the group accompanied by Sr. Gramick only as “a group of lay people accompanied by a Sister of Loretto,” not mentioning New Ways Ministry by name.

“If a group simply asks to be mentioned in the list of groups, the procedure is more informal,” CNA’s source in the Pontifical Household explained.

The Vatican source said that “when a group makes a request (to be included in the list) usually the name is included in the list of pilgrim groups present. It’s not clear if she presented herself as written or in another way.”

Media reports also said that the request was forwarded by the apostolic nuncio in the U.S. and by the Archbishop of San Francisco. The Archdiocese of San Francisco did not respond to a request for comment by deadline.

In a July 2014 interview, DiBernardo discussed New Ways Ministry’s February journey to Rome to take part in a general audience and to try to meet with Pope Francis.

The interview was published on the website of the “Ways of Love” conference, which was held in Rome in October 2014 at the start of the Extraordinary Synod on the Family. The conference featured several speakers who rejected Catholic teaching. It was sponsored by the European Forum of LGBT Christian Groups with the financial support of the government of the Netherlands.

The conference organizers included DeBernardo and Marianne Duddy-Burke of the U.S.-based group Dignity USA.

New Ways Ministry and Dignity USA are part of the Equally Blessed Coalition, a group that has received hundreds of thousands of dollars from the U.S.-based Arcus Foundation, which spends millions to support LGBT activism every year. In 2014 the foundation gave Dignity USA a $200,000 grant to support the Equally Blessed Coalition’s work to “influence and counter the narrative of the Catholic Church and its ultra-conservative affiliates.”

“The effort will build advocacy and visibility in connection with two special events, the Synod of the Family and World Youth Day,” the foundation said in the grant listing on its website.

feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/catholicnewsagency/dailynews?d=yIl2AUoC8zA
http://forums.catholic-questions.or...r/catholicnewsagency/dailynews/~4/M9Dht8VepJA

Full article…
 
The group’s leaders were Francis DeBernardo and Sister Jeannine Gramick, S.L., respectively the executive director and co-founder of the organization. New Ways Ministry promotes LGBT activism in the Catholic Church. Its ministry to homosexuals has been rejected as theologically unsound by Church authorities, but DeBernardo and Sr. Gramick often have sympathetic ears in the news media.
Interesting. According to the link posted on another thread (here), Sr Gramick was “permanently prohibited from any pastoral work involving homosexual persons.” Yet apparently here she was leading a group from New Ways Ministry. I wonder if that prohibition had been lifted?
 
The Church does not teach that homosexual orientation is not sinful. That is an opinion that only became current among some Catholic teachers in recent years. Sin originates in the heart,not in the act of sin. Homosexual desire is contrary to natural law and the order of creation.
I think we need to back up and define what we mean by “homosexual orientaion”

The Catechism says the following:
Chastity and homosexuality
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 **tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”**142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. (2333)
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (2347)
It’s not sinful to have homosexual attraction, just like it’s not sinful to have heterosexual attraction when not married. The sin parts comes in when we consciously act on those attractions, whether physically or emotionally.

A chaste homosexual isn’t in a state of sin. On the other hand, a non-chaste homosexual person is gravely sinning just like the non-chaste heterosexual person.

Note: a chaste homosexual who disagrees with the Church and believes that homosexual acts are not sinful is a heretic and is sinning due to being a heretic, not strictly due to homosexuality. Also, it’s possible for a chaste homosexual who is very vocal about “homosexual rights” to be guilty of the sin of scandal. But a truly chaste homosexual is does not sin simply because he/she suffers from same-sex attraction.
 
It’s not sinful to have homosexual attraction, just like it’s not sinful to have heterosexual attraction when not married. The sin parts comes in when we consciously act on those attractions, whether physically or emotionally.
Sin also occurs in the mind and heart,even if it is not acted out.

Homosexual attraction is not equivalent to heterosexual attraction. Heterosexual attraction is part of the order of creation and natural law. So if it is not lustful,it is not sinful. But homosexual attraction is intrinsically evil because it is contrary to the order of creation and natural law,and if it is willed,then it is sinful.
A chaste homosexual isn’t in a state of sin. On the other hand, a non-chaste homosexual person is gravely sinning just like the non-chaste heterosexual person.
Note: a chaste homosexual who disagrees with the Church and believes that homosexual acts are not sinful is a heretic and is sinning due to being a heretic, not strictly due to homosexuality. Also, it’s possible for a chaste homosexual who is very vocal about “homosexual rights” to be guilty of the sin of scandal. But a truly chaste homosexual is does not sin simply because he/she suffers from same-sex attraction.
Homosexual attraction is not simply attraction to others of the same sex,it is sexual desire for others of the same sex. And sexual desire is not just passively felt,it is also willed. A person cannot have homosexual attraction and be truly chaste in his heart and mind at the same time.

catechism.cc/articles/homosexuality-sin.htm

< 4. Sins are acts involving the intellect (knowing) and the will (choosing). An orientation is not, in and of itself, an act or a sin.
5. The homosexual orientation itself is intrinsically evil, but is not itself a sin.
6. Since the homosexual orientation is intrinsically evil, any and all acts, whether sexual or not, by which a human person knowingly chooses to move toward, cooperate with, reinforce, or act upon, a homosexual orientation is itself a sin, either venial or mortal. >

< The claim that the homosexual orientation is not, in and of itself, a moral evil, or worse, that it is part of God’s plan, as if it were in some way good.

The Bible teaches that God created Adam and Eve, before the fall from grace to sin, and that all those things which God created, including Adam and Eve, are good. The Bible also condemns not only homosexual acts, but the orientation itself:

[1 Corinthians 6]
{6:9} Can it be you do not know that the iniquitous shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray: neither fornicators, nor those serving idols, nor adulterers,
{6:10} nor the effeminate, nor males who sleep with males, nor thieves, nor the avaricious, nor the inebriated, nor those who speak evil, nor the rapacious shall possess the kingdom of God.

Now the expression ‘males who sleep with males’ (masculorum concubitores) refers to homosexuals who commit homosexual acts. Although the verse only mentions males, it is certain that female homosexual acts are also condemned because female homosexuality has the same contradictions of the moral order as male homosexuality. The former is not mentioned because the verse only cites certain examples from which one may derive other examples; it is not an exhaustive list of all possible mortal sins. Also, in Romans 1:26-27, Scripture condemns both male and female homosexuality.

Even though this list is not a comprehensive list of the evils found among human persons, it still includes the term ‘the effeminate’ (molles), which refers, not to homosexual acts themselves, but to the homosexual orientation. Certainly, if an act is evil, then the tendency toward that act cannot be good. The Bible condemns both evil and the tendency toward evil. Therefore, it is a heresy to believe that the homosexual orientation itself is good, or that it is approved or blessed by God, for the homosexual orientation is inherently directed toward acts that are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral. The Bible clearly condemns the orientation (molles) as well as the act (masculorum concubitores).

Now it is true that the homosexual orientation, if it is not willed, is not itself a sin, but it is nevertheless heretical to claim that it is not a severe moral disorder or that it is not fittingly referred to as a kind of evil. >
 
Yes but your interpretation was your own. Sin, whether in thought or in action must be willed. Man is the subject of sin, not the object of it. Temptation is not sin.
Homosexual attraction is not just temptation that is passively experienced,it is a perverse sexual desire that is willed.
 
Where does it say in the cat’m that it’s a “moral” disorder?
It says it’s “objectively” disordered.

Are you a doctor and specialist in this area? That you are saying with such fact and certainty that it is “spiritual” in origin and not biological?

So…God made people with same-sex attraction, but he doesn’t make people have sinful inclinations. Therefore…same-sex attraction is not sinful. But this is what the church teaches–that SS-attraction is indeed not sinful…just as opposite-attraction is not sinful.
Right?


.
Wrong wrong wrong!!! Are you insinuating that the church regards SSA the same way it regards OSA? Sorry. Never seen where SSA is taught as being God’s deliberate plan or design for man right from the beginning. That is what is taught of OSA…that it is good, not simply that it is “not a sin” but a good thing directly intended by God. SSA is not intendeds by God. It is a terrible accident resulting from Adam’s offence just like all other inclinations to evil including attraction to other unnatural things. It is no more sin than pedophile’s attraction to children, yet neither it nor the pedophile attraction are in any way good or neutral. They are a concupiscence. An inclination to sin. And this is what a spiritual illness is. Not a single inclination to sin is called good or neutral in any sense. That it is not a sin refers only to the lack of co-operation on the part of the person afflicted/affected. Thus, a kleptomaniac’s inclination to theft is not a good thing at all, nor neutral, but something needing a spiritual cure. Yet it is not a sin until the klepto steals. Catholics no longer believe in divinization and transformation it seems. Just sticking to the “not a sin” line is all that matters? Too protestant I’m afraid. There is such a thing as theosis.
 
Interesting. According to the link posted on another thread (here), Sr Gramick was “permanently prohibited from any pastoral work involving homosexual persons.” Yet apparently here she was leading a group from New Ways Ministry. I wonder if that prohibition had been lifted?
Interesting indeed. She also wrote a book called A Collection of Positive Catholic Writings on Gay & Lesbian Issues. One review on Amazon states: " This glowing endorsement of the gay lifestyle deceptively uses the term "Catholic. There’s nothing Catholic about it. For a true Catholic position, read the works of John Harvey or call your local Courage chapter.”

In addition she has been recognized by at least two dissident groups, Dignity USA, an organization devoted to promoting Catholic acceptance of homosexuality, to “counter the narrative of the Catholic Church” on same-sex relationships, and Call to Action which promotes all manner of dissent from fundamental church teachings.
 
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